started a new post for this miles - sorry JB for interrupting your thread, i apologize -

see new post >god the law jesus and miles<

Everybody does it. Now mirror.... LOOK INTO MY EYE!

YOU ARE UNDER MY CONTROL...

1) OK, that's one definition. So by that definition, Eljay's statement about Scientology and Eckankar being "brainwashing cults" (which was the foundation behind this thread) is false. Correct?

2) I think there is validity to what several people have already said about their being "degrees of mind-control". Presenting an equality followed by a definition (Mind control = brainswashing, and brainwashing is [fill in from above definition]) only comes off as a narrow minded refusal to consider different viewpoints.

But why does everyone assume cults(whatever that is) brainwash people? Just because someone believes different from you doesnt mean they are being mind controlled.

Yes it does.


(Just kidding )

Jeannie;

Okay - so apparently you were more than just curious about this. Since my post seemed to be the springboard for this - I thought I'd expand on what I wrote.

As to the idea of "Mind Control" as simply a concept - attempting to define it is not going to lead us to what is going on in groups (Here I refered to Cults) that use calculated tactics to gain converts, and subseuently indoctrinate them.

The idea of "Cult Mind Control" is more or less a coined phrase - which grew out of the study of what is likely better termed as "Thought Reform" by Robert Jay Lifton. Lifton studied the POW's of the Korean war to try and understand why they were so radically effected in the ways and means of their thinking after their incarceration. Without going into much detail on this (He wrote an entire book on it) he came up with a list of 8 criteria for "Thought Reform". The idea that someone's "mind could be controlled" was - at the time - thought to be non-sense. It wasn't until the Patty Hearst case - and the Manson "Family" that the government started to give some credence to this idea that this phemonina was possible. During the "turbulent 60's" there were a number of "Cults" (as we refer to them now) that were popping up everywhere - gaining massive numbers of converts, who were abandoning their families, jobs, and even their identities. At this time the idea of "Deprogramming" came about.
This involved vertually kidnapping the convert - and extensive indoctrination against the group thought, and usually the carismatic leader. Groups such as The Way, Children of God, Unification Church (Moonies), Peoples Temple, etc, etc were born out of the social unrest of the late 50's and 60's as a means of breaking away from social norms and following spiritual paths. With the infux of Eastern Thought invading the country at this time - other groups - not associated with particular religious thought began to immerge. EST, Scientology, Reiki, Transcendental Meditation, Eckanker, etc - started forming - each managing to assimilate the criteria that Lifton had described.

Due to the legal ramification of the "Desprogramming movement" (as kidnapping is a felony) more nonagressive methods of indoctrination were established. "Exit Counseling" and "Intervention" became the terms we've assigned these new methods. Former Cult members - such as Steve Hassan and Margaret Singer who were pioneers of the "Exit Counselling" methods have written books that further investigated Lifton's idea's of thought reform - and associated them with the Self-Help, Christian Cult, and New Age movements that developed in the 70's & 80's. Thus - the term "Cult Mind Control". This is not quite the same as brainwashing - which is often done against the converts will - as many of those falling victim to it, do so willingly. However, there is a great amount of deception in these groups, and once having joined, the converts are slowly introduced to the more subtle "rules" and "tenets" of the groups - which are initially
seen as radical to mainstream thought and potentially rejected - but there follows well constructed explinations to potential rejection of these "rules", often by cleaverly constructed logical arguments based on Pretext rather than context. Eventually the convert begins to assimilate these pretext's into their thinking to a point of not only accepting them - but supporting them.

Thou we find the idea of "brainwashing" can be applied to just about anything from Elementery school to T.V. commercials - this is not quite the same idea as "Cult Mind Control" - which is a major component of Scientology - which brings me full circle to my original post.

Interesting. But why would you think that Eckankar or Scientology engages in cult mind control while you believe that Christianity is any different?

What makes Christianity any different? I was a member of Eckankar for the purpose of learning out of body awareness for the most part. While they eventually deteriorated to what I consider a mild cult, they certainly did not qualify as an extreme cult and were no worse than Jehovah witnesses who attempt to control every aspect of your personal life with guilt trips.

The Jehovah's witnesses seduced my sister into their studies with the promise of love and friendship and then proceeded to tell her that she was sinning because she smoked, and lived with her boyfriend without being married and many other things about her personal life. She became so depressed and lost a lot of her self esteem until she could not take it anymore and she quit.

Eckankar actually played a great part in freeing her from the heavy guilt trips of the cult of Jehovah's witnesses. We eventually left Eckankar too when they started making so many stupid rules about their organization. I just wanted to be free of any kind of control.

My point is, you can't be involved in one cult and accuse another cult of mind control just because you believe different things.


jb

I can only conclude that whether or not something constitues "Cult Mind Control" is an entirely personal and subjective opinion. I say this because if I examine the "Lifton triggers" as you called them, and compare them to my own experience with Scientology, I don't see any of them as being applicable. (Well, ok, maybe the "Loading the Language" point. But I don't see that as any different from the way science creates new words, or new definitions for old words, to describe new ideas or new ways of looking at old ideas.)

Now of course, you can choose to view my argument as proof that I myself am suffering from Cult Mind Control. But that sort of circular proof is pretty much a hallmark of the "Doctrine over person" Lifton method. And I daresay that a careful examination of your post would reveal the use of others as well.

So is the pot calling the kettle black here?

Now if you want to talk about REAL brainwashing, take a look at the actual practices of the “mental health industry”...

Where else can you find people being strapped down and shocked into convulsions so violent that they would break bones and shatter teeth were it not for a drug induced, full body paralysis?

Where else can you find people having portions of their brains being sliced up and/or completely removed.

Where else can you find mood-altering drugs having 11-digit sales figures and being advertised wholesale in the mass media.

Where else can you find fully 50% of a primary school classroom being prescribed mind-altering drugs based almost exclusively on the opinion of someone with absolutely no medical training whatsoever.

Where else can you find people being taken from their homes and incarcerated against their will, while being denied legal counsel.

Where else can you find people being diagnosed with a “chemical imbalance” and then being prescribed drugs to “correct” that imbalance, all without performing any physical or chemical tests at all?

Where else can you find parent's being charged with child abuse because they did not give their children mind-altering drugs that have a possible side effect of suicidal tendencies?

But it’s the mental health industry that leads the charge for all these accusations of “Cult Mind Control”.



Well…

“The criminal inevitable accuses others of the crimes he himself is committing.”

Well - I wouldn't call Christianity (in the true sense of the word) a "Mind Control" Cult since it is not contingent on a group dynamic with a carismatic leader. Christianity is a relationship with Jesus. Now that is not to say that there are not denominational Christian professing groups that do not practice "Mind Control" under the guise of "discipleship" as it were. There are definitely groups who claim the banner of Christianity who use definite mid control tactics. But these groups deviate from the true historical Christianity. Having experienced Jehovah Witnesses - I'm sure you can see the point. Merely becoming a christian does not involve one's mind being controlled by anything other than their perception of what the bible says about men, Jesus, and the purpose of the cross. There's no deception involved - no set of rules involved, and no amount of "good works" is going to effect one's conversion one way or another. This does not mean that one is incapable of succumbing to a group that utilizes mind control tactics - no matter how minor they may be. But that is pretty much an individual choice, and not "required" of true Christianity. This is definitely not the case in Scientology. If you don't buy into what you are being told - you are removed from the group. This is generally true of any of the Mind Control Cults. Having been a "victim" of this myself (targeted from the Boston Church of Christ) I can pretty much say there is a vast difference between groups that are mainstream Christian - and those that are considered Cults - be they destructive or just aborinth.

And from what you describe about Eckankar - I would classify them as a Cult (though I am not familiar with their tenets as I am with Scientology and EST, which I am under the impression are similar groups.)

More often than not the misnomer comes in the labelling of "Christain" in terms of how the group lines temselves up with historical biblical "truths". The mainstream media tends to label a number of "Cults" as "Christianity", and thus the distortion of what true christianity is about. Jehovah Witnesses, Mormans, Unity School of Christinity, United Church of Christ, Christian Science, The Way, Children of God, Moonies, People's Temple, Benni Hinn, Joel Olsteen, Hagin, Hagee, all considered mainline Christianity by the secular media - all utilize Cult Mind Control - some to a lesser degree than others - some are so radical they represent NOTHING that is Christian. Thus - the false idea that True Christianity (as represented by scripture only) utilizes Mind Control tactics. It is a stretch, and a mere pretext to demonstrate this from the text.

Data . . . . . being altered . . . . . inserted into computer . . . . . to control it.

Computer control.


Data . . . . . being altered . . . . . inserted into mind . . . . . to control it.

Mind control.



_______________________

Next question? Maybe what makes one form of control good vs another bad?

Ethics make for a great conversation.

Then you are saying that Jesus is NOT a charismatic leader? How about the Pope? Or your pastor?

If your pastor is too charismatic and gets into your personal life too much does that then begin to qualify as a cult? (Example: Jim Jones.) If so, at what point of a leader's "charisma" does a church draw the line between being a cult and not being a cult?

What about these new Bible camps that are popping up who take small children and reduce them to tears of repentance of their sins at the tender age of 5? Is this not a cult? I think it is a cult and also very wrong.



How can you have a "relationship" with Jesus if he died 2000 years ago and does not even exist? He either died 2000 years ago, or he is a myth, or people are "having a relationship" with an ideal, or a ghost and not a real person.

Can I "have a relationship" with Elvis Presley? I don't mean this to be insulting, but Elvis Presley is dead. I can play his records and watch his movies, but I can't have a relationship with him except in my own mind.

Back to Christianity being a "mind control" cult. I see people going around acting as if Jesus is alive and well and walking the earth. I see people inviting me to their church to "meet Jesus" as if Jesus is a member of their church. I see people who tell me they would like to "introduce me to Jesus" as if they are room mates or something.

If that's not some powerful mind control I don't know what is.

JB

Eljay said: That statement could also be applied to pretty much any business in history. In fact, it could be applied to almost any efficiently run organization of any type, anywhere, any time.

The question is, why would anyone want someone in their group if that person disagreed with the group?

And even more importantly, why would anyone want to remain a part of a group with which they disagreed? I mean, if you disagreed with what you were being told by the group, it seems that you would no longer want to be a part of that group. Seems like being removed from the group would be doing you a favor.

This is also true of a church. If I went into our local Baptist Church and spoke out against what they were teaching, they would probably ask me to leave.

And for our small tarot card reading group, we certainly would not allow a person to join in who's intent was to cause dissension and arguments about what we believed.

jb

I would classify Eckankar as a cult too, although when I was involved with it I resented Christians telling me I was "in a cult." (As compared to their cult.)

Eckankar touted their living ECK master as being the representative of God on earth,(and even the universe) or basically a Godman/Guru.

I am of the opinion that anything besides traditional Christianity is libel to be labeled a "cult."

I think the intensity with which control is exerted on members and how it is done will determine whether it is a cult.

I think the least "cultish" church in my town is the Methodist. Some of them are just "clicks" or social clubs.

jb

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Um... Jesus is God in Christianity. Doing everything for the believer except controlling the mind. I believe this is refered to as free will. Else - everyone would be a Christian. No one would have the choice to chose Jesus if he were attempting mind control.

What about the Pope? Just another guy... Unless one allows him to be more.

I don't have a pastor - but thanks for asking. I have a number of friends who are pastors - but they make no attempt at "mind control" tactics. I've never known a pastor in any of the Christian churches I've been to - to practice mind control tactics. It would be hard for them to, because I'd be out the door before they could make a second try.



When the "Pastor's" interpretation pre-empts that of scripture. And in doing so - membership of that congregation becomes jeapordized. Then you are dealing with a Cult. Though this is a rather simplistic perception (as it becomes a lot more involved when there are doctrinal disagreements with church leadership) it is merely an example of the top of my head to your hypothetical. Much more information would be needed to determine if the problem lies with the Pastor - or a rebellious parishoner.



Yes, I think I saw something on T.V. about this. I think it gives a whole new meaning to "vacation bible camp" doesn't it! If I had a child - they would definitely not be attending that camp.



This is part of the the of Historical christinity. I'm sure you are aware how the "story" goes. Jesus dies - three days later he assends to heaven (this is refered to as a resurrection). And since He is God (we are discussing Christianity are we not) and the Creator, I wouldn't think Him incapable of a relationship with His creation for those who seek a relationship with Him.



However - were Elvis God, and had he resurrected from the dead to assend to heaven - you could have a relationship with him. Alas - he was just another man though. Whereas you might see Elvis and Jesus as interchangable entities - the bible does not.



Perhaps your perception of their being christians - or your interpretation of their semantics might need to be examined here. Your expereince with this sort of individual is not a valid premise of asserting that Christianity is "mind control". Especially as I've referenced it in my earlier post. Just because someone is susceptable to believing whatever they are told or read - does not mean a "mind control" tactic is being used. Do you think that your research of UFO phenomina makes you the victim of "mind control". Is every college student a victim of "mind control". The asnwer to these questions is either yes or no - depending on your idea of mind control. If you think that christians are victims of "mind control" - than so are all of the college students, and so too - are you.

We would all like to know the secret to life and to our own minds.

Some people work to have the ability to have othes believe in them.
Or follow their ideas to the point of giving up their own thoughts and seeing their visions.

I believe that FIRST YOU have to know YOUR MIND is GREAT and love your self for the person YOU are.

Then you at least shouldn't fall into believing
someone else to the point of self hurt or death.

Their our many people who SEEK to find ANYTHING DIFFERENT to believe in other than triditional beliefs,to stand out and be SEEN as their OWN PERSON through this NEW concept of thought.

I will alwys disect EVERYTHING,lol, and weigh every angle BEFORE I would ever FOLLOW someones IDEAS or beliefs, as to THEIR TRUTHS.

But look at the over sea's, Jonesboro..
or the ones who killed them selves to be with Healey's comet.

People LED astray for one persons ideas that they implant into othe's.

JB . . I love you!

Mind control is any use of ideas to control ones thoughts . . . end of story, weather it is successfull or not does not matter.

Truth even does not matter. . . . propaganda can be true .. . and still be propaganda . . . what makes it propaganda is that is suits someones agenda, and they have made an attempt to use language and ideas to present there side in a favorable light and the other side as inhuman monsters blah blah blah . . .

Here get educated <<<<<<<<<< (propaganda statement!) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg


BRAINWASHING ALERT!!!!!!!*