Very true. I don't believe that anyone really knows the truth of what has happened or of what will happen. But I think one day we will know and we will see all of it. I am looking forward to it. We can all discuss it more at that time.



JB

Proverbs 18:10

The name of the Lord
Is such a strong tower
No evil can conquer it
Nor rob it of its power
And all of the righteous
Find refuge in its strength
And safety from the enemy
From the fiery darts he sends
For His name is so mighty
No other is the same
A strong and mighty fortress
Forever shall remain.





Psalm 1:1-3

Blessed are you that do not walk
In the counsel of the unwise
Nor stand in the path of the unrighteous ones
Nor listen to their advice
But your delight and holy desire
Are the teachings of the Lord
Meditating by day and by night
Giving ear to God's holy law
Like a firmly planted tree
That is watered by the streams
You shall bear fruit in its season
And prosper in everything

I agree with you and support what you are saying.
I have, all along.

This is what is not visible to the filtered logic that sees my point as other than it is.

Attack on Christianity occurs only when it is distorted to promaote something else.

It is simple.

Stand alone or fall on the exclusivity of its own efficacy without props from Christianity.


It is simple.

Do not be afraid to do so.

there is no thrreat from Chroistianity to do so.

And if Christians villify that, I will jump them even harder, Jeannie.

Not for your sake, but for Jesus' sake.

Not even my own sake.

I am also a proponent for mutual respect and dignity.

I am also am exposer of the ills of avarice and greed which pose themselves as advantage and privelege.

I oppose elitism which excludes young children from learning and growing and finding peace. With simple plain speech does one share with all equally.

I also am opposed to licentiousness which demands consensus and concessions for it very positional disengenuity. Meaning, that narrow groups do not have special rights irrespective of all other groups' rights.

I hope you understand better where I come from.

This is not a HIDDEN AGENDA IF i EXPLAIN MY OWN PREMISE, IS IT?

If this is true, then there are many false so-called "Christian" teachers attacking the very core of Christianity every where you turn, using the Bible and calling themselves "Christian" for their own benefit.

Yet they are not under your scrutiny. Why?

Is it because they lie and say that they are "Christians" or they lie and say that they are "Born again" or whatever they have to say to blend in and infiltrate the churches to manipulate the flocks of good people who only search for Love, belonging and for God.

I have seen entire congregations do this, entire churches are doing this. Fake false Christians and false teachers.

Then they accuse each other, calling each other false teachers of Christianity until they manage to confuse everybody and people turn away from the whole religion idea and seek within themselves for God.

Yes, there are true Christians. But they are few.

My issue is not with them.

The pantheist view is not a doctrine. It is not even a religion. It is simply the belief that everyone and everything is part of the great body of God.

Within that great body, there are many universes. Many personalities. Many creators. And yes, many "gods" who call themselves gods.

BUT:

"God is Love."

JB

sorry wouldee the original post requires no metaphors or fantasy or faith or 2+2=5 ...all you had to do is give a rational explanation why your religion was created to save the world ..but if you notice all your responses are about death...

For me this isn’t even about a 'war' between religions. It’s about coming to the realization of what can and cannot be true.

I offer my personal experience of why the biblical story makes no sense and can’t possibly be true.

That’s my own personal experience. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with pantheism (which isn’t even a religion in the most technical sense – at least certainly not in a dogmatic sense).

However, I also realize that a lot of people who come to the realization that Christianity can’t be true often turn to atheism, and become bitter and cold having nothing spiritual left to believe in.

I like to point out to those people that pantheism makes perfect sense. It doesn’t conflict with anything. So it offers people who need spirituality (or who merely prefer spirituality) a very sensible and reasonable way to think of “God” as the most perfect and divine entity possible. There are no flaws in pantheism once it is truly understood.

However, having said that, it is still mystical and faith-based in the sense that it doesn’t explain the origin of God (but then neither does the Bible).

Although I would argue that even for pure atheists the pantheistic view is a very beautiful view. It can help them to see that they are part of something much larger, they are related to all living things, and they are ultimately a child of a universe that will ultimately reabsorb them. It will help them to see that birth and death are really the same thing. They are at each end of a finite incarnation.

The big assumption of the biblical story is that we come to be when we are born. But if our true nature is genuinely that of the spirit then why should we think of this in such a one-way fashion?

If you can believe that you’ll continue to exist after your body dies (whether you go to heaven or hell or whatever), then what’s so hard to believe that you actually existed before you were born?

Why should it be a one-way street?

If our true nature is spiritual then let it be so. Always.

Before Abraham was, I am. <--------- This is true for all of us.

There is no egotistical godhead who gets pissed off at everyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus.

That’s a myth.

The biblical stories may not make sense to you.....but they do too me.....And when you delve into the meat of the scripture the more you pull out of it...and the more amazing it truly is.

And as you feel pantheism is perfect and no flaws.....for me I see it as nothing but a flaw....imo. I believe that I am connected to the universe not only because of indian blood running through my veins but also because of God. All the rest just can't be for me.....but if it works for you abra....then ok. And God would never get pissed off at anyone for not believing in his son.....it saddens Him.

Now my biggest beef......Believe in your pathiest ways.....But please please please stop calling mine a myth.....as stronger as you believe that all is god.......I DO NOT AND WILL NOT EVER BELIEVE MINE TO BE A MYTH....

Response to Abra,

I agree with what you are saying.

I believe that the Christian doctrine and belief is flawed and not the true picture of the whole.

What I view as a "true Christian," is one who feels and practices what they believe to be the true teachings of Jesus in the order of brotherly love, faith, compassion etc. In other words, they embrace love and compassion, and not rules and dogma. They feel love and practice love, and are happy and joyful and loving etc. They are in love with love and they practice what they preach. They don't want to discuss the intellectual or dogmatic side of religion. They don't care about that really. They are high on love. That is all that matters to them.

I do suspect it is a temporary high though, and will not last, but I don't want to rain on their parade. It is like stepping on happy little fairies who are having a love-in.

I don't want to step on the fairies. I want to let them twinkle. I love the fairies.

JB

Abra I find reincarnation a fascinating belief. The continuation is wonderful, the level of lessons learned forever and ever is wonderful, being given more than one chance to get things right is also a wonderful idea. The only issue I have is where is the infinite pool of souls that keep being born from nowhere. Because the amount of people increases every day. If the souls are reborn every time then we would have a finite amount of souls to be reborn. That is my only issue with that belief. I think it is a very interesting though.

This is what I somewhat believe about incarnating. (Most of this idea is put forth by the Leading edge research group and I find that it makes sense and fits into the world view I have on the table.)

There are a limited number of higher selves incarnating on the earth planet.

These higher selves are beings of light who want to experience the earth game and spend many lives as whatever life forms live there.

These light beings dwell outside the realm of time and space as we know it here on earth.

When humans incarnate, they can incarnate in any time line they choose, so your next incarnation could be in what you view as the past or the future. To them, time is only a location inside the matrix.

Imagine a three dimensional movie that you could step into and become a character. (Like a holodeck program.) You can step into any character, at any time in the movie, or create a new character.

Each higher self lives many (human or alien or higher evolved beings) lives, around 1500 during the course of the "game" and these lives can be in any time and in any place and in any body.

So you could actually quite literally run into yourself in another life, or be your own grandfather.

Since humans incarnate simultaneously they loose the memory of their other lives in order to live each life separately.

Aliens (non-humans) incarnate sequentially so they live one life after another in a linear fashion and they retain who they are and their memory. This is why their spiritual evolution is so much slower than humans.

If a child is born and there is no higher self projecting to give it life, the earth spirit gives it life. The earth spirit is the higher self belonging the the planet.

If the earth spirit does not give it life, the child will sometimes just die for no reason some time after it is born.

These are my own considerations or opinions.

JB

This is much cleaner Abra.

Thanks for the effort.

I disagree with one assessment however, which I cannot find relevance for you to add value to your beliefs.

If it were not for Araham's God being called "I AM" I would have no trouble understanding your belifs and what they sincerely mean to you.

But clearly, "I AM" is a name given a very distinct and clear and concise meaning in Old Testament biblical scripture.

It only advances consistently into the advent and relevant presence of Jesus.

Now, that "I AM" is the only way to say that with words is understandable, and tha I find is consistent with what I expect your are trying to say.

But the suggestion is coming through that they are one in the same.

Somehow, that doesn't wash your concept of the God of the Bible that is abhorrant to you. That is fine with me as well.

That is even completely understandable, in fact.

Where I fail to see the need to share how this "I AM" is relevant in support of your belief ; when a biblical similarity is used to justify an extra-biblical concept. Especially in light of the relevance of that name to a biblical God, not of your affinity.

The leap is not logical.

yes, there seems a similarity, but why draw upon its convenience?

It is an inconsistency of yours that is paramount to your objections with the Biblical God at all in that you hold that the Biblical God is inconsistent in the first place.

Please, in all fairness, try to see the point.

Selective lifting from the Bible as a source of explanation for your belief sounds more like permission for the Bible to be inclusive in your extra-biblical belief.

Not to anger you, but this is what Islam did.

And Arian. He inspired Hitler, though Arian did not know it at the time. Many centuries of history seperate the two from one another.

I enjoy reading your work when you can successfully display it without bringing the Biblical God into the picture.

I especially like it when you can keep the two seperate in your own mind and remember that the twain shall never meet.

Success in keeping the distinctions clearly seperate means your work and your beliefs will never qualify as heretical to believers of God that hold the Holy Bible in high esteem.

It is heretical where your work borrows from the Holy Bible to support the credibility of your work.

The beauty of that clarity will also aid you in understanding the difference between your own beliefs and the beliefs others that do not share your point of view.

In the end, the distinction made adament to all that each is distinctive and different one from the other then gives rise to respect for each belief to enjoy not being blasphemous to any.

Mutual respect warrants that such should be the case.

Courage is required to test that, Abra.


There are many that cannot grasp Christianity.

Christianity does not enjoy being an altogether easy way of life, Abra.

However, Christians that do successfully embrace it in truth have a safe haven for wholesomeness and good clean simple joy.

We prefer to do without so much that world chooses to embrace.

We are home with the teachings of Jesus.

His humility and meekness and moral goodness and His teachings are a perfect fit for our hearts.

For us, Abra, Jesus is a pebble of calm in a raging sea of doubt and unbelief.

That makes us prey, Abra.

That means we can have our guard down when we should have our fists up.

But we have come to trust in His rest.

We are vulnerable to being abused and used, Abra.

Only a few like me come from hell to know Him.

From hell, I have come to know how to stand for peace.

Not hell as the anti-christ, abra, but the hell of the mean streets and the carnal depravity that seemd safer for me in my youth for not having any better place to expect survival to come from.

I escaped it, and then years later sought out God and found Jesus.

I am not representative of all Christians and I certainly do not speak for all of them, but I am saying that I know when to be on the fence and be a ram butting heads with wolves and when to rest with the sheep in the midst of the flock.

Perhaps by keeping clear lines of distinction between our different ways of life, we can all better motivated to cherish mutual respect and dignity for all.

I would not have laid down my sword had you not also laid down your inclusions of Christianity into your belief system, Abra.

Perspective is more important to me than agreeing with you about everything.

My perspective includes that you have yours, but not at the expense of mine.

Likewise, I am sure.

It’s actually this kind of rhetoric that causes Christians to become bigots and judgmental of non-believers.

This is basically suggesting that non-believers are unrighteous. This is what as known a demagoguery.

It’s telling people whatever it takes to keep them faithful. Make them believe that to even listen to anyone who doesn’t agree with the doctrine will get you in trouble with the lord, and those who are faithful will be rewarded.

Fear, and lust for reward , is precisely what makes cults so powerful.

These kinds of things serve no purpose whatsoever with respect to actually clarifying any stories. All this is, is ‘fill’. It’s just saying that if you believe in the doctrine you’ll be rewarded, if you don’t you’ll be punished. But it doesn’t offer any clues as to why the doctrine should be believed.

This is just wasted space in a book that already has no answers. I'm sure that most mythologies contain very similar demagoguery. This doesn't address any issue. It just promotes fear, lust, and superstition.

Actually I ignored this poem because it is a poem, and very ambiguous with hidden agenda that cannot be nailed down to any specific statement.

But I could interpret this poem to mean something completely different and completely opposite of the poster's intentions simply because it is so ambiguous.

"Blessed are you that do not walk
In the counsel of the unwise"

MEANS:
(Don't hang out with ignorant stupid shallow unwise people.
Of course it is a matter of your own opinion who these ignorant stupid shallow unwise people are.)


"Nor stand in the path of the unrighteous ones
Nor listen to their advice"

MEANS: Let the fools do their foolish things, don't try to stop them, and don't listen to their negativity or advice.

"But your delight and holy desire
Are the teachings of the Lord
Meditating by day and by night
Giving ear to God's holy law
Like a firmly planted tree
That is watered by the streams
You shall bear fruit in its season
And prosper in everything "

Except for the reference to "the Lord" this could simply mean that you should listen to the voice of God within you and have confidence in that.

In any case, poetry is an expression of something that is ambiguous for a reason. It allows the reader to interpret it in any way they choose and pardons the author from his or her propaganda.

I know because I am also a poet.

So is Abra.

abra,

listen carefully.

1.It is speaking to believers in the LORD, not the whole world.
there is no bigotry when one's belief is on a strong foundation.
It is not judgemental of differing beliefs, it is affirming the steadfastness of the LORD and His goodness to those that d believe in the LORD.

2. It speaksto the "unrighteous ones" which, simply put, better speaks to highwaymen. Robbers and thieves and murderers and rapists and torturous enslavers of men women and children that lurk in the wilderness at the time seeking to devour the poor and meek.

3.It is affirming to the believers at the time that the LORD does in fact warn his people when they listen to that small stii voice in ther being and obey it. It says nothing of force feeding one's wwill on others. That is precisely the opposite being depicted here. One who knows the LORD loves the LORD.

Were you there in those days to know otherwise?

He is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. He changes not.

4.Fear and lust are non-existent in these passages.

There is no fear in the LORD.

There is no LUST in the LORD

There is no fear and lust in the people of the LORD.

They have chosen the LORD over fear and lust.

5.Nowhere is punishment even slightly alluded to in these passages. The psalm is a song, abra.
the proverb is an affirmation of wisdom.
Wisdom is knowledge with understanding, defined as such within other Proverbs. You should read them to understand how relevant what type of knowledge is in the people of the LORD.
The Proverbs say several times that reverence of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and there is no wisdom which is not given but by the LORD.
Why is that so exclusive of goodness and mercy and compassion and sympathy in your interpretation?

The purpose which they serve is to preserve spiritual knowledge for the children in subsequent generations so that the children have a fuller benefit from their father's knowledge and understanding of the wisdom of the LORD, their Living God, abra.

This is not filler and diatribe,it is merely a blessing on the children from the fathers so that they understand the goodness of the LORD is not accidental.

6.promotion of fear, lust and superstition is no where to be found in these passages.

How could it possibly be speaking to the children of men living and dwelling in another hemisphere at the time.

They were not even aware of their existence, let alone threatened by them either.

The proverb says that the name carries the attributes mentioned

The song sings that the wisdom which is from the LORD is sure and bountiful and that like a well tended fruit tree, knowledge with understanding brings foodd for thought, just like gardening yields a harvest forr the belly, on this is for the soul.



let him that has eyes to see, see.

Let him that has ears to hear, hear.


This saying was said by the prophets of the LORD quite often i the days of these things.

At the least, you and I see and hear two different things in these passages.

You appear so wise in your monk robe.

I humbly bow to your awesome presence and wisdom.

Abra kneels on one knee at Jeannie's feet. His sword clanks, as its massive iron blade clashes with the ground. Bowing his head in reverence, he offers her a flower from the magical garden of love.

~~~

(oops! Can someone direct me to the Green Dragon's Inn? I think I’m in the wrong forum.)

Wouldee,

My point exactly. That is what poetry is all about.

JB

See abra this is where you are not entitled to tell me what to believe....If you don't believe it that is fine.....But in now way shape or form can you tell me not to believe......That was the point of doing the poems......for me it is written as it is meant for you it's a myth....And also understand this key point.....I am not the judge.....but believe this......God is.......so call once again names but the truth be told within the scriptures that you want to ignore.......go for it.....ignore.

These psalms mean one thing.....not up for interpretation and if your ears are so filled with the wax of the fools then you will never hear when the Lord truly tries to speak to you.........It is what it is....even if it doesn't fit your agenda or your beliefs....and wouldee was right on.....it was put forth for those that have their eyes and ears open........

Where did I tell you what to believe? I merely voiced what I believe. I share my thoughts as food for thought for others. You may ponder it or not as you choose.

People seem to be reading more in to my words than is written. We need signatures on our posts. I would simply include a disclaimer at the bottom of all my posts that it is nothing more than a personal opinion. I personally feel that this should be apparent without a disclaimer.




Now read your own words. You are telling me to believe that God is a judge . It also appears that you are telling me to believe that ‘the scriptures’ are his law by which he judges.

It appears from my point of view that you are attempting to tell me what to believe, not the other way around.



I have not denied what the authors of these poems may have had in mind. I’m quite sure that the did believe that biblical stories and folklore that preceded their writings and added to it with a mindset similar to yours.

When I say that these poems are demagoguery, that doesn’t mean that they were intentionally added to the Bible for the express purpose of deceiving the readers. On the contrary, the authors of these poems most likely believed in the biblical folklore up to that point just as you believe in the compete collection of stories called “The Bible” today.

If you were to write a beautiful poem today praising the biblical God and denouncing those who do not believe in Him, I would also view that as demagoguery. It rhetoric based on what you believe to be true and tailored to fit those believes, yet it has no foundation in substantiated truth. It is merely a unsubstantiated belief that you have. For me it would be no different from someone writing a poem about Zeus. You’d merely be writing poetry that supports what you already believe to be true. This is how I view the Psalms. It’s just the writings of people who are merely giving poetic support to something they passionately believe to be true.

But of utmost importance, it adds nothing to the overall story. If the Bible was truly inspired by God why would he bother including pretty poetry that just rehashes ideas that have already been put forth in the earlier writings. It adds nothing new and doesn’t address the questions, that even God would surely know that men would be asking. Instead of writing pretty poetry that basically says, “Believe this or face God’s wrath”, why not inspire the authors to write answer to the questions that are burning in the souls of men?

I believe that if a genuine God had inspired the writings of the biblical texts he would have made them much less ambiguous, and addressed more important issues that all men, even clergy, struggle with to this very day.

This I believe. Your mileage may vary.

Feralcatlady, you did say this:




Abra asked you the question:



I am interested in your answer to this question.

This is what you told him:




Above is you telling him what to believe.

And yet you have said that he "does not have the right" to tell you what to believe (which he has not done) and then you turn around and tell him what to believe.

So why do you think you have that right?

I am anxious for your answer.

JB