Take a look abra at the way you word things....Here lets take the last one and break it down....as to why Debbie get's so annoyed.....

I have never once said you have to believe or you will go to hell........or said anything negative about you being a panthiest.......here lets take it piece by piece.

Abra said:

It’s actually this kind of rhetoric that causes Christians to become bigots and judgmental of non-believers.

This is basically suggesting that non-believers are unrighteous. This is what as known a demagoguery.

ANSWER: Now I am rhetoric and a bigot and judgmental of non-believers.........Which is such a lie.......

Abra said:

It’s telling people whatever it takes to keep them faithful. Make them believe that to even listen to anyone who doesn’t agree with the doctrine will get you in trouble with the lord, and those who are faithful will be rewarded.

Fear, and lust for reward , is precisely what makes cults so powerful.

ANSWER:

No I am part of a cult.....And see what you fail to understand is that for Christians their are consequences for not listening to God....we didn't make this up....and we sure as heck don't switch it up so that we can live as we choose....

Abra said:

These kinds of things serve no purpose whatsoever with respect to actually clarifying any stories. All this is, is ‘fill’. It’s just saying that if you believe in the doctrine you’ll be rewarded, if you don’t you’ll be punished. But it doesn’t offer any clues as to why the doctrine should be believed.

ANSWER: THE DOCTRINE IS BELIEVED BECAUSE AS CHRISTIANS WE BELIVED THAT THE WORD (BIBLE) IS THE INATE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD.........AND FOR YOU TO SAY STORIES OR MYTHS IS JUST IN MY EYES WRONG....BECAUSE AGAIN PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH ABRA.

If you are entitled to your beliefs then so are we. And where do you get your information from as far as what panthiest believe......also of men........right.......so what the hay.....The big difference is that our authors of our book were directly spoken to by God as to what they wrote.

Abra said:

This is just wasted space in a book that already has no answers. I'm sure that most mythologies contain very similar demagoguery. This doesn't address any issue. It just promotes fear, lust, and superstition.

ANSWER: This is the best part you claim here that the bible promotes fear, lust and superstition....ARE YOU NEW........I have no fear for the Lord my God is with me. Lust that one is just from left field......superstition doesn't even apply.......

Did you write the Psalms? If not, then my statement wasn’t referring to you as a believer. I was referencing the Psalms poems you posted, not you personally.



Unless you know with absolute certainty that the Bible is indeed the word of the creator of this universe then you may very well be part of a very large cult and not even realize it.

I actually didn’t even suggest that the Bible is a cult. I merely illustrated that it contains the kinds of demagoguery that is typical of cults.

(I must also add here that demagoguery does not necessarily imply malice, a believer in a cult can innocently spread demagoguery concerning that cult without even realizing that they are telling untruths.)

In other words, if you support something that you do not know to be absolute truth, AND you do this in a way that is designed to coerce them into believing it, then you are spreading demagoguery whether you’re doing it with malice or totally innocent ignorance.



I didn’t even say anything about anyone who might believe in it. I merely stated that these poems serve no purpose to further the information in the bible. My purpose there was to suggest that a genuine supreme being would not have a reason to inspire the writings of those poems. They sound more like they were written by a person who merely has faith (like you) and is trying to convince people that their faith it the only way to go.

I wasn’t implying anything about anyone who might believe or disbelieve the poems. I was just pointing out that they just don’t offer any new information, they seem redundant. They seem to be just saying, either believe what I believe, or be sorry you ever lived. Just like you seem to be trying to tell me all the time.

To me, this just doesn’t sound like something an all-loving God would write in a book in the first place.

I keep addressing the “God concept” directly, and you keep trying to make it like I’m attacking the “believers of the doctrine”. I’m not even thinking that way. I’m viewing the book entirely as a book that was supposedly written by the creator of this universe, and asking myself, “Does this book make sense?” I’m not concerned about who may or may not believe it in it. That would be working backwards. Their belief in something doesn’t have anything at all to do with whether or not it has merit.



I wasn’t referring to the entire bible when I said that “it just promotes fear, lust, and superstition”. I was referring directly to things like these Psalms poems that are promoting fear (if you don’t believe this something terrible will happen to you) , lust (if you do believe this you will receive God’s love, protection and other possible rewards), and superstition (the very idea that a judgmental God is going to be peeved if you don’t believe any of this in the first place)

Nothing in anything I wrote here was directed at any “believers”. I was merely commenting on the merits of the Bible itself.

Believers, just can’t seem to even allow for the bible to be questioned. As soon as someone starts questioning they Bible they come running like as if a personal attack is being made on them.

But why? Shouldn’t your God be able to stand up under scrutiny? If the book is true, and really is the word of God than shouldn’t it ultimately come though the wash clean and in perfect condition?

You seem to be afraid that if I put the Bible through the washing machine of scrutiny it will be torn to shreds and fall to all to pieces being unable to stand up to the investigation.

I don’t understand the fear. If the bible is sound and was written by “MY CREATOR” I should be able to question it to my heart’s content. If God is real, then it should hold up and I’ll see that “MY CREATOR” is real (assuming that my creator actually wrote this book which I clearly don’t believe).

Believer’s in the Bible seem to think they OWN God. They don’t. I have every bit as much right to question stories that are being claimed about “MY CREATOR”. If this story is a LIE, and claims to be about MY CREATOR, then I’d like to see it unveiled for the myth that it is.

I’m not trying to attack Debbie.

Good Point Abra,

To add to that for Feralcatlady,

When I stated my beliefs to a local pastor he always wanted to find a label to hang on me.

In some forums, some Christian friends will always ask me what my source is for the statements I make. (I had a good friend that would do this all the time, not on this club on another club.)

She would then proceed to located any source I gave her and pick it apart and attack the messenger. Does she have that right? Of course she does.

In fact, if I wanted to investigate some website, or some persons, I would list them as a source and she would investigate them, saving me a lot of time doing it myself.

She was a great investigator, and she was my number one authority on the Bible as she read all different Bibles in many different languages. Any time I had a question about the Bible she was the one I would ask.

My point here is this. Anyone in a discussion, offering their source information, whatever it is, has to realize that their source information WILL BE QUESTIONED and scrutinized and investigated.

This is NOT an attack on God.

This is not an attack on Christians.

This is not a personal attack on anyone.

If so, then every time she investigated my source, I would take it as a personal attack on me and or on my conclusions.

It is hard to have an open mind. She exposed a few of my sources as being less than reliable or of having an agenda.

Good for her. I did not have to do it. She saved me a lot of time.

Now, if you use the Bible as your source of information that is fine, but expect that it will be questioned and challenged.

If you claim that it is infallible and written by God and should not be questioned, that would be the same as me telling you that my source was written by God or by men inspired by God and should not be questioned.

Would you believe that? I doubt it. I hope you understand what I am saying here.

(You should because it was inspired by God. ~~Therefore, it must be God's word.)

You get my point.

JB

When you attack the Bible.....for me it's very personal.

If you use the Bible as your source, (in a debate or discussion) and if, like other Christians, you question and attack my sources, you should expect that I will attack yours and question it ~~very seriously.

You should not expect otherwise.

If you make or take it personal, ~~that is a mistake.

(You are not the Bible. It is not an attack on you.)

I cannot accept your source if you use it in stating your position in a debate simply because it has too many inconsistencies and interpretations.

Therefore that is why I cannot debate with Christians about what they choose to believe. If they want to believe it, that is their choice.

So I intend to avoid that kind of debate, but they should know that I don't accept their proof or their source.

JB

Ok like you don't know I didn't write the psalms....but if I believe the psalms then I am a rehtoric, bigot and judgmental of no believers........And if I posted the poem I obviously believe it duh.....and personal yea hello

Oh abra abra my poor misguided sweet abra.....And if I knew with absolute certainty that the Bible is the inspired word of the creator of the universe hardly makes me part of any cult......Part of God's plan...yes....cult never.

I know it to be absolute truth and I coerce no one....believe as you may........believe what gets you through the day.......but don't tell me that I don't know......because you don't know that I don't know....right......

And honestly what part of my belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God don't you get.....you can say whatever you want abra but it will never change what I know to be the truth....and you can't do jack diddly about that....

And this is how good my God is. My friend next door Casey Saturday lost his home in a fire. Now my daughter Sammantha and her friend Lindsey went with Casey to the Petsmart....2 minutes after they left there were two big explosions as the house they were in blew up......My God is always watching out for me and mine....and everyday this is shown to me in so many ways.....They could of all been killed...but my faith in my Lord Jesus Christ is so strong that I know he will always watch out for me and mine...And that my sweet abra is all the proof that this lil bible toting lady will ever need. And yes I went to my knees and wept and thanked the Lord for all he does in my life.


I keep telling you that when you call my Bible a book of stories written by man....that it is an attack to me personally and any other Christian....why don't you see that. And for you supposedly written and for me WAS written by the creator of the universe. If the book doesn't make sense then you need to delve into more.....because then you might actually see the merit that is within. And again abra when you claim my Bible has no answers....that is an insult to me. And you know if you would take scripture and show me what makes no sense or why it's to you making no sense....then that I could do......but to talk the way you do.....just shows me that you just really don't understand.....and again that's ok......I don't care if you believe it or don't believe it.....but I really also don't think you understand it enough to state that it can't be true.

God owns me.....and that is not in a bad way....it just is...My life and everything I do is for Him....To give him honor, glory and to live my life as he wants.... NO FEAR

And you know abra I heart you major and I know your not attacking.....same for me.

It's ok not to accept the Bible as proof of my source....that is good.....but if you say my Bible are stories and myths......that to me is an insult.....I like the way you said that JB.....that I can totally accept.

Whatever I say or think about the Bible should not be of any concern to you and certainly is never meant to insult you or anyone.

I can understand why you might be insulted if I spoke to you directly and told you that I believe that what you believe is probably a myth.

I will try not to do that. The only time I am inclined to challenge the Bible is when people try to use it as proof of God or proof of some assertion that does not ring true.

JB

You are constantly trying to sell the biblical picture to others.

When you have a product for sale, you can blame other people for questioning it.

They question it. You call it "attacking".

What do you expect people to do? Just blindly accept it without any questions like you did?

Many other people actually prefer to understand their world in reasonable ways, including their spirituality.

This is the problem with Christianity is that it’s Hell Bent on converting others to it’s beliefs, the core belief being that the biblical picture of God is correct.

Until they stop trying to SELL IT to the entire world, other will being giving their reasons why they don’t want to BUT IT.

You can’t be tying to sell something and then complain about it when others voice their reasons why they aren’t buying it.

This is why it makes absolutely no sense for Christians to hide behind the idea that people who voice objections to the biblical picture are being insulting and attacking the religion

That’s not what’s happening. They are simply reacting to the fact that Christians are constantly trying to SELL the picture to them via constant proselytizing.

It’s utterly absurd to hide behind the idea that people are ‘attacking’ the religion.

In truth they are actually ‘defending’ against its obsession to take over the world!

It’s like a cancer of the mind.

It’ s no wonder people like myself would love to save the world from this cancer of the mind.

I have given logical reason after logical reason why it can't possibly be true. And I have even offered a picture of God that is flawless and not logically inconsistent.

Yet everyone seems to ignore every point I make and just contintues beating their dead horse.

It's quite sad really.

Abra you wrote and I quote....



<<<<<<<<....given logical reason after logical reason why it can't possibly be true. And I have even offered a picture of God that is flawless and not logically inconsistent.

Yet everyone seems to ignore every point I make and just contintues beating their dead horse........>>>>>>>>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Abra....God CANNOT be Understood thru LOGIC.
NEVER !!!!
Cause God is SPIRIT.

God cannot be Communicated with..... thru LOGIC.
God can't Fellowship with us or we with God, thru LOGIC.
We Can't Stand in God's Presence thru Our Logic.

Only with our spirit MADE ALIVE, can we do this.
Only thru SPIRIT.
Cauase God is SPIRIT.

Therefore, ONLY thru a man's born again spirit , can a man Communicate and KNOW and Fellowship with God.

And THAT is why no one will be able to come up with answers about God here, by using mere LOGIC......... cause all this will accomplish, is a continual going around and around and around and around in circles.
Nothing more.

AND quess what.. you will contine to go around in circles,as far as your attempt at understanding and reaching God is concerned ....UNTIL you are truly born again.

And in order to become TRULY born again, it requires FAITH to BELIEVE....and Faith is, Meaning it in your HEART... and NOT just in your head (lip service only).

God says, it you CONFESS the Lord Jesus with your Mouth, AND MEAN IT in your HEART, you SHALL BE SAVED.
Saved....That's what born again means.

But if one does not mean it when he says those words?
It is all meaningless.
And there wil be no change. Cause his spririt is still dead.

A true born again christian's life , SHOWS EVIDENCE of being truly born again.
A born again christian bears fruits.
There is Evidence of change.

Also, a true born again christian, CAN'T walk in his old ways anymore.
He just can't.
Oh ,he may sometimes slip back into his old ways , but he can't STAY there FOR LONG!!
Why?
Cause he is a new creasture in Christ now.
His spirit is ALIVE now.
Born again.

A born again christian is not of this world....he is IN the world but not OF this world .

AND... a born again christian KNOWS Jesus is Lord.
He doesn't question that...ever....He KNOWS.
Cause his spirit has NOW been made ALIVE.

A born again christian's spirit is NOT DEAD anymore.
His spiritual eyes and ears have been OPENED NOW...to TRUTH. He UNDESTANDS Now..cause his spirit has come
ALIVE now.

Also......AFTER becoming born again...and AFTER a man's spirit has become ALIVE , can a man HAVE RERLATIONSIP WITH GOD NOW.

Trust me...there is nothing MORE REAL, than man having his spirit OPENED and made ALIVE..so man can Now FINALLY and TRULY UNDERSTAND the things of God and Spirit.

Also, the Holy Spirit now dwelling in a born again christian, will lead and guide him into all truth.

But this is something man will NEVER accomplish ..in His attempt to Know God....by using just his Logic or Intellect.

Cause again...God is Spirit.

When man tries to explain God with Logic only, man will fail ..everytime.

But that is what man does.... he tries to EXPLAIN Life and God, with his own limted Intellectual understanding.

And that is ok for awhile...cause actually, God PUT that hunger in man to want to know God (hence all the different religions of the world).
Man's hunger to know God, is inborn in him ,and that is why man always is striving to know God.

We all have done that, before we were born again .

We all have, at one time, tried logic and reason and intellect to reach God....and we all also thought at one time, that this having to become born again(as the only way to God) ,was silliness .

But there comes a time, when the spirit of man will hear and hear and hear and hear and hear and hear, and suddeny FAITH will come.

Faith comes by hearing anf hearing by the Word of God.

But How can a man come to believe, except he hear?

But one day, after Hearing and hearing, Faith WILL come ... to confess Jesus and mean it.

And God does make HIMSELF KNOWN.. to Every man.
Even if God has to send ministering angels into the back side of a desert....Or to a man's bedside during his last final breath...God WILL Make himself known to man, to give him a chance to receive Him .

But why Wait that long to accept Him?

Why not ask God to make Himself REAL to you now?
Just ask..He will not turn a deaf ear, IF you are SINCERE.

But until then, man will not believe.
And really, that is all understandable.

But
God is Patient.


But if any among you.... are ready to Recieve this Wonderful Saviour Jesus into your heart?

You can do it right now.
Yes...right this minute.
Right where you are.

And no...You don't have to go get cleaned up first.
No.
All you have to do is pray this simple prayer and mean it.

Just say ,

"Jesus forgive me for my sins .
I believe you died on the cross for my sins.
And I believe you rose again and live on high......and I ask you to now come and live in my heart now...as my Lord and Saviour".

See?
No fancy words.
No fancy speech. Mo having to word it a certain way.
No.
Just ask Jesus into your heart and Mean it. And God thru His Holy Spirit, WILL Come In.

Caue God sees and knows your heart.

If you mean it, Jesus will surely come in, to live in you and be with you.
Always.
And you too, will then be Born Again.

Morningsong that was a very long winded post so I will address a few of your statements.

I disagree with your assertion that God cannot be understood through logic.

I will also add that as God is "spirit" so are we "spirit" so you cannot base your statement on that reasoning.

We are also spirit.




I disagree with this assertion also.

You assume that God and man are separated and we cannot stand in God's presence through our logic.

According to the pantheist view, we are always in God's presence especially when we think and operate and practice being a channel for God's manifestation in us.

We can listen and speak to and for God when we become a channel for that.




As God is spirit so are we spirit.

JB

In my belief, I am a spiritual being having a human experience. I am in this world but not of this world.

(This concept is not reserved just for Christians. Neither do Christians own God.)

JB

Man has more than simple logic and intellect at his disposal. He uses all that is at his disposal beginning with logic and intellect, but man is also spirit made flesh.

As God is spirit, so is man.

JB

God is as real to me as I am real to myself.
My faith is as strong as any Christian's.

Blessings to you....

When you attack the Bible.....for me it's very personal.


If you use the Bible as your source, (in a debate or discussion) and if, like other Christians, you question and attack my sources, you should expect that I will attack yours and question it ~~very seriously.

You should not expect otherwise.

ANSWER: I have never attacked your source so the same respect should be shown....and like I said if you were to question anything in the bible and not call it a book of myths or fables I would be ok with that....And if you had a source I would ask you and maybe debate it...But not call it a book of lies, fables or otherwise.


If you make or take it personal, ~~that is a mistake.

(You are not the Bible. It is not an attack on you.)

ANSWER:

Thank you for telling me how I should feel!!!!!

I cannot accept your source if you use it in stating your position in a debate simply because it has too many inconsistencies and interpretations.

ANSWER: And thank you again for pointing out what your belief is as far as inconsistencies and interpretations.....even though that is way far from what I know.


Therefore that is why I cannot debate with Christians about what they choose to believe. If they want to believe it, that is their choice.

ANSWER: Then say it like the above and I am good with it.

So I intend to avoid that kind of debate, but they should know that I don't accept their proof or their source.

JB

ANSWER: No need to accept anything....no one asked ya too.

I simply don’t agree with this.

The fundamental belief is that God is reasonable not unreasonable.

An unreasonable God would be untrustworthy God.

For me this is paramount.

Moreover, I have a spiritual picture of the true nature of reality that is reasonable.

Why should I give that up for an unreasonable picture of a God?

Pantheism is a picture of a very reasonable God.

The idea of a God who requires blood sacrifices before he can forgive someone of their sins is totally unreasonable to me.

The idea that a God who created and lives in a supposedly perfect heaven had to kick out angry angels who didn’t believe agree that heaven was so perfect, is unreasonable to me.

The idea that a God who can intervene would wait until the entire world is corrupt before intervening only to down out the vast majority of his creation is unreasonable to me.

The idea that God created a universe by premeditated design where he would need to be nailed to a pole as part of the plot is unreasonable to me.

The idea that a judgmental God wants people to obey his laws but he refuses to reveal himself so that people can know which doctrines might be true and which ones might not be true is unreasonable to me.

Why would God play guessing game with my soul?

I don’t believe that God is unreasonable.

God must stand up to the logic of reason. Otherwise God would be unreasonable.

The pantheistic picture of God is totally reasonable. Not to mention beautiful with no fallen angels who are at war with God. There is nothing unreasonable in the pantheistic picture of God. Therefore it must be correct. Unless God is indeed unreasonable.

I even forgot to mention that the idea that God is at war with a demon who is trying to conquer his kingdom is unreasonable to me.

God must be reasonable. Otherwise God would be unreasonable.

I’ll never believe in an unreasonable God.

You can keep that God all to yourself.



But Pantheists actually have accomplished this.

So I feel that your statement here is simply incorrect.

Personally, no, you have not. The "you" I am referring to is a plural which represents Christians with strongly held beliefs such as yourself.

I have gotten into very deep and extensive conversations with people with your very same or similar beliefs (perhaps even more fundamental) who did extensive investigations into any source I gave them.

You and I personally have never gotten into a reasonable debate of this kind as you prefer not to waste your time with them.

So my statements are general and not about you.

However if you feel better by being "insulted" then by all means, go right ahead and feel that way.

I would not presume to tell you how to feel.

I am just saying that it is a mistake to accuse me or anyone of insulting you "on purpose" just because we state our opinion that the Bible is a myth, especially if you insist that it is the gospel truth, and the word of God and expect people to believe and respect that idea without question.

JB

Jeannie.....yes....man is also spirit as God is Spirit.......

but until the spirit of man is Born Again, the spirit of man is DEAD to the things of God....and therefore man will not be able to understand the Truth of God..or be able to Fellowship or truly Communicate with God .

Man will NEVER be able to Know or Understand God, UNTIL man's spirit comes ALIVE ....which happens ONLY when man's spirit is Born again.

I disagree that spirit can ever be "dead," whether you choose to call it the "spirit of man" or the "spirit of God."

As a pantheist, I maintain that the "spirit of God" is the same as the "spirit of man" as it is the eternal life spring, which like a fountain comes forth from the prime creator giving life to all things, like your blood comes forth to give life to all your cells.

Consciousness (awareness) of spirit connected to God ~from man ~may not be fully or consciously realized by some people, but if it were not connected, they would not be alive at all.

That connection is what sustains life.

Being "born again" (as Christians call it) refers to the self (and God realization) that a human will naturally evolve and aspire to reach at some point during the many rounds of life and death incarnations that they experience inn third density material worlds, and even other higher density worlds.

So to "come alive" in spirit is the ultimate and natural course of all humankind, and human consciousness will ascend to higher realities, and it does not require dogma, doctrine, myth or ancient scripture to do so.

It requires no religion. It only requires that human consciousness accept the call to higher states of Love, compassion, gratitude and creativity which raises them up to higher frequencies of being.

JB

Jeannie.

That is close.

Jesus said also, "let the dead bury their dead, but come and follow me."

He is clear there that some have dead spirits within and have closed themselves off from any spiritual awareness of their 'god'at all. It was specific to the Jews and not concerning the addressing of others not led by the LORD (JHWH) at that time. That is not a snipe at Jews, by any means. I haven't always been that clear in the specifics of the context of the statement before, when I have refered to it elsewhere, but it is relevant. There is a specific intent being made aware of by that remark of Jesus'.

Not implying that you, or anyone else has become spiritually dead, but that it is a condition that some find for themselves, according to Jesus'words, as recorded.

For Christians, those are words which are understandably poignant, being blessed to have the Holy Spirit show us the difference between our spirit and our soul through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit being fused to our own spirit for the good of our souls. It is by the Holy Spirit through which we grow and learn and become wise in the things of God, as given us in Christ.

peace