Okay, so I'm responsible for the actions of others? Actions that I don't condone? Well, that door swings both ways, so you are responsible for the 100 million kill by Communism. Grow up man. Pointing fingers is for kids. I wasn't alive, therefore I cannot be help responsible for the actions of those who were. And since their actions went directly against the teachings of Christianity, Christianity was an excuse and not the real reason for their actions. Christianity is innocent, it was merely a pawn in the crimes against humanity that some people commited.

Just FYI, adults and even children who think deeply don't argue this way. "I don't want to kill anybody" "Oh yeah! Well what about the crusades!" That's playground debating, it's pathetic.

Spider, please don’t view this as a personal attack against your belief. It most certainly is not.

However, I would like to point out to you why everything you just said most certainly appears to me that what you are claiming is precisely as absurd as claiming that 2+2=5.

I’ll take them one issue at a time,…



You state this as though it is an indisputable fact, but clearly it is not. Many people have raised the very serious concern that the persona differences between Jesus and the God of Abraham are diametrically opposed.

The God of Abraham taught the people to stone sinners – in fact they were still doing this very thing in the days of Jesus. They were being obedient to the directives that were taught to them by the God of Abraham of the Old Testament. Yet Jesus was clearly against this practice and made that perfectly clear.

So there is one example where this unchanging God changed his persona.

The God of Abraham also taught the people revenge and vengence. An-ye-for-a-eye and a-tooth-for-a-tooth. Jesus disagreed with this. Jesus taught to turn the other cheek and if someone steals from you to give them to cloak as well. Again this is a complete turn around from the persona of the God of the Old Testament.

I see these two things very clearly just off the top of my head, I imagine with a more in-depth study I could probably come up with more. But even these two very profound difference clearly show that this biblical God changes over time and is not a rock or unchanging.

In fact, I just realized another example just whilst sitting here typing this. The God of the Old Testament always used violent methods directed at sinners, not directed at himself. Like when he turned Lott’s wife into a pillar of salt, or drown out the whole of the human population save for a boatload of people and animals.

However, Jesus was completely the opposite. Instead of directing his wrath toward the sinners, he sacrificed himself supposedly for their sake. That is an compete and utter change in persona.

So your claim that the biblical God is a rock appears to me like you are claiming that 2+2=5. Your claim is utterly and obviously incorrect to anyone who even considers the problem even just fleetingly. It’s clearly not true, the persona of Jesus is diametrically opposed to the persona of the God of Abraham.

That’s just your first claim.

Let’s move on to your second claim,… and again keep in mind that this is not a personal attack on you. I’m merely address the issue precisely as it is given in the topic of this thread and base don your response to that topic.




Clearly no one will go to war for brotherly love or to love their neighbors. But if that’s all Christianity is about then why is it constantly at war with the rest of the world? If Christians truly exhibited brotherly love and loving their neighbors no one would have a problem with Christianity. But it’s simply not true, that can’t be all there is to it, otherwise no one would have a problem with it,…

What is the problem with Christianity? What is their core belief REALLY?

Well, it’s actually two-fold,.. so let’s take them one at a time,….

The First Core Belief of Christianity,…

Jesus Christ is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, and everyone must bow down on their knees to him and confess with their lips that he is the one and only God and creator of this universe.

Anyone who is not willing to confess that this is the truth will be shunned by the Christian community and label as a non-believer. They will be considered to be either lost, rebellious, or outright possessed by evil demons and siding with an imaginary demon named Satan who is the enemy of their God.

So in fact Christians not only demand that people believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but then they also demand that people believe in Satan as their number one enemy! After all, without Satan what is there to be saved from? Jesus is nothing without Satan in this picture!

That’s just a cold hard fact of the biblical picture.

When you ask people to believe in Jesus as their Savior you are simultaneously asking them to believe in Satan as their enemy. Your belief in Jesus can be no less than your belief in Satan. Jesus depends on Satan to give him meaning. In this biblical picture, without Satan, Jesus is meaningless.

So already we are far beyond the simple concept of “brotherly love” as you have claimed and we are already into a war-mongering mentality that anyone who hasn’t aligned themselves with Jesus is either still up for grabs, or has already aligned themselves with the demon that gives Jesus’ sacrificial death meaning.

Christianity demands that God is at war with a demon and that people much choose sides. You’re either with Jesus or against him. This almost makes Jesus sound like George W. Bush.

You’re claim that brotherly love is the core believe of Christian is simply untrue. That may have one of the messages of Jesus, but it certainly isn’t the core belief of Christianity.

The Second Core Belief of Christianity,…

So far we have just been putting the spotlight on Jesus and Satan (and we can forget about Satan because he is precisely equal to Jesus in importance in this religion). Without Satan Jesus’ sacrificial crucifixion would have no meaning. Satan gives meaning to that act.

And this leads us to the second core belief of Christianity, and that is that the entire Old Testament must also be the true word of God. And everything that is taught in it must be respected and obeyed as the law of God.

Well, we’ve already got a war mentality between believers and non-believes in Jesus from the first core belief of Christianity, and now this second core belief gives us the details to feed the flames of this war.

The Old Testament must be included and believed to be the word of God! Why? Because without it the idea of Jesus as being the sacrificial lamb of God is totally meaningless. The very crucifixion of Jesus depends entirely on a belief in this Old Testament and the God of Abraham (who we already saw is diametrically opposed in persona with respect to Jesus).

In fact, the old testament is where most of the agitating crap come from. Like the idea that same-gender relationships are a sin. Jesus never taught that. This idea is dug up out of the Old Testament from the God who is diametrically opposed to Jesus.

So what does that do to your claim that the core belief of Christianity is brotherly love???

Well, let’s rewrite it,…

The core belief of Christianity is to love brothers, unless they are gay, then it’s ok to shun them and say that they are being disobedience to God and need help to see the evil in their ways!

That’s an extremely bigoted way to love thy neighbor!!!

I could go on and on and on with this,… but his post is already humongous.

I hope that you realize that you claim that Christianity is all about brotherly love appears to be to be total hogwash. On the contrary the core belief of Christianity appears to me to be all about prejudice, judgments and even hatred toward non-believers and so-called ‘sinners’.

The claims about the core belief of Christianity are totally unfounded. If that’s what you really believe is true about Christianity I can only suggest that you don’t understand the religion at all.

If you want to just live on the principle that all men are egalitarian brothers and should love one another, then I suggest you become a pantheist, because that’s more closer to the core belief of pantheism than it is to Christianity. Pantheism believes that we are all just one big family and there is no Satan at war with God.

Christianity is actually based much more on the need for Satan then it is on the need for Jesus. In the biblical picture, Satan is actually more important to the plot than Jesus is. Without Satan Jesus has no meaning. An I’m not saying this to insult anyone’s love for Jesus, I’m just saying it because it’s true about the overall biblical story in general. With out Satan, Jesus’ sacrificial crucifixion is totally meaningless.

In fact, in my personal opinion, it’s even meaningless with Satan, but that’s a whole other topic.

Everything I’ve said in this post is my serious genuine belief. To claim that the core belief of Christianity is brotherly love is totally untrue. That’s far from the core belief. The core belief is that the entire biblical picture is correct and must be viewed as the only true law of God. That’s the core belief that Christianity is trying to shove down the throats of all humanity. That’s hardly a concept of brotherly love.

If you want a religion that has true brotherly love as its core belief then turn to pantheism. It's nothing but true brotherly love.

you said God was unchanging..and if that was true then God wouldn't have changed into a burning bush or changed into Jesus ..as for God's character changing ..I mean who would know that..God flooded the planet when people didn't live by his laws...so far Jesus didn't flood the planet...so maybe his character changed




a belief that doesn't change is called truth not a belief ..a truth required proof...a belief only requires faith



yes rich american infidel believe it or not there are people so hungry that would start a war over that single can of green beans



well it may depends on the smell..some people may believe that farting is a result of demons trying to come out..which isn't to far from the truth ..and may kill that person and the result of them killing that person may start a war...you are trying to say that war is only done for rational reasons...it is not



people assume they know the reason why people are warring ..the reason is simply ...it's called human nature .. in nature nothing goes to waste so everything is used and therefore have the potential to have someone cause war over it



people die...wheather they died for nothing is in the eye of the beholder ..but did any of the ones you name claim their mission was to be killed like Jesus did

Abra,

I take this all very serously and I have tired very hard to get through to you. But you constantly rehash the same arguments. Nobody can read the whole of the Bible can come away with the view that the God of the Old Testament wasn't the same as the God of the New. The ONLY way someone can come to that conclusion is if they took verses out of context. Jonah ran from God, because God was too forgiving. God allowed the Canaanites 400 years to change their ways. God's laws offered mercy to the foreigner, orphans and widows and demanded justice for the rich and the poor. God's laws teach humility and long suffering. Abra, I wish for once you would listen to the arguments I present and not prepare arguements as you read, but actually listen with an open heart. When the Old Testament is read in context and knowing the defintions of the words, the picture is no different than the picture painted by the New Testament.

Aren't you tired of the same arguments? Doesn't it wear on your heart? I grow so tired of having to defend the same ground with every post. Look at what Jesus said of Jerusalem, how they killed every prophet God ever sent there. But yet God still forgave them and Jesus said "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" God mourned the fact that the only way to get Jerusalem in line was to punish them. God would prefer to lavish his children with love and blessings, but the Old Testament shows that every attempt to do that resulted in the people rebelling.

I hope that something I have posted has touched you and that you take this post in the way it is intended. I can't take any more arguments. I can't cover the same ground with every post and every day have to repeat why the Old Testament tells the same story as the New and God did not change from one to the next.

ok so you only "think" you can see my house which is your way of saying that you can only make an assumption ..and that's how the rest of that post should be viewed ..you making assumptions

Actually 10 + 10 = 100. If you are looking at it the right way. Let me give you a hint. I never said ten + ten = one hundred. I said 10 + 10 = 100.

Its simple if you know what I am talking about.

Funchies,

I will no longer talk to you. You aren't here for rational discussions, you speak gibberish and expect me to treat it like wisdom.

Chazster ... we are typing and people mis-spell words or place decimal points or periods in the wrong places ..so if I wanted an eye test I will go to the DMV ...could you just debate without playing reindeer games ..

..geez..spidercmb ..are you sure you're not my ex-girlfriend ..you sure in the hell sound like her

I pray to Mel Gibson j/k

I was giving people a chance to figure it out. Seeing that a lot of computer people come here I was hoping someone would say it. Anyway its Binary. 10 or one then zero is binary for 2 100 is binary for 4. I was basically saying 2 + 2 = 4 but I was doing it using binary math.

Was just trying to make a point that while you may think something is wrong (say 10 + 10 = 100), it may in fact be right. It just depends on the meaning and how you look at it.

Too much work for me to figure out lol

and here we have it,

ad infinitum.....

how pantheism hinges on false teachings of Christiianity by the renunciated misapprehensions of Christianity by the author of this post.

Incessantly and belligerantly deconstructing Christianity from the position of never having entered into the faith in truth and certainly not teaching it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit which is prerequisite for waking the walk.

trying to support pantheism on the back of a false teahing and in complete ignorance of the authority to teach Christianity is the perfect repudiation of pantheism and its proseytizers that through hypocrisy declare proselyzing is solely the tactic of Christians bashing all other religious beliefs once again.

Christianity only serves to exemplify that disengenuous teachings need to villify Christianity to find adherents.

This incessant and insulting offensive tactic is at the core of the problem in these threads.

Justifying ones own beliefs with the ill willed intention of deconstructing aonther faith with lies and distortions only intended to inflame and incite strife and contention and endless argumentative discourses only succeeding in degenerating into personal attacks on the beliefs of others and attemting to divorce those attacks under the cloak od hiiden agendas that deceitfully disguise th e true intent of being the vehicle for personal attacks on oters not of the view of such licentious and marginal contrarian fabrications and machinations.

This is the veru repulsive and insulting offence that engenders all hatred and contempts of Christianity and the faith and its adherents which are inseparaably the faith itself.

It is an enmass personal attack on one and all that hoold Christianity as immutably the truth given by God to man.

It is not the means to an end for any t climb over contemptuously in agression with a hidden agenda to continually antagonize Christians.

That is assumptive in and of itself.

sounds like OCD, my friend.

I am laughing with you Funches.

all the way down the rabbit hole.

got a flashlight?

There are several issues here Spider that you are clearly in denial of.

First, you claim is that the core of Christianity is brotherly love.

I point out the obvious fact that this is not true

The first core belief of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords, and anyone who isn’t willing to accept this is shunned as an outsider, a nonbeliever, and someone who is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

This is hardly brotherly love.

The second core belief of Christianity is that the entire biblical story must be the word of God and an evil angel who is at war with God must be true otherwise the sacrificial crucifixion of Jesus has not meaning. Therefore the entire Old Testament must be taken as the word of God and the will of God.

Again, what does this have to do with brotherly love? Nothing!

It has to do with an insistent that an ancient archaic book that was written by ignorant men is the word of God. (and yes, they most certainly were ignorant with respect to what we understand about our place in the universe today, and how disease and natural events occur)

Is it really brotherly love to insist that I view this book at the word of God?

I don’t think so. Yet this is precisely what Christianity demands. It’s impossible to respect Jesus as “God” without also respecting that the entire biblical picture is the word of God. They go hand-in-hand. They are inseparable. The crucifixion of Jesus has absolutely no meaning outside of the entirety of the biblical picture. The story is about a Male God who can only forgive sins if He is appeased by a blood sacrifice.

This notion become so imbedded in the religion it was taken to hilt with the story of this God sending His only begotten Son to earth to be murdered by men as a blood sacrifice to appease the very same God who send His Son to be slaughter.

Not to mention the fact that Jesus is supposed to be worshiped as the actual God in this picture! He’s appeasing Himself with His own blood sacrifice, and at the same time sending a message to men that says, “Here, if you disobey me one more time and commit murder and kill me I’ll forgive you of your sins”.

This is the core belief of Christianity whether Christians want to own up to it or not.

It’s a totally self-inconsistent archaic superstitious belief in a supposedly all-powerful God who is at war with a fallen angel and who is appeased by blood sacrifices. A God who sends mixed messages about how to handle problems and/or solve them. A God who clearly has lost control of his own creation to the point where he had to drown them all out one time, and has been at continuous war with a fallen angel the whole way through the entire creation.

You ask me if it doesn’t wear hard on my heart to object to the teaching of this gory absurd picture?

No, not at all. I don’t believe I could a more humanitarian thing.

I am doing the work of the true living God by trying to get people to see that they have been duped by their ancient ancestors. Not as a purposeful intent to trick them, but simply by constructing a religion via ignorance and superstitions beliefs.


The story is ultimate one that divides people into two camps, those who believe the story, and those who are called “non-believers” and viewed as siding with the demon Satan, or at the very least being ‘lost sheep’ who need to be herded into the safety of the ‘belief’.

I’m sorry Spider, but I’m as weary of hearing this as you are weary of hearing opposition to it.

It’s most certainly not about brotherly love.

I personally think it’s very say that so many people have been brainwashed into believing that.

They focus on Jesus and his teachings of brotherly love, but then support the whole rest of the myth by proselytizing Christianity. But Christianity isn’t about brotherly love at all. It about believing in a blood thirsty God who lost control of a demonic angel, and has written a book that supposed contains laws that everyone must obey and be judged by!

It doesn’t spread brother love.

It spreads bigotry and prejudice and causes people to judge others.

It instills Bigotry in that anyone who is not a believer is seen as a “non-believer” and is therefore shunning God, lost and confused, or at the very worst actually purposefully siding with the demonic Satan.

It instills Prejudice against same-gender love, premarital intimacy, and even instills guilt into people for doing things so natural and healthy as masturbating. (it has been shown that it is much healthier to release sexual tension than not) So why instill guilt in children for doing what comes natural as they reach puberty? That just give them an early and unnecessary guilt complex for being a natural human being.

It also causes people to judge others. Whether Christians realize it or not, they automatically judge all non-Christians to be rejecting God, or at the very least to be lost, confused, or possessed by Satan’s demons.

Disclaimer: Before people start star objecting that “all Christians aren’t like that”, let me make it perfectly clear,… If they don’t believe this then they truly don’t believe in Christianity as a religion. Because the overall story says that Jesus is at war with Satan. Jesus is God remember?

It’s easy to say, “Oh I’m a Christian by I believe there are many pathways to God”.

That’s a farce. That’s just people kidding themselves. That what I called “Designer Christians”. They want to believe that Jesus saved their souls, and the love what he preached about brotherly love, but they really aren’t interested in believing the rest of the crap because they know that it’s precisely as absurd as I keep telling people!

They want to “Save” Jesus is what it really comes down to.

They want to believe that he is their Lord and Savoir but at the same time they don’t want to buy into the whole rest of the dogma. Well, wake up people! It can’t work like that. You either swallow the whole story hook, line, and sinker, or the crucifixion of Jesus has no meaning.

That's just the way it has to be. Jesus has no meaning outside of Satan and a God who is appeased by blood sacrifices. That's just the facts of the story.

dont be so dramatic, the religion you follow is responsible for the untold suffering and deaths of millions and millions of people..if you need to turn a blind eye so that you can balance between the contradictions between faith and dogma, then do what ever you need to do. You may personally not condone it, but you follow a religion that does..as far as Im concerned you may as well have the mask and stick in hand. Because if you really believe as you do..when god calls, you should be ready for the ultimate battle shouldnt you?? That is if you REALLY are a follower of your religion. Christianity inst a buffet, you cant take what you like and leave the rest behind.

So the answer is no. Fine, I have no interest in talking to you anymore. I will ignore your posts as if they were never made. Your words are but the howling of the wind.

What does this have to do with anything we were discussing? Nothing. It's a strawman. It's guilt by association. it's stupid. It's moronic. It's pathetic. You should be ashamed for making this post.

this is the best you can come up with? I am not ashamed, but it seems that you are when you get called out on your own hipocracy and the hipocracy of your dogmatic christianity...

In what way is anything I’ve said insulting?

All I’m doing is stating the facts Wouldee. Why should you find that insulting?

The core belief of Christianity is not brotherly love, but rather it is a relentless insistence that the biblical account of God’s laws be given the ultimately authority and respect.

Anyone who tries to make Christianity into something other than that is just abusing the label.

All they are doing is stealing the label of Christianity and trying to make it into something its not.

The problem with Christianity is that you can’t just preach the teachings of Jesus without simultaneously supporting the whole Old Testament. Jesus is nothing on his own. Without the old testament and a God who is appeased by blood sacrifices the crucifixion is meaningless.

And even with the Old Testament it’s just a story about a God who ends up being a blood sacrifice to appease himself. He has to have men commit yet another murder in order to forgive them of their sins.

It doesn’t even make any sense at all.

This is supposed to be an all-wise God?

Surely an all-wise God could come up with better solutions than having to have men commit murder so he could forgive them.

This story may make sense to you, but it totally flies in the face of anything I would even consider to be remotely reasonable.

And if you find that insulting or offensive I seriously don’t understand Wouldee. It’s just my sincere honest perception of this whole archaic picture.

If I’m going to be honest with God I would have to tell God the very same thing. If somehow the picture turns out to true (which would be like an episode of the Outer Limits), then I’d have to be honest with the biblical God and say, “From my point of view you really aren’t a very good creator at all. What was with the obsession with so much blood and violience?”

That honesty Wouldee. And if I can’t be honest with God then who can I be honest with?

Why should I bow down to a picture that I see as being totally absurd?

I don’t believe God is like that story at all.

If he truly wanted to preach brotherly love why didn’t he lead by example instead of demaning blood sacrifices for sins? What’s that got to do with brotherly love? It’s like saying, “Go kill something and I’ll forgive you”. What the point in that? I thought God didn’t want us to kill things.

It’s a story about a God who sends extremely mixed messages.

That's just the facts.