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| Topic: Fried hummingbird | |
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abra....is your sister a vagan because of a religious belief or that is just her view???? my aunt is vegan because of a religious belief...just not sure which one it is this week lol. she changes all the time No. She's not religious at all. Although she refuses to be called an 'atheist' or 'agnostic' either. 
When it comes to religion she just refuses to even recognize the concept at all. She won't use the word "God" at all either. I'm not sure what the hell she is to be honest. Although when she talks about things I really get more of a sense of pantheism than atheism from her. She does believe that everything is one (and that's pantheism) so I think she's a pantheist in denial. She claims that she's a vegan for health reasons as well as for compassion for animals (she won't talk in terms of morality). I have argued that raising animals for food (in a healthy and plesant environment) will at least give them a short opportunity for life, whereas refusing to raise them for food would more likely result in them not being given the opportunity for life at all. She does recognize that I have a point there, but she still takes the view that it would be better for them to not live at all than to be raised for food. I'm not sold on that myself. However, I do accept her idea that we simply don't need to eat meat. I agree with that. It's not a necessity and if the world became vegetarian tomorrow I could live with that. In fact, that would make my life easier because becoming a vegetarian would be extremely easy then. All the fast food places would all be vegetarian. It would be easy to be a vegetarian if that were the case. |
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true story here (basically i was a brat to my older sister growing up lol)
my sis and i are as different as day and night on almost everything but we are best friends NOW lol. my sister wouldn't eat meat because she thought it was cruel. me being the brat i was...the faimly went to a steak house....she had salad...i had steak (medium rare). my sister got on me for it and told me how wrong i was. i put my fork under the steak and made the steak beat and made a heart beat noise. yes i know...i was wrong for that...but it was funny. the real funy part was when my mom yelled at us for it....this was only about 5 yrs ago too lol. i was 31 then and she was 33...i remain a brat lol |
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I don't know but it seems that our teeth are duel purpose--front teeth for tearing and molars for grinding/chewing which would seem more like something adapted for animal consumption. I also think it is fairly simple in that protein is generally found in animal products (as are fats) both of which we need some of to live in a healthy way. That is not to say that one cannot live vegetarian or vegan (though I am not sure about the Vegan part as most Vegans I've met always look as if they are bout five days away from Christopher McCandless land) but regardless, it seems somewhat logical that we were designed/evolved to eat animals. Besides, outside of milk, hamburger, and baseball gloves, can anyone tell me what the hell a cow is good for?
-Drew |
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Abra...i agree with everything except the NEED part. only because my sister and i have a hereditary blood disease and we have to have the protein from the meat. vitamins etc don't help us. my sister has it very bad (mine may never get that way) but she is bed ridden from it. she had to start eating meat because of it. if she could take vitamins or soething and get what she needs...then she would. there is something about actual meat that we have to ave and we wouldn't get from other things
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leather for boots etc. the native americans used the hides from many animals for blankets etc. as far as the hides go these days...i think it's more for fashion though. good points drew
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I'm not religious, but I do consider myself spiritual in nature. I will only kill an animal for self-preservation - to survive - if that animal has selected me as prey, or I have selected it, or it endangers my environment in some way. I believe that sport killing is inherently wrong. All living things serve a purpose. Some animals, and plants as well, are obviously here, primarily, to be utilized as food. Some are here to be part of the control process (predators, scavengers); others perform more aesthetic roles. In addition, any of these creatures can also be selected as a companion; one of the great paradoxes of mankind. The general rule seems to be, the more intelligent and/or the more similar to us, the less likely we are to consider them as a food source. Plants scream, by the way, when they are injured. We just can't hear them. 
Interesting |
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How do you morally justify being a vegetarian over a meat eater?
Believe it or not I do take this question quiet seriously because the line between animal and plant life really is a manmade classification. However, my own personal distinction comes down to the idea, of obvious consciousness, and obvious discomfort or stress. Plants don’t seem to mind being grown in gardens. Ripe fruit normally falls from plants anyway shortly after it has become ripe. So eating fruit from fruit bearing plants would be like drinking milk from milk cow. It doesn’t necessarily cause the animal any harm. Root crops are another matter. We should have funeral services for carrots, beets, and potatoes when we eat them.
Seriously though, I just don’t see plants as being highly enough evolved to even know what’s going on. I don’t believe that plants even have a notion of self. But I think that animals do. At least the more highly evolved ones that we typically eat for food. I’m personally not morally against eating animals. I’m much more concerned with how they are raised and kept before we eat them (that’s not really an issue for hunting). That’s more of an issue for commercial animal food. And I don’t even really have a problem with that if they animals are raised in a truly comfortable and pleasing environment. Unfortunately that’s not the case for many commercially raised animals. Many of them are raised in very small cages or stalls and spend their entire lives in that situation until they are harvested for food. I do have moral problems with that kind of inhumane treatment. I used to raise and eat chickens myself. But my chickens were free to roam. They were quite comfortable and happy during their lives as far as I could tell. They never tried to run off even though they were free to range, and I didn’t even need to chase them to harvest them. They would come right to me without a problem. I justify it by looking at it this way,… if I wasn’t a meat eater, I wouldn’t have been raising chickens. So in a very real sense I’m giving them an opportunity for at least a short well-cared for life. As far as I’m concerned that’s better than no life at all. From my point of view if vegans had their way then no one would raise chickens. So instead of them getting a short life and ending up as food, they would get no chance at life at all. From that point of view being a meat eater actually gives the animals at lease some opportunity to life. Like I say, it’s a complex issue. As far as hunting is concerned. I just don’t see the thrill in the kill. To me that just seems weird that people would actually enjoy hunting just so they can kill something. It also doesn’t seem like much of a sport considering that the animal is totally unarmed, and totally unaware that someone is going to shoot it from a hundred yards away with a high-powered rifle with a 15x scope on it.
Where’s the thrill in that? Now if you go out and hunt a deer with your bear hands I might be impressed. As I have stated, Not everyone was meant to be the hunter and not everyone was meant to be the gatherer. I am not really trying to argue about not eating plants, I'm just stating that I think plants and animals are very much alive. When a fruit gets ripe and falls from the tree, vine or whatever, it is all a part of their reproductive process. So, if we pick all the fruit, we are then preventing new life form happening. Fortunately, God gave man wisdom to plant new plants and he also gave the bees wisdom to pollinate them. If you think you just go out in the woods hunting and you kill a dumb animal every time, you are wrong. Animals are very smart and are often aware that they are a prey. Trust me, a turkey will let a deer walk into a field before it sets foot out there. I do believe however, that there are some hunters that don't belong in the woods. |
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I don't know but it seems that our teeth are duel purpose--front teeth for tearing and molars for grinding/chewing which would seem more like something adapted for animal consumption. I also think it is fairly simple in that protein is generally found in animal products (as are fats) both of which we need some of to live in a healthy way. That is not to say that one cannot live vegetarian or vegan (though I am not sure about the Vegan part as most Vegans I've met always look as if they are bout five days away from Christopher McCandless land) but regardless, it seems somewhat logical that we were designed/evolved to eat animals. Besides, outside of milk, hamburger, and baseball gloves, can anyone tell me what the hell a cow is good for? -Drew Good points |
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How do you morally justify being a vegetarian over a meat eater?
Believe it or not I do take this question quiet seriously because the line between animal and plant life really is a manmade classification. However, my own personal distinction comes down to the idea, of obvious consciousness, and obvious discomfort or stress. Plants don’t seem to mind being grown in gardens. Ripe fruit normally falls from plants anyway shortly after it has become ripe. So eating fruit from fruit bearing plants would be like drinking milk from milk cow. It doesn’t necessarily cause the animal any harm. Root crops are another matter. We should have funeral services for carrots, beets, and potatoes when we eat them.
Seriously though, I just don’t see plants as being highly enough evolved to even know what’s going on. I don’t believe that plants even have a notion of self. But I think that animals do. At least the more highly evolved ones that we typically eat for food. I’m personally not morally against eating animals. I’m much more concerned with how they are raised and kept before we eat them (that’s not really an issue for hunting). That’s more of an issue for commercial animal food. And I don’t even really have a problem with that if they animals are raised in a truly comfortable and pleasing environment. Unfortunately that’s not the case for many commercially raised animals. Many of them are raised in very small cages or stalls and spend their entire lives in that situation until they are harvested for food. I do have moral problems with that kind of inhumane treatment. I used to raise and eat chickens myself. But my chickens were free to roam. They were quite comfortable and happy during their lives as far as I could tell. They never tried to run off even though they were free to range, and I didn’t even need to chase them to harvest them. They would come right to me without a problem. I justify it by looking at it this way,… if I wasn’t a meat eater, I wouldn’t have been raising chickens. So in a very real sense I’m giving them an opportunity for at least a short well-cared for life. As far as I’m concerned that’s better than no life at all. From my point of view if vegans had their way then no one would raise chickens. So instead of them getting a short life and ending up as food, they would get no chance at life at all. From that point of view being a meat eater actually gives the animals at lease some opportunity to life. Like I say, it’s a complex issue. As far as hunting is concerned. I just don’t see the thrill in the kill. To me that just seems weird that people would actually enjoy hunting just so they can kill something. It also doesn’t seem like much of a sport considering that the animal is totally unarmed, and totally unaware that someone is going to shoot it from a hundred yards away with a high-powered rifle with a 15x scope on it.
Where’s the thrill in that? Now if you go out and hunt a deer with your bear hands I might be impressed. As I have stated, Not everyone was meant to be the hunter and not everyone was meant to be the gatherer. I am not really trying to argue about not eating plants, I'm just stating that I think plants and animals are very much alive. When a fruit gets ripe and falls from the tree, vine or whatever, it is all a part of their reproductive process. So, if we pick all the fruit, we are then preventing new life form happening. Fortunately, God gave man wisdom to plant new plants and he also gave the bees wisdom to pollinate them. If you think you just go out in the woods hunting and you kill a dumb animal every time, you are wrong. Animals are very smart and are often aware that they are a prey. Trust me, a turkey will let a deer walk into a field before it sets foot out there. I do believe however, that there are some hunters that don't belong in the woods. Our wild turkeys are overpopulated. They are not afraid of anything and will even stand next to the road waiting for your car to go by so they can cross. You could almost hunt them with a nine iron.
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How do you morally justify being a vegetarian over a meat eater?
Believe it or not I do take this question quiet seriously because the line between animal and plant life really is a manmade classification. However, my own personal distinction comes down to the idea, of obvious consciousness, and obvious discomfort or stress. Plants don’t seem to mind being grown in gardens. Ripe fruit normally falls from plants anyway shortly after it has become ripe. So eating fruit from fruit bearing plants would be like drinking milk from milk cow. It doesn’t necessarily cause the animal any harm. Root crops are another matter. We should have funeral services for carrots, beets, and potatoes when we eat them.
Seriously though, I just don’t see plants as being highly enough evolved to even know what’s going on. I don’t believe that plants even have a notion of self. But I think that animals do. At least the more highly evolved ones that we typically eat for food. I’m personally not morally against eating animals. I’m much more concerned with how they are raised and kept before we eat them (that’s not really an issue for hunting). That’s more of an issue for commercial animal food. And I don’t even really have a problem with that if they animals are raised in a truly comfortable and pleasing environment. Unfortunately that’s not the case for many commercially raised animals. Many of them are raised in very small cages or stalls and spend their entire lives in that situation until they are harvested for food. I do have moral problems with that kind of inhumane treatment. I used to raise and eat chickens myself. But my chickens were free to roam. They were quite comfortable and happy during their lives as far as I could tell. They never tried to run off even though they were free to range, and I didn’t even need to chase them to harvest them. They would come right to me without a problem. I justify it by looking at it this way,… if I wasn’t a meat eater, I wouldn’t have been raising chickens. So in a very real sense I’m giving them an opportunity for at least a short well-cared for life. As far as I’m concerned that’s better than no life at all. From my point of view if vegans had their way then no one would raise chickens. So instead of them getting a short life and ending up as food, they would get no chance at life at all. From that point of view being a meat eater actually gives the animals at lease some opportunity to life. Like I say, it’s a complex issue. As far as hunting is concerned. I just don’t see the thrill in the kill. To me that just seems weird that people would actually enjoy hunting just so they can kill something. It also doesn’t seem like much of a sport considering that the animal is totally unarmed, and totally unaware that someone is going to shoot it from a hundred yards away with a high-powered rifle with a 15x scope on it.
Where’s the thrill in that? Now if you go out and hunt a deer with your bear hands I might be impressed. As I have stated, Not everyone was meant to be the hunter and not everyone was meant to be the gatherer. I am not really trying to argue about not eating plants, I'm just stating that I think plants and animals are very much alive. When a fruit gets ripe and falls from the tree, vine or whatever, it is all a part of their reproductive process. So, if we pick all the fruit, we are then preventing new life form happening. Fortunately, God gave man wisdom to plant new plants and he also gave the bees wisdom to pollinate them. If you think you just go out in the woods hunting and you kill a dumb animal every time, you are wrong. Animals are very smart and are often aware that they are a prey. Trust me, a turkey will let a deer walk into a field before it sets foot out there. I do believe however, that there are some hunters that don't belong in the woods. Our wild turkeys are overpopulated. They are not afraid of anything and will even stand next to the road waiting for your car to go by so they can cross. You could almost hunt them with a nine iron.
Maybe so in Minnesota, Happy hunting, or golfing for that matter! FORE! |
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As I have stated, Not everyone was meant to be the hunter and not everyone was meant to be the gatherer.
Agreed. I’m definitely more of a gardener than a hunter to be sure. But I do understand that the hunter instinct does run in the blood of some more than others. I have no problem killing an animal for food. I used to raise chicken and I wasn’t overly bothered by harvesting him. I must confess though that its wasn’t my favorite activity. It’s certainly not something I would do for pleasure or excitement (but that’s not the same as hunting either). Years ago I used to hunt dear. But it wasn’t the hunt that I was interested in. I did it just to fill my freezer with meat. In fact, I didn’t even go hunting. All I did was go out in my back yard and sit down and wait. With all the hunters in the woods keeping all the deer running for their lives it wasn’t long before one would come by and I’d just shoot it. It never even knew that I was there. To me it wasn’t even hunting, it was more like harvesting a chicken. In fact, one year (after I had quit harvesting deer), my dogs took off running into the woods, so I chased after them to see what they were chasing. Here is was a wounded deer. It was hunting season and someone had shot the poor thing in the butt and it was disorientated and weak. My three dogs had surrounded it and it was just standing there in a kind of daze. There was a creek nearby so I went and grabbed a large rock. I walked up to the dazed deer and whacked it on the back of the head with the rock. The blow was well-placed and the deer fell instantly to the ground in a heap. Out cold. I then continued to bash its scull in to be sure it would never wake up. Don’t take that story lightly. That was a deeply emotional moment for me. But I really felt that I was putting the dear out of it’s misery. I took the carcass home and harvested it. After all, I knew what the problem was. It had been shot in the butt by a careless hunter. He must have been using slugs in a shotgun because he really tore the butt off that poor animal. Anyway, now I’m a legend in my hometown. I’m known as the man who hunts deer with a rock.
Everyone says that in addition to gun season and bow season they’ll need to open up a rock season. I do believe however, that there are some hunters that don't belong in the woods
Absolutely. A lot of men who go hunting from the cities aren’t really hunters, they’re just going with the flow for something to do. And a lot of them think it’s macho. Plus, it’s an excuse to camp out and drink beer. But there are serious hunters, and I do have a respect for them. Even though I don’t feel that way myself, I know that we are all different. Evidently the instinct and need to hunt does seem to be quite profound in some men more than others. My brother-in-law as a very serious hunter. He took his hunting almost to a religious level. He would ceremonially eat the heart of every animal he killed. He would eat the heart first before any of the other meat. He said that he was consuming the spirit of the animal to be renewed within him. This is in-line with the traditions of some North American Indian cultures. I mean, clearly it’s a symbolic gesture. But it shows a great reverence toward his prey. I think anyone would have to respect that, especially when they understand how spiritually he viewed it. I have not disrespect for hunters. I do have disrespect for macho egotists who are just trying to impress the guys and gals by murdering the biggest trophy they can find. Like I say, it’s a complex topic for me. I see nothing wrong with eating unborn eggs. And, as I’ve already stated in previous posts, I really don’t see a problem with raising animals for food if it’s done humanely. (or hunting for that matter). But as a macho sport just for a casual thrill??? I just don’t see it. If I had to vote on the issue politically, I’ve vote to keep hunting legal. Even though I don’t hunt. But I would like to see a campaigned launched to try to squelch sport hunters from doing it just for something to do. At the very least sell them cameras that look and feel like rifles.
In fact, I have a “rifle camera” that I built myself. If I can find the time I’ll try to post a picture of it. It’s not a rifle, it’s just a camera, but it looks and feels like a rifle. You snap the picture by pulling the trigger. Complete with shoulder stock and everything. It feels like a rifle to hold and aim. 
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Edited by
creativesoul
on
Sat 04/26/08 12:40 PM
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What about the meditation aspect of it?
Now, I am a fisherman not a hunter, however I find tremendous peacefulness just being near water. As a result of fishing for gamefish using artificial lures, there are times when hours will pass without a catch. That is quite alright with me though, because the continual well placed casting and methodical retrieve variances instill a meditative quality to the experience... Of course, I am not your average 'Joe' either... and that is quite alright as well... 
Anyway... Fishing for medicinal purposes, yeah! That could catch on!
EDIT: James... I sure would like ta see ya fish with a rock!!!
Rock fishin' fer rock bass... you could start yer own TV show... like Roland Martin and Bill Dance!!! Your place sounds like my aunt's in Tennessee... the back yard in down in a gulley sorta and the garden is also down there... deer are everywhere down there at dusk and dawn... Now, if you can throw a rock and catch a prize... then you could join the ego club!!!
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If you look at the physical echo system that we live in as a whole it is an eat or be eaten system of replenishment of energy. (Higher systems do not require that kind of energy gathering.)
Although I personally would hate to have to hunt down prey and kill it to survive, if I had a family to feed and that was the only way to feed them, I would do it. If you are eating the flesh of another creature, it is a good and loving idea to give thanks to the actual creature for providing its flesh to you that you might live. It has given its life to and for you. The first time I did this when I was eating a lobster. (It was so delicious, and I do appreciated it for its life and for its death that I might eat it and live.) As I gave thanks to the creature, I felt a connection to the universe and I saw how all other creatures eat one another and how the energy is recycled back into the system and they are born again as new animals. It was a feeling of great love. A few weeks later I had a dream of a past life in which I was sentenced by the court to die either by being stoned by a mob or by being eaten by hungry lions. I chose to be eaten by hungry lions. The next thing I knew it I was walking through the grass in a pit where the lions were kept. They were following me and getting closer. A large male lion made the first leap upon me and I fell down and my soul or consciousness separated from my body as the group of lions gathered around my body. There was great emotion in that moment and it was a feeling of love and gratitude that came from the hungry lions and from me as I offered up my body to them so they could live. The dream was very uplifting for me in regard to the eating of the flesh of animals. I always try to remember to feel gratitude and love and to thank the animal for his sacrifice. JB |
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Uhhhh.... they make medicine fer that!
Just kiddin JB.... just kiddin ya!!!
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Now if the creature said "You are welcome!" I would get a little scared...
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Edited by
creativesoul
on
Sat 04/26/08 01:25 PM
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I must be feeling insecurity somewhere in my life...
I have been having too much fun pickin' with people and making jokes... Pay me no mind... I will get back to the linear minded emotionless person soon enough... 
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While living in the front of my grandmothers old store building, I discovered there were lots of creatures living there too. Spiders, and bugs of all kinds.
But they never seemed to bother me much. One day my sister was there and she saw a spider run across the carpet and she chased after it to kill it. I yelled "NO don't do that!" She asked me why not. I said, "This building has a very delicate echo system of beetles, bugs and spiders and there is no telling how you might upset the entire system by killing that one spider. JB |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 04/26/08 01:34 PM
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Now if the creature said "You are welcome!" I would get a little scared... He did, but on another level. In the dream, I felt the love and gratitude from the lions, and I said "Your welcome" to them. It was not a conscious type of love and communication. It felt like a universal divine love. JB |
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I must be feeling insecurity somewhere in my life...
I have been having too much fun pickin' with people and making jokes... Pay me no mind... I will get back to the linear minded emotionless person soon enough...
I totally understand the state of mind. I am often in it myself.
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Jeanniebean,
You are such an awesome lady. CS I like you this way. 
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