I wanted to start another thread on this topic because I would like others opinions on what they think constituted mind control in both religion, cults, and advertising tactics.

Eljay stated that he thought Scientology was mind control. I don't know much about Scientology. He also mentioned Eckankar ~which I was involved in for a few years.

I don't consider Eckankar to be mind control any more than your average methodists church would be, but I think it is patterned after your average cult or religion, using similar propaganda tactics.

Propaganda is probably a mild form of mind control. Brain washing is a stronger form of mind control.

MK ultra was a government project that used trauma induced mind control.

Advertising, repeating the same annoying things over and over is a form of mind control.

Even movies and news is a form of mind control. There seem to be many levels of this thing we call mind control.

Here is the post that started this subject. What do you think? Is your church to be considered mind control? If not, how is it different from Eckankar or Scientology?

i worship in my own way in my living room......no church...


and yes. i do practice mind control on myself......

Interesting. It sounds a bit like self hypnosis. I think mind control on ones self is a good idea.

sort of.....i use a tremendous amount of visualization .....some meditation.....yoga......the occasional Vodka Martini, dry, shaken, with a twist

it seems to work for me...

The thing that really works best for me is the yoga type deep breathing and very little television.

the "control of breath" is the most difficult part for me...but with practice i am improving......

if i could do yoga at my desk......???? hmmmm.....maybe there is a "seated in a chair" position.... that would work???

I think that many people get "mind control" mixed up with "brainwashing".

Mind control is a good and desirable thing, when it means "getting control of one's own mind".

Brainwashing involves taking control of the mind of another.

As noted above, no religion (or business, or social club, or any group of humans, large or small) can be said to be exempt from the charge of "brainwashing" to a greater or lesser degree. That's just how people are; there's always going to be a pecking order, and there's always going to be someone with an ulterior motive, and there's always going to be someone who wants to be in charge--and of course there are always those who want to be told what to do more than anything in the world. (I use the term "always" loosely here, not to suggest "infinity" or "forever".)

Those who are motivated to gain control over others come in many varieties and flavors. Some see themselves as being benevolent and fair-minded, and some are basely and overtly self-interested, but the attitude toward control is really the frosting on the cake. The cake itself is control of others' thoughts and actions. (Mmmmm.... cake.... ) I hope this was helpful. yours in Chaos, Scarlett

Very well put. One could even say that the process of education (at least as it's practiced in the public primary schools in this country) is almost completely defined by "control of others' thoughts and actions".

So really, like any other technology, "control of others' thoughts or actions" is not intrinsically good or bad. Its use must be measured by the results of its application - Does a specific application of the technology result in a good or bad outcome?

Well, I was raised as a Christian, and there's no question in my mind that the Bible is designed for mind control. It an extreme guilt trip.

This is true whether it was entirely made up by man, or whether it's a message from God. Either way, it's still a guilt trip.

The Bible starts out with the story of Adam and Eve and claims that mankind feel from grace from God. Everying is automatically 'guilty' of this original sin and needs to make atonements for it.

The whole book is all about the terrible thigns that happen to people if they step out of line. It's is nothing more than example after example of how God will treat you good if you worship him, and badly if you fail to.

The Old Testament is full of this kind of thing. All of God's solutions to problems are violent and immature. They are the kinds of solutions you'd expect from a moron who only knows how to solve problems by getting physicsal and making threats. There isn't an intelligent solution in the book.

The God can't even keep a promise. He supposedly guides his people to a "promised land" and when the people finally get there after much ordeal, there are other people living on the land. So this God's solution is to ask his chosen people to murder the heathens who are living on the promised land. What kind of a God would pull such a sick stunt as that?

This is the same God who said "Thou shalt not kill?", and now he's telling eveyone to murder women and children in a supposedly 'promised land'?

I think the purpose of this book is to condition people to believe that no matter what the book says it's ok. The God can be compeltely contrary to its supposed character and that's still ok, because humans are the one's who have been bad, and God Almighty is never in the wrong no matter what.

Later, in the New Testament the blood and guts tactics doesn't stop. The God offers up his own Son as a sacarificial lamb to lay an even bigger guilt trip on people.

The book pretends like this is some sort of loving 'gift' from their God, but in truth it's the biggest guilt trip ever devised. It's not a gift at all becasue if you reject the so-called 'gift' you go to hell.

It's a guilt trip of the hightest magnitude. It's all just brainwashing to lay on guilt trips that if you don't worship this God you'll be considered to be a really bad person who has no moral values or feelings of resentment whatsoever.

It's the ulimate mind control without a doubt. I personally don't believe that it came from any all-wise supreme being, it's too full of underhanded brainwashing tricks. Tricks that are so typical of men, not at all the kind of thing you'd expect from a genuinely all-wise creator.

The very idea that we are being held hostage to the action of people like Adam and Eve and that we are being held responsible for the crucifixion of Christ is utterly disgusting.

I don't believe for one second that this is the relationship that we have with our creator. If the book is true then we should all hang our heads in grave shame. Having accepted the 'gift' of the crucifixion doesn't change a damn thing. It still means that we are nothing more than pathetic failures.

People who romanticize the crucifixion have to be the sickest people of all. At the very best the believers of this religion should be sorely ashamed of themselves if they believe it to be true. No one should be proud to proclaim that the Bible is true. It's the most depressing pathetic story ever written.

To discover that it were true would be the most depressing and shameful thing I can imagine. It certainly isn't anything that I would brag about.

I can't see it being anything more than a truly sick and peverted brainwashing tactic that definitely qualifies in every way to fit under the definition of a cult.

Like I say, even if it were true, it would be the most dispicable and and shameful truth ever known. Not only does it place us as having blatantly and rebelliously rejected our creator, but it also portrays that creator to be very unwise and perverted in its own solutions to problems.

If we truly were created in the image of that God then maybe that's why we're as sick and perverted as it claims. We never really had a chance to be anything better than the sick demented being that created us.

If Christianity isn't a cult then there is no such thing as a cult.

I know I personally did feel the heavy burden of the guilt trip concerning Jesus dying for my sins. As a very small child I did not feel I would like someone to take the blame and die for my sins. Neither did I feel I should be responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. It just did not make any sense to me and it did not seem ethical or fair. I was only in first grade.

So it really confuses me why anyone would accept this story at face value unless it was force fed to them under the typical mind control methods of repetitive drilling it into peoples brains, and admonishing those who did not accept this idea.

I think religion (Christianity and the others too) is not exempt from being called mind control. I don't think a Christian can sit in judgment of Scientology or Eckankar and call it mind control when they don't take a close look at their own belief system and at least question themselves about WHY they believe it.

JB

The word "cult" is just a slur people use about religions that arnt their own.

Yes!

"Not intrinsically good or bad"

You said it all right there, Sky.

Learning this in all areas of life.

Well, who would want to believe in the Bible if they truly have a choice?

If you sat down with someone who had no preconcieved notions about religion and ask them the following question how do you feel people would naturally respond?

QUESTION:

Would you prefer to believe that your creator is pleased with you, or would you rather believe that you have been bad and your creator is disapointed with you?

Which would most people chose to believe if they have a choice?

I personally believe that any sane person would rather believe that their creator is pleased with their behavior.

So why is it then that so many people go to such extremes to support a religion that claims that they have fallen from grace from their creator.

Especially when it's ENTIRELY faith-based?

Why would anyone even remotely want to have faith that they have been so bad that their creator had to sacrific his own son in a horrid bloody way to pay for their disgraceful impudence?

I sure as hell wouldn't want to believe that on pure faith!

If there isn't any evidence to suggest that this has to be true, there is absolutely no reason on God's green earth why I would want to accept it on pure faith!

I would be willing to believe any evidence to the contrary. Especially when there is absolutely no evidence to back up this outrageous claim that I am being asked to believe on pure faith alone.

Why would I actually fight or argue for this to be the true situation if there is any evidence at all the refutes it?

As far as I'm concerned there is evidence that refutes it. This story claims that mankind is responsible for the imperfections in the world. It claims that mankinds disobedience of God is what caused DEATH and EVIL to come into the world!

Well, we know now, that this isn't true!

Death and suffering were around on this planet long before mankind ever came onto the scene.

Therefore I'm being asked to believe in something horrible on pure faith when there actually exists evidence that refutes it!

We can't be repsonsible for bringing death and suffering into the world because death and suffering existed long before we did!

The story has been exposed to be a lie!

We have actual evidence against it, and no reason to believe it at all, other than to believe it on pure faith.

But why would we even want to believe such and ugly terrible story on pure faith? Especially when we have clear evidence that refutes it?

It has to be brainwashing!

No intelligent sane person is going to chose to believe that they are guilty of such shameful disgrace as the Bible demands when there is clear evidence that the Bible can't be true!

Anyone who would rather fight against that evidence in favor of believing this story has to be brainwashed.

There is simply no good reason to even want the story to be true! Unless they are totally obcessed with lust for eternal life and they have been convinced that the Bible is the only way to win that prize!

It's a lust-based religion. The only reason to want to believe it is out of lust for eternal life.

There is no other rational reason to want to believe it.

There are many gods but there is only One True God.

The Jealous God offers salvation for those that choose to follow him.

Yeah, but he had to create a need for salvation before he could offer it.

IMHO the religion might have had some chance of being legit if it merely offered eternal life to those who choose it but not condemn those who aren't interested.

It was the condemnation of those who refuse to believe it that was the nemesis that reveals it as the moronic brainwashing schemes of men.

No truly righteous God would be such a jerk.

And the Lord spake unto Elvis, "Thou hast spoken against me Elvis, and I curse thee to have thy blue suede shoes trod upon for all time..."

How can he do this? Because he is God! He is Ruler, Lord, and King. He is a "jealous" God (Ex. 20:5) in the sense that he wants to be the exclusive object of our devotion because he made us for himself. He wants us to respect him so much that all other objects of affection pale into insignificance by comparison. This is what it means to "fear" God (read Deut. 10:12), and this is what God wanted Abraham to demonstrate (22:12).

In this sense, the spirituality of the Bible is very different from most contemporary western spirituality--including "Christian" spirituality. We want spirituality, but we want it from a "domesticated God." Just as we domesticate a horse so that he uses his power to pull our wagon, so we want to domesticate God so that he will fulfill our agendas. We want him to be like a transactional counselor, who begins the session by asking us what we want to accomplish, how he can help us deal with the problems we define so we can get on with pursuing our goals for our lives.

If this is the god you want, stay away from the God of the Bible! Because he will never cooperate with your domestication project. He reserves the right to set the agenda and call on you to follow his plans, even if that means scrapping your plans and parting with what is dearest to you (RELATIONSHIPS; PLANS; POSSESSIONS; TALENTS; etc.). This is why C. S. Lewis portrayed him as a lion in his Narnian Chronicles. After meeting Aslan, one of the children tells her brother about him. "Is he a tame lion?" he asks. "Oh no," she answers, "He is not tame or safe at all!"

HMMM? I will have to think on this for awhile

Exactly.

It's a picture of an extremely needy God who is desperate for respect so much that he has to threaten people into respecting him.

This is the mentality of a desperate mortal man who hasn't earned respect and is therefore demanding it or he'll lope off your head.

This is not at all the type of behavior we'd expect from an all-wise benevolent God.

Of course, as you also point out, maybe God isn't all-wise and benevolent. Maybe that's just our unwaranted pipe dream.

I'm in total agreement with that. Our creator could be a desperate egotistical demon!

The question is simply, "Do I want to believe that on faith without proof?"

What is my motivation for wanting to believe that such a thing is true?

Yes, you are right, if I'm going to have to believe in a God on pure faith, give me a domesticated God that is as least as nice as me and doesn't bite.

Then I don't have a problem believing it on pure faith.

At least it makes for nice wishful thinking.

But I see no reason to beleive in a desperate God who get's peeved at eveyone who doesn't bow down a worship him. Especially when I'm asked to do that on pure faith.

If I die and come face to face at the mercy of such a demon, I guess I'll have no choice but to deal with reality at the time.

In the meantime, I'm going to put my faith in the idea that God is at least as nice as me, and hopefully nicer.

In truth, I'd rather Atheism turns out to be reality than to discover that God is an egotistical pig desperate for attention.

I'd rather there be no God at all than to discover that my creator is a lesser compassionate being than myself. That would truly be a nightmare beyond nightmares.

Well, all I can tell you is that some of your assumptions about the Jealous God were innacurate. Perhaps like most people you were told wrong about him (her) at an early age. I suppose Im lucky in the sense that I was raised in a "religious intense" enviroment but my parents never "sugercoated" G-D for me. He (She) is not tame nor safe at all.