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| Topic: How Many? - But WHY? | |
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Catchum would have the right answer for this very interesting question.
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The beginning of the end was the christian congregation itself. I was a Lutheran and heavily involved in my church when I was young and helped found groups within the church. For anyone unfamiliar Lutherans stress the love and acceptance of God. There was in incident where during service some children who were non christian or not required to attend church were playing in the church playground. It is my belief that a house of God belongs to the children of God which includes everyone. If we built a playground it should be open to the community. The adults and even my sister disagreed stating the children could come inside and join service or leave. They reasoned that it was too much of a temptation or torture for the children attending service. I personally thought the congregation had a responsibility to explain to it's own children in the congregation about the choice of attending service and ensure that they enjoyed it rather than forbid others to use the playground. The entire incident implied duplicity to me. If the children had to be protected from outside thought or influence and held against their will they were not willing attendies. Another incident that happened around the same time involved "Sunday school". One of the teachers went into theological discussion and was teaching finer points of belief. He posed a question. I asked that the question be repeated and clarified. I then answered with my personal belief about the answer and he told me I was wrong. I at that point realized that there was something wrong with the overall makeup of christian congregations because they form based on personal belief, but then teach the children or insist that others agree with their personal understanding. Later I tried to return, but found that my understanding of a higher power had changed and evolved enough so that if I entered the chapel during service I would start to hyper ventilate because my body knew I was opposing my personal belief. At that time I was about sixteen years old. So far as what originally made me start examining the church it was a teacher. I was attending a private Baptist school and regularly had debates with the bible class teacher because our views of God as a Lutheran and a Baptist were completely opposed. She taught fear and seperatism and I had been brought up taught the love and acceptance of God. It made me start to examine closely the behaviors of congregations. It was another teacher at the same school that once posed a question to use that I heard a rumor she was later fired for. The question was do you believe what you believe because it is in your heart, or because you were taught to believe it? The discussion lasted for some time and when it started I thought I was on firm ground having a different view from the Baptists I was surrounded by. By the end of the discussion she had made her point to me personally. Over the years this question served me well driving me to seek the truth of understanding my own existence and my own personal beliefs. My understanding has evolved and the more it lead me towards acceptance of individual belief, the more it lead me away from accepting those that attempt to force their beliefs on othes regardless of what relgiion they consider themselves to follow. I'm all for relgion, spirituality, and each person seeking spiritual progression. I'm against conformity of the soul, spiritual or cultural slavery, and the use of pressure or threats to attempt to change another's views. I am also set dead against those that justify hatred and seperatism as religeous duty. Interesting. Thank you for your response. I was raised in the Lutheran church myself. However, that doesn't tell you much cause the Lutheran church can't even agree with itself. They have split off into several synods as well. I was very devote. Convinced that I was going to study Theology after I graduated high school. I left the Christianity after visiting a differant church and being given a "hellfire and brimestone" sermon. (hince the sensitivity) I wondered around lost for several years and eventually found my way back. But did not return to the Lutheran faith. Matter of fact, I have yet to attend any church that I can attend and agree with everything that is preached from the pulpit. Yet, I continue to believe because I understand that the man on the pulpit preaching to me is just a man. He is not perfect, his interpretation is not perfect. It is amazing to me how many people leave Christianity, myself included, due to the acts of man. We are all human. None of us are perfect. I don't understand (but am beginning to) why people blame God for man's imperfections. |
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I am looking for answers to my questions. That is the only thing I am interested in discussing on this thread. Anything else is just aggravating me. This is a forum, if I see something stated about Christianity that I believe is not true, I will reply to it. I'm sorry if that aggrevates you, feel free to ignore my posts. But if I allow a false statement about Christianity to stand, it simply leads to other objections which people can raise about Christianity. spider, i agree with you if i see something someone is taking out of context or mis-using to make a point that's not on target i do the same - it's tough being a referee hahaha - but please know this also - i don't believe cherub's intention's nor mine on these matter's is to bring down christianity only to know of one another in a closer way as to belief's and why ok? if you feel somethings being stated by me or cherub is out of context you could be polite and wait til the end of the thread and post your comment's and such then - but for now let's "try" to keep the subject matter at hand on track - otherwise we will just end up with another bunch of gobbledy gook again - thnx |
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I am looking for answers to my questions. That is the only thing I am interested in discussing on this thread. Anything else is just aggravating me. This is a forum, if I see something stated about Christianity that I believe is not true, I will reply to it. I'm sorry if that aggrevates you, feel free to ignore my posts. But if I allow a false statement about Christianity to stand, it simply leads to other objections which people can raise about Christianity. Fair enough. |
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OK all. I'm leaving work now and heading home. I will be back on after dinner. Have fun. I will catch up with ya later.
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Its a smoke screen! 
That's what Tribo does. He creates a smoke screen and then hides his true fears, intentions, and lack of conviction behind it. His real objectives and motivations are shortly obvious to anyone who reads two or three of his Christian hating threads. I thought you left for the joke section. What happened? Did you find out you aren't funny? 
Wow! I really like you 
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It is amazing to me how many people leave Christianity, myself included, due to the acts of man. We are all human. None of us are perfect. I don't understand (but am beginning to) why people blame God for man's imperfections. I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. I believe once Jesus had a speech about taxes, coins ect where he said give to God what belongs to God, and Give to man what belongs to man. The belief that God had anything to do with Christianity in it's modern or even ancient form as understood by modern man per my opinion has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the failings of man. In some ways one can view Christianity itself as a test of spiritual fortitude tempting people to sin in the name of God which is the most appealing sin in existence for a Christian since it allows one to sin and them justify it blaming responsibility on their god. My struggle to get my own family to accept my spiritual differences was not easy, and took years of talking with them time and time again feeling unloved and unaccepted but as good Christians they eventually came to understand that rather than rejecting spirituality I was rejecting a system that was wrong for me. When I recently argued with my mother about her own belief she said something to the effect that it works for her and she is content, and many of the concepts I toy with in my mind are beyond her understanding leaving her content to let me puzzle these out while accepting her more straight forward simple views. This in itself was simply her response though she then later started reading a thing or two about the nature of Christianity and has even asked for my help in understanding a book she read but couldn't quite understand. My personal belief is that Christianity as a following of Christ is a failure. I acknowledge that the Christian system seems to work for some people, but it is by far relatively few when you consider how many it corrupts per my opinion. I believe this because I personally believe most of the teachins of Christ were simple to understand and propgated love, respect, and spirituality. I also believe when someone steps away from Chrisitanity it has nothing to do with Christ and that they are leaving a system of spiritual dogma (or even slavery) in order to seek their own truth. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) |
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Edited by
tiffanyraquel
on
Tue 06/10/08 03:08 PM
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?
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Blackbird, want a religious experience?
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It is amazing to me how many people leave Christianity, myself included, due to the acts of man. We are all human. None of us are perfect. I don't understand (but am beginning to) why people blame God for man's imperfections. I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. I believe once Jesus had a speech about taxes, coins ect where he said give to God what belongs to God, and Give to man what belongs to man. The belief that God had anything to do with Christianity in it's modern or even ancient form as understood by modern man per my opinion has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the failings of man. In some ways one can view Christianity itself as a test of spiritual fortitude tempting people to sin in the name of God which is the most appealing sin in existence for a Christian since it allows one to sin and them justify it blaming responsibility on their god. My struggle to get my own family to accept my spiritual differences was not easy, and took years of talking with them time and time again feeling unloved and unaccepted but as good Christians they eventually came to understand that rather than rejecting spirituality I was rejecting a system that was wrong for me. When I recently argued with my mother about her own belief she said something to the effect that it works for her and she is content, and many of the concepts I toy with in my mind are beyond her understanding leaving her content to let me puzzle these out while accepting her more straight forward simple views. This in itself was simply her response though she then later started reading a thing or two about the nature of Christianity and has even asked for my help in understanding a book she read but couldn't quite understand. My personal belief is that Christianity as a following of Christ is a failure. I acknowledge that the Christian system seems to work for some people, but it is by far relatively few when you consider how many it corrupts per my opinion. I believe this because I personally believe most of the teachins of Christ were simple to understand and propgated love, respect, and spirituality. I also believe when someone steps away from Chrisitanity it has nothing to do with Christ and that they are leaving a system of spiritual dogma (or even slavery) in order to seek their own truth. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) well put BB - i challenge you to this my friend - start seeking answers from within not from without yourself - for there you will find out who you truly are and from there the answers to all you seek will be most forth coming - i also must say that it was verses from the bible that lead me to the path i now am on - though i doubt any take the meaning as i have and spider no need to comment im not using it out of context - i'm using it only to say how i got to where i am - the gospel of JOHN - chpt.2 vs 23 thru 25 - " 23) Now when he was in jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miricles which he did. 24) But jesus did not commit himself unto them because he - ( KNEW ALL MEN ) 25) And needed not that any shoud testify of man - ( FOR HE KNEW WHAT WAS IN MAN ) that last part affected me quite dramatically - and started me on my search to know as a man - MYSELF firstly that i might know ALL MEN lastly. |
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Catchum would have the right answer for this very interesting question. 
It's bad enough you come into religion threads & disrespect them. You know nothing about me. Keep me out of your troll spewy. Hiya Tribo! 
Good day all! Love & light! 
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Catchum would have the right answer for this very interesting question.
It's bad enough you come into religion threads & disrespect them. You know nothing about me. Keep me out of your troll spewy. Hiya Tribo!
Good day all! Love & light!
good afternoon precious lady, you are now on my friend's list - i hope you enjoy the new post by cherub girl - we are trying hard to keep it on track so it does not end up like the other did - will see i guess - please feel free to comment or ask anything -
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Thank you Tribo,
Hi Cherub Girl
This area is not for me. Thank you!
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Thank you Tribo,
Hi Cherub Girl
This area is not for me. Thank you!
why not catch? not enough excitement?
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Edited by
Quikstepper
on
Tue 06/10/08 04:00 PM
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I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) WOW! This sounds like something the fallen human would say. It's apparent that you practiced "religion" & not did what was necessary to aquire your personal faith & relationship with God. Many have the same problem. You seem to blame your family when really you were forcing your own beliefs on THEM. How can you blame them for what you were doing? Maybe it's not them who isn't being realistic in their belief? I also think these terms like dogma are really being abused by unbelievers to the point of sounding like a cliche. I'm not sure where you are getting your ideas about Christians and temptation but I NEVER got that in ANY time of my life???? ...AND BTW, the Hebrew God is the same God as the Christian God in the person of Jesus. Belief in Christ is not the failure but man's own failure to submit to God that is the problem. I'm not a follower & do have discriminating sense... but I do recognize God in people & through them I am where I am today. That's what God does...He works THROUGH people. I'll take His manual which is God inspired over paganism anyday. |
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Blackbird, want a religious experience? I've had more of them than I can count. That is exactly made me what I am, and made me believe what I do. |
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I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) WOW! This sounds like something the fallen human would say. It's apparent that you practiced "religion" & not did what was necessary to aquire your personal faith & relationship with God. Many have the same problem. You seem to blame your family when really you were forcing your own beliefs on THEM. How can you blame them for what you were doing? Maybe it's not them who isn't being realistic in their belief? I also think these terms like dogma are really being abused by unbelievers to the point of sounding like a cliche. I'm not sure where you are getting your ideas about Christians and temptation but I NEVER got that in ANY time of my life???? ...AND BTW, the Hebrew God is the same God as the Christian God in the person of Jesus. Belief in Christ is not the failure but man's own failure to submit to God that is the problem. I'm not a follower & do have discriminating sense... but I do recognize God in people & through them I am where I am today. That's what God does...He works THROUGH people. I'll take His manual which is God inspired over paganism anyday. that is both your right and your choice quick, but can we keep this thread on subject - its about cherub wanting answers from those who were christians that have left christianity and now believe differently - all black bird was doing was stating his case - for "cherub, as i asked spider and now you - i know you have evry right to say what you believe and feel how you feel but please if you must try to be patient and let the thread run it's coarse before posting your thoughts if you can manage your patient's ok? i really would like to see this post which is a continuation of my post in one sense find it's conclusion with little argueing as possible - thnx in advance
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I blame man for man's imperfections. I blame a system of brainwashing and dogma for the corruption of people's spiritual followings. The Hebrew God had nothing to do with christianity, it's formation, or it's corruption of the spirituality or religion of people. Those that can not find their own way are forced to follow others. Those that can find their own path are more likely to accept with totality the teachings of others. Divorcing oneself from a system or establishment is seperate from divorcing oneself from spirituality or religion in general. Some call it being lost but I think of it as finding oneself, and realizing that an individual's personal path to enlightenment is more meaningful than submission to a system created by other humans. Any person within this system that truly follows their personal heart and is able to maintain spiritual integrity within this system is fine by me. It is those that let the system warp their spirits or corrupt their religion that I take issue with even if I realize that the source of damage is the system rather than their personal choice. I view them as victims of the system and rather than attack them as spiritual beings simply wish for them to allow themselves enough spiritual freedom and self respect to find themselves and their own true belief. I once was debating with a Christian who questioned my tendency to give Christians a lot of challenges to face regarding their faith. My answer was that anything I say whether I say it badly or perfectly is simply an attempt to free their mind and their soul. If my statements shake their faith it is meant to be shaken, and when someone is brainwashed by a system of dogma for a lifetime my statements should mean little to a true believer and would only change the views of a false believer without conviction who never took the time to examine their own beliefs realistically. (This is paraphrased I fail to remember the exact words used in the discussion on either side I only remember the concept.) WOW! This sounds like something the fallen human would say. It's apparent that you practiced "religion" & not did what was necessary to aquire your personal faith & relationship with God. Many have the same problem. You seem to blame your family when really you were forcing your own beliefs on THEM. How can you blame them for what you were doing? Maybe it's not them who isn't being realistic in their belief? I also think these terms like dogma are really being abused by unbelievers to the point of sounding like a cliche. I'm not sure where you are getting your ideas about Christians and temptation but I NEVER got that in ANY time of my life???? ...AND BTW, the Hebrew God is the same God as the Christian God in the person of Jesus. Belief in Christ is not the failure but man's own failure to submit to God that is the problem. I'm not a follower & do have discriminating sense... but I do recognize God in people & through them I am where I am today. That's what God does...He works THROUGH people. I'll take His manual which is God inspired over paganism anyday. Actually I'm growing tired of responding to you because my only question is are you ever going to bother reading what I am saying rather than just picking out parts of what I say to try to start an argument? I believe you have offered more evidence in your responses to my stance against organized religion than I ever could with your replies. |
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Hmmmm? - was an earlier ststement in another post i said even more accurate than i thought??
was i correct that different thought's on religious matters when on a forum cannot end but in fighting breaking out - all that is possible? Why? - are some so insecure wth thier belief's that they have to - no matter what - get their shots in when a simple topic that is not looking for anything but to get to know each other's belief's in a more close manner cannot come about? Are we just like the jews and muslim's? or the catholic's and protestent's of ireland and england? does everything have to end in a holy war or jihhad?? what is gained from this - please allow the post to stay in track - hold your judgements for the end, thnx |
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dark owl, what is life, yzrabbit,anoasis,redykeulous,zigfeild girl, curios,ric Jl, loriding, where are you???
other's also????????? come join in cherub want's to hear from you
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