Generally though - it is not the "disagreeing" that is not tolerated, but the mere act of questioning. Again - the missing element to your analogy is whether or not the circumstance determines that the institution is in the wrong - or the individual is being rebelious. Certainly - if the individual is merely rebelious, than a premise of "mind control" would be a false assumption. But to make a blanket claim such as the above does not differentiate this fact.

Naturally - a group of people who do not percieve the one in disagreement in true rebellion are going to listen to reason as to what the objection is. But when you are involved in a circumstance where there is blind obedience to a single individual - be it any institution - you have a "Cultish Mind Control" at play. Granted, some endeavors are dependended on a single individual having control over all of the decision making process' - I work in such an environment. But disagreement in this setting is more often than not - rebellion to the understood norms. Dismisal from this type of situation is just procrastination on the part of the individual who is in rebellion from not resigning on their own.

In terms of your sifting your Scientology experience through Liftons criteriea for thought reform - you should consider that Lifton's study was not analogous to the experience. Lifton focused on "brainwashing", as it pertained to those who were held captive. They did not have a choice in this matter to walk away - as anyone in Scientology is free to chose to do. The coined phrase (as it were) "Cult Mind Control" comes out of the work of Hassan, Singer, and others who's study of Lifton brought about the insights into the more recent expansion of Cult's in the country who's tactics are destructive. The People's Temple would be an extreme - but apt example of this type of control. I would not equate the tactics of Scientology with that of the North Koreans and attempt to draw analogies there-of. There is little comparison there - the analysis has no value. If you are more interested in this though - I would recommend checking out Hassan's "Combatting Cult Mind Control". His criteria for determing whether a group is utilizing "mind control" tactics is more in reference to the type of group that Scientology is - as opposed to the criteria of Lifton - who's control group was prisoners.

That would depend on what was being taught - and whether or not your actions were from true insight into the topic, or mere rebellion.

I think that the issue of rebellion is being confused with the idea of rejecting a false teaching. The example of your tarot card group is one of rebellion. Plus - participation in your group would certainly require that some basic premises be accepted. Such as - there is an accepted truth that goes along with what you are doing.

I think that the train is off the track here on the discussion of "Cult mind control" as it were.
I'm losing site of the point you ae trying to make in terms of the controls of the subject. I'd hardly call a Tarot card group as analogous to the People's Temple.

It all depends on what is understood by the term "Cult". Without some sort of definition to establish a premise, we could call anything from Kindergarden to my local Bridge club a Cult.

I tend to refer to groups such as the People's Temple, Manson's "Family", Moonies, etc as fitting a certain criteria for Cultish activities and therefore they become the groups that exibit "Cult Mind Control" as my example for a definition. Having spent the past 20+ years studying "Christian Cults" - a different sort of animal as it were, my understanding of the semantic of defining the word is not one that would be found in Webster's. Based on the criteria that determines a "Christian Cult", it can be demonstrated that there are other movements which are also Cults, as they put the same controls into practice.

Eljay said:


So how then should I interpret this statement of yours? (from the seminal post that started this entire thread) I can only assume that "There is little comparison there - the analysis has no value."

Well the reason I am a skeptic and atheist is because I wish to control my own mind, garbage in, garbage out.

If you have no data to back up your claims, if the math doesn't work out . . . then your full of crap.

If you are talking about forced Hypnosis, or the kind of tactics discussed in the vid I posted which no one commented on . . . then that is to me a criminal form of mind control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg

I see most religions as more a persuasion . . . but never the less your cannot deny that a desire to form the ideas of a group of people can be called mind control, and depending on the tactics determine the severity.
Again back to the fact that words are almost never black and white, but shades of gray.

It would be great if you watched the video on good and evil. The speaker presents a study done where people were yoked out of there homes taken to prison and subjected to severe mind control tactics . . . the figures are astounding on how many could be manipulated into sadistic behaviors.

People are social creatures, our environment and social expectations form large parts of our identity.

That's a good reason.

Do you think that in order to control your own mind, you must be a skeptic and atheist?

I took the position that I am my own final authority in either regard. (Science or religion.)

We are all skeptical of the flying spaghetti monster.

We are all skeptical of Santa Claus . . . usually pretty young.

If your a Christian your skeptical of paganism, if your a Hindu your skeptical of Christianity.

I dont think anyone still believes in Zues, or Odin . . .

I just take it one step further . . . . .


____________________________

After re-reading my previous post, I want to amend it a bit.

"If you have no data to back up your claims, if the math doesn't work out . . . then your full of crap."

I should say your full of crap or really good at guessing /lucky or whatnot.

I have loads of "data" to back up my personal conclusions, but it is not for the general public. I don't intend to spend time trying to prove my conclusions to others because I could be all wrong and I would have wasted valuable time leading some poor fool down the wrong path.

I don't much care for math.

I am more into being creative and finding my own path through the chaos. I like to encourage people to use their imaginations in speculating possibilities.

I think the evidence is beginning to point to the idea that we are living in a dream-like or holographic-like reality.

If this turns out to be true, there is no limit to the possibilities of weird stuff happening when the mechanics of that get messed with.

jb

We, the First Church of Xenu and its many associates, are dedicated to exposing the lies regarding our Dark Lord and Master, Xenu Etrawl. For many years, dissenters from the Dark Lord have claimed that he is a villain, tyrant, and terrorist. However, these statements are false!

Xenu was a benevolent ruler, with only the best interests of the Galactic Confederacy in mind. Seventy-five million years ago, the Confederacy was in an awful state of affairs. Gross overpopulation threatened to destroy the already fragile ecosystems and economies of many planets in the Galactic Confederacy, and Xenu knew that he had to do something. He could stand idly by and watch the planets destroy themselves, or he could take action. Thankfully, our Dark Lord knew what he had to do.

With his Galactic Fleet consisting of millions of space planes, Xenu used an innocent ruse of "income tax inspections" and used the friendly help of pyschiatrists to lure and administer harmless injections to billions of Confederate aliens into his fleet of ships. They were to be the sacraficial lambs for the greater good. They were subsequently frozen and packed into the space planes for removal. This was completely painless for the citizens involved.

Taking our alien lambs to Teegeeack (known as "Earth" to humans) our Dark Lord Xenu ordered his Exalted Renegades to latch the aliens to volcanoes where he quickly and humanely eliminated them. However, Xenu did not take into account the souls of the alien lambs. The souls, called "Thetans" by some, flew free. Xenu knew that they needed to be re-educated to forget about what had transpired, so he ordered the Exalted Renegades to catch the souls in Elecric Ribbons and re-educate them using a 3D Super-Colossal Motion Picture. The souls were given visions of modern worldly religions and then released to the world suffering from a loss of identity.

The re-educated souls flocked together to form clusters and inhabited the few remaining bodies that survived the explosions. These souls have transferred from person to person throughout each individual's life cycle. These clusters of souls are known to some as "Body Thetans," but the true followers of Xenu refer to them merely as "Soul Clusters." Some believe they cause all of the problems of mankind. However, this is not true. Instead, they grant us immense inner power.

But, as many things are, it was not to be. During the mass alien Exodus, Lord Xenu's Exalted Renegades were locked in heated battle with a group of evil disbelievers who addressed themselves as "Loyal Officers." They may have been loyal, but not to Xenu. Rumor has it that the Loyal Officers are trying to reform, but that has mostly been dismissed as nonsense.

The Loyal Officers were defeated once, then retreated to the dark corners of the Confederate territory to regroup and rebuild. With a surprise attack, the Loyal Officers ambushed our merciful Dark Lord. They ruthlessly enslaved him in a force-field mountain prison that is powered by an eternally-charged battery.

We at the First Church of Xenu feel this is a gross injustice. Dark Lord Xenu is falsely imprisioned by a terrorist regime that charges millions of currency units to hear its tale regarding this truth we have told you. They skew our truths. They try to spread lies about our Master, saying he was a tyrant and an evil dictator. These accusations are simply unfounded. Lord Xenu only sought out an answer to the Galactic Confederacy's overpopulation problem. A viable solution.

We, the true aliens of the Confederacy, support our wrongly imprisioned Dark Lord. As we speak our teams, comprised of millions of the best scientific minds that the Confederacy has to offer, are working on a way to disable the force-field to Xenu's cage. The rebirth of our Master is at hand. We will crush all who oppose us. Our number is many, our power is great. Soon the world will know the truth about our Dark Lord and Master.

HAIL XENU!

Kingdom of the Cults


Read it.....

Did you read the earlier post I wrote where I drew the line from Lifton through Hassen and Singer? As I said - you are better off investigating the basic backgrounds of each to determine for yourself what is meant by "Cult mind control". Starting off with Lifton can certainly bring insight - but it doesn't end there. It would be like asking one to draw references of the warfare tactics in Vietnam by studying the Revolutionary War. It has values, but there have been lessons learned and tactics revised through examination of more current phenomina.

That is pretty much the point. If you prefer to examine Scientology against Lifton's criteria, and not bother to venture into Hassan's or Singers, are you getting a complete and accurate picture of the points I made? If you are satisfied with your conclusion - then so be it. At the time of my involvement with a destructive Cult - I was not. I read everything I could get my hands on - From Lifton, to "Snapping" to Hassan to Singer, Kennedy, Walter Martin, etc. Having done that - I just concluded that Lifton was not enough to understand the controls of the Cult I was in - but invaluable to understanding all the others who came after him.

I did watch it, and think that it is a relevant video to the discussion here on Mind control. While I don't think hypnosis as a direct means of control is used specifically within Cults - certain group involvements bring about a similar effect without having to be repetative. The constant kneel-stand-sit of Catholicism comes to mind here. After a while, the group simply does it on demand without thinking about why they are in each position.

I tend to agree that most religions have some form of mind control - though few use it destructively. Educational systems pretty much employ the same devices, more often than not, leading to good - rather than harm. As long as the individual is encouraged to seek out the information on their own to see that it is true, this breaks the chains of bondage to those who demand the interpretations be blindly accepted.

My only point was that it was your "preference to examine Scientology against Lifton's criteria", not mine. Were it not for your doing so, I never would have.

(<pointing> "He started it!" )

I understand how a good grasp of Lifton's work would help in understanding the works of later people who extended the research from the hard-core "brainwashing" to the milder "mind-control".

I guess my biggest problem with "Mind Control Cults" is that there doesn't seem to be any concise definition for the term. First of all, the term "cult" hardly has any meaning at all other than "not accepted by the majority". And the phrase "Mind Control" is wide open to meaning anything from "learning to think logically" to "post hypnotic suggestion".

So it seems to me that the lack of a concise definition, has turned this thread into just a bunch of opinions as to what the definition should be.

About the only thing that seems to be common to everyone's definition is "Mind Control Cult" = "bad". But everyone has (and always will have) their own opinion as to what consititues "bad".

So as far as I'm concerned, the statement

"____ is a Mind Control Cult"

has no more value than saying

"In my opinion, ______ is bad"

But then, that's just my opinion.

The term is a relatively new one, as it has only been in the last 20 or 30 years that the results of the activities of the groups deemed as "Cults" have been brought to societies attention. As with any term - you have those who will always want to quantify and qualify a term. I liken the subdevisions of "Atheism" to this. In my youth - one was either an Atheist, Agnostic, or a believer. These days there are strong Atheists, weak Atheists, Agnostic Atheists, Atheistic agnostics, Atheists on Tuesday Thursdays, and Tuesdays..... suffice it to say that somewhere - somehow, there exists a definition of "Cult Mind Control" that is understood by those who use the term. Once one has gone through the ordeal of participating in a Cult, upon departure - they are quite aware of what the term means. If not fully consciously - certainly emotionally.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying - it's mostly subjective.

Well as a final point i think if you look at mind control as for each individual, i find that each does a great job of controlling their own mind. Not much help is needed for one to be caught up in their own forms of mind control - a little news, a TV program, conversation with friends, a quick trip around the world wide web, seems like it does not take much for anyone to be influenced by media of some kind. Seem's as if it sounds reasonable and fits the bill of the individuals wants or needs - you can expect you or others to believe it, be it true or not.

Truth? what is truth?

that, which continues to remain constant to what it is, whether anyone believes it or not.