See this is where I get torn.... I teach my child respect of authority, while constantly questioning it.... I want her to be proud to be American.... and if she choses to worship in a different way.. I'm Pagan, her father is Buddhist and her grandparents are Catholic... I will respect any decision she makes as long as it is an informed one. I think the pledge of alligence is very important..... So again I am very torn on this subject...

as parents...it is our duty to stand up for our children. I can't imagine any or most ISDs want the bad press, scandal or law suits from forcing a child to do something against beliefs. which is why my son's schools don't say the pledge...better to be safe than sorry I guess. but just like sex ed...if a parent doesn't agree...then stand up.

In fact, when my son was in grade school...the school sent a letter to the parents about holiday traditions. and they asked if there was any traditions other than what they had listed that the parents would like to share. during that time...my son learned alot about other cultures and celebrations and even came home saying he is Jewish and one time said he was Chinese. I had no problem with him learning about others. that's how people learn. But if there was something offensive to what I try to instill in him...I certainly won't sit back and stay quiet about it

Then let the chilren learn from their parents, from those in authority they come to respect not those they are forced believe.

Let the children develop pride based on what they see and hear and experience not on what others force them to do.

Let the children LEARN facts, let them LEARN how this country works. Let the Schools TEACH not TRAIN.

Let a curious child ask an adult, why do you stand and say these words? What do they mean? Instead of drilling them into their memory.

Let the children wonder, and question as they learn and not learn only to obey, but what it means to be respected, give respect, to trust and be trusted, when to give, how to recieve and how much to withhold.

Give them the tools to think, never shame a child for being different and never praise the differnce in a child above the differences in others, especially when the differences reflect a belief they have not had time to wonder about, to question, to LEARN, to respect.

A child is a person who must be given a certain amount of control in their lives or that child will never LEARN to respect and trust their individuality. How can we expect respect and trust to be reflected from inside unless it exists there?

So teach a child the pledge when they are of an age to understand its words, its history and complex concepts that are wrapped up in the sentiments.

BUT DO NOT force the words into memory with no meaning? This is not a lesson like tieing a shoe or brushing your teeth, this is not a thoughtless pattern meant to illicit emotional ties without thought or regard.

The world is a great big place, the choices are many and to limit a child by forcing memory patterns before the age of reason is training at best and brainwashing at its worst.

Let those who want to brainwash force their Sunday Schools and their worships before the age of reason, but keep it OUT of the PUBLIC schools because any LESSON worthy of being TAUGHT is a lesson that can wait until the age of reason.

The pledge should not be said at all in Schools. If it is said, it should be said at political events and without the God in it simply because the concept "God" has not been understood or defined by the entire group.

For proper separation of Church and State the word "God" should be taken out of the Pledge. Even so, I don't think it should be said in schools.

To connect this subject with floods and fires and other natural disasters is illogical. Is that fear talking? Do you think that God is watching and do you think if we take the name "God" out of our pledge that God will get angry and cause more havoc and destruction upon us? What kind of nasty vengeful picture of God is that?

That's just silly.

JB

No I don't think God will be angry at that one thing....I think he will have his wrath for the accumulation of it all as a whole. The point of this thread, as I was the one that did it was taking God out of everything. Not just the flag salute but everything......That yes I do look at this as the fall of this country. When Jesus comes back he will be the all encompasing power on earth. Their will be no government as we know it.

Revelation 21

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

And no Jennie bean in general I would say that God is a loving God, But even he can only take so much before he says enough is enough. When he flooded the earth the first time.....It was because of outlandishly disobeying him.....And as much as he loves he also will not tolerate that. Now of course as it says in revelation you or anyone for that matter can not believe any of it....your choice.....your freewill......As for me....I do....and I am not scared of it, I just know in my heart and soul it is for me...and I live the best I can as He My Lord And Savior wants me to......Do I fail, all the time....But as much as He is a Loving God, he is also a forgiving God.....And if your ask from your heart for forgiveness so it shall be. And as I have said before this doesn't mean that you can live a life of sin and then in the end of days ask for forgiveness. It just doesn't work like that.

feral...I DO see you point and in my world that would be great but this is America where there are alot of beliefs/opinions. That is why I don't think it should be forced but it shouldn't take away from those that want it either. not sure there is a perfect answer. all I can suggest..unless it is banned...until then either don't say it, change the diety or omit that part.

Until it is in law or anything, it will be said in places and the wording won't change....not sure what to say

I totally agree......I am almost 50 years old and I have never know the pledge to not have God in it....It is my choice to say it.....and when I do it is loud and clear...but I also am fine with people not or not even saying it at all if they choose. I put the information out....what people do with it....is again their choice to do with it whatever they wish......

like I stated before...my son hasn't had to say the pledge since the 1st grade and he's a jr in HS now. the ISD did this to prevent any bad press, scandal, law suit whatever. but I still think it's the parents responsibilty to stand up for the kids. and the school also wanted any traditions or holidays or cultures to be brought in...although it confused my son in thinking he was Jewish (nothing wrong with it except the funny reasons he gave as a 1st grader) and that he was Chinese when a mother explained the Chinese New Year and the zodiacs of them. because of that he thought he was chinese lol. i did explain the different things taught with him and never pushed my views on him. he has always been able to decide on his own.

So what you are saying here is that your God does not practice unconditional love. Interesting.




So what your are saying here is that your God is intolerant and unforgiving. Okay.




So you are saying that "Free Will" is simply a choice whether to believe the teachings of the religion or the Bible or not.

You are saying that "Free Will" has nothing to do with being free or having the power to direct your own life as you so choose. It is only a choice to obey your God or not, or believe the Bible or not. (There is not much choice there.)





You say that God loves but he will "not tolerate" disobedience.

Then in the same paragraph you say that he is a forgiving God.
If you ask for forgiveness.

One minute you say that you can "ask for forgiveness and be forgiven" and then you say that you "can't live a life of sin and ask for forgiveness in the end... it doesn't work like that."

I don't think you really have a clue how it works. A "loving" but "wrathful" god who commits genocide because people "disobey him" is an imperfect being, ~if that is the truth of it.

This being may even exist, but I don't see him as the highest god of all that is, and he certainly is not perfect. He sounds like a bully to me. (Obey me or else.) Reminds me of my X-husband.

I cannot follow this Kind of God because I don't even like him as a person. ... if he were a person.

JB

Actually I do and again I apologize it was really stupid on my part Hope you have a great evening!

And no Jennie bean in general I would say that God is a loving God, But even he can only take so much before he says enough is enough.

So what you are saying here is that your God does not practice ANSWER: God is love.....people who keep wanting it their way......like when people wanted to worship cows....this is a slap in God's face...a big no no.....For God there is only one way and that is HIS and for all that want it their way....ok but just know you will be held accountable....you should of read my previous post.

When he flooded the earth the first time.....It was because of outlandishly disobeying him.....And as much as he loves he also will not tolerate that.

So what your are saying here is that your God is intolerant and unforgiving. Okay.

ANSWER: If people keep disobeying God's wrath will surely be upon them. Why is this such a surprise to you Jeanniebean.....

So you are saying that "Free Will" is simply a choice whether to believe the teachings of the religion or the Bible or not.

ANSWER: What separates us from all other species is the Freewill that God gave us. It's not a matter of just believing the teaching of the Bible, but more important to live the teachings everyday.


You are saying that "Free Will" has nothing to do with being free or having the power to direct your own life as you so choose. It is only a choice to obey your God or not, or believe the Bible or not. (There is not much choice there.)

ANSWER: Freewill is your choice to choose.....God wants you to come to him of that freewill, he would never want some to come to him for any other reason then they believe in him and have the faith that he IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE. Again not just a matter of believing but living through faith.

As for me....I do....and I am not scared of it, I just know in my heart and soul it is for me...and I live the best I can as He My Lord And Savior wants me to......Do I fail, all the time....But as much as He is a Loving God, he is also a forgiving God.....And if your ask from your heart for forgiveness so it shall be. And as I have said before this doesn't mean that you can live a life of sin and then in the end of days ask for forgiveness. It just doesn't work like that.

You say that God loves but he will "not tolerate" disobedience.

Then in the same paragraph you say that he is a forgiving God.
If you ask for forgiveness.

ANSWER: You see through faith Jeannie I don't disobey....but again that pesky freewill comes into play and even as obedient as I am....I still sin......I ask for forgiveness from the heart and through the faith in the Lord God that he hears my prayers of forgiveness.


One minute you say that you can "ask for forgiveness and be forgiven" and then you say that you "can't live a life of sin and ask for forgiveness in the end... it doesn't work like that."

ANSWER: You can ask for forgiveness......let me give you an example......You can't go out every night and get drunk and sleep with every man and then on Sunday ask for forgiveness...I can be driving down the street and someone does something studid and I curse and yell at him.....and as soon as I do it, I say, "Oh Lord forgive me for my sharp tongue," I am sorry.

I don't think you really have a clue how it works. A "loving" but "wrathful" god who commits genocide because people "disobey him" is an imperfect being, ~if that is the truth of it.

This being may even exist, but I don't see him as the highest god of all that is, and he certainly is not perfect. He sounds like a bully to me. (Obey me or else.) Reminds me of my X-husband.

ANSWER: For you that is the truth and so be it. But understand also that time after time after time after time God gives chances.......I can get you scripture after scripture that shows this........But the people just keep on doing it how they see fit.......Otherwise what purpsoe would God truly serve.....He has to reign in his people and show them the ways of their errors.....

I cannot follow this Kind of God because I don't even like him as a person. ... if he were a person.

JB

ANSWER: God is not a person....God is God.


Examples:

2 Chronicles 36:16
But they mocked God's messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the LORD was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.


Jeremiah 25:15
[ The Cup of God's Wrath ] This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.

Daniel 11:36
[ The King Who Exalts Himself ] "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

Amos 2:4
This is what the LORD says: "For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}. Because they have rejected the law of the LORD and have not kept his decrees, because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed,

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Romans 1:18
[ God's Wrath Against Mankind ] The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

10. Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Romans 13:4
For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Revelation 14:10
he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. satan

Revelation 15:1
Seven Angels with Seven Plagues I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

18. Revelation 16:1
The Seven Bowls of God's Wrath ] Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

religious freedom for all!!! remove that 3 letter word

I am not surprised at all that you believe this because this is what you have been taught, and this is what you believe. That's okay with me. The God you describe just sounds like an angry person to me, not someone I would like if he were a person.



If God is Love (like it says in the Bible,) then I have already “come to God.” That is a very simple concept for me. ~~ Religion wants to make everything so complicated and ritualistic. It was written for primitive people who were not quite conscious at the time. It was written for the simple mind to understand.




“Pesky” free will? Excuse me?

I have seen the look of irritation on many a minister’s face when I mention “Free Will.” They really don’t like that idea because they want people to be “obedient” and not to question their authority about their rules.

They really don’t want people to decide for themselves what is right and wrong. They want to be able to have control over that and tell you what they think is right or wrong. They have no faith in the people themselves to be able to know what is right and what is wrong on their own. They continue to treat people as ignorant disobedient children who need to be punished.

People really need to grow up.



Yes, my husband gave me many "chances" to kiss his feet and follow his rules too, under the threat of his punishment but he was just being a terrorist and bully. ~~ I know that your God is not my husband,~~ but he is using the same kind of tactics.

I believe that people are here (on earth) to learn by their own mistakes. That is what the law of Karma (cause and effect) is all about. What goes around comes around as they say. If there is a "wrath of God" it is the Law of Karma. It is on automatic. It happens automatically. You learn from your mistakes.




And you tell me that your god is "perfect" and then you give him human traits and emotions such as anger and wrath.

He drowns the population of the earth like rats because they "disobeyed him." If that is really true ~~~(which I doubt) ~~~

God then, is a not a nice person, ~ God or not. Sorry, you may call him a God, ~but if he were a person, I would not like him as a person. That is all I am saying. So if you want to insist that he is a god, then I don't like him as a god.

Now I am going to say goodbye for a while because I am spending way too much time on this club and not getting any work done. This will be my last lengthy post and I am going to limit my time on this club to a maximum of half an hour a day…. Or less.

Nice chatting with you all.

Keep up the good work Kitty cat!!

Jeanniebean

the reason I don't feel it right to force "under God" on anyone is because the Bible tell christians not to force their beliefs. I don't like it when beliefs are shoved down my throat when I may not want to hear or have my beliefs ripped apart...i don't think it's right to do that to others

Matthew 10:14 (NIV)
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

First off their is something you need to understand there is a big difference from being taught a religion as a child and being shown of who, what, God is through dreams, experiences and things that God has shown me. I am not who I am because I was brought up this way.......Through miracles that God has shown me, I could no longer deny his existance. God could nver be a "person" he is so much much more complex then that.

Also take "religion out of the equation.......I don't care about what religion people are....even myself....I believe that God is the creator of all, Jesus Christ is his son and the Savior of mankind, and the Bible the inspired word of God.....

Well freewill is there.....so I am not sure why any minister would give that look......I know with different religions they believe different things.....Not for me to know. And honestly if any pastor or minister is not giving someone their total freedom to come to their own conclusions when given all the information are not very good at what they do in my opinion.

As I could never put into words the experiences I have had. And the few times I have I get ridiculed as people think that who I am I to think I am that special. I know even today that God gives people gifts, whether it be dreams, visions, laying and healing the sick, to be prayer warriors, to go and spread the news of Him etc. I am not nor will I ever be ashamed of what the Lord God has done in my life.....nor will I ever deny him in doing as he asks of me.

It's not a matter of not being able to make decisions.....I make them every day of my life. No one is in "control" of my life. I think your confusing control with willingly giving your life to Christ......I chose to give my life to Christ....and since I have in the last 13 years....my life is so wonderful and I give all the Glory to him...Because I know what I was before I did and what my life is now. And I have never in 13 years ever felt like an ignorant disobedient child......

You can't compare a stupid controlling husband to GOD Jeanniebean......And for you it seems like God is doing all you said.....but that is because you just don't know God, because if you did and someone said what your saying to me....It would make you cry as it is me. God loves me, he loves you.....and yes like a Father he has rules, but they are ones that when you love him....YOU WANT TO FOLLOW, because it just feels good to do so. I Love God more then anyone in my life...including my family....that may sound harsh.....or mean....But it just is......I Love him for what he has shown ME.....I love him for all the blessing he bestows on my life. I love Him for all the gifts he has given me and loved me so much and trusted me to have. I cry sometimes when I read what people write....How can YOU ALL be so cruel when you don't know.....You really DONT know what it is to have the Father God's Love.

I will tell you a little about what goes around comes around....I believe that but a little different. The site the Lord had me on prior to jsh accused me of having 15 accounts and being a man, and many many other things. I had never been so hurt in my whole life. I was pissed I was angry and I wanted revenge. But I sat for a few days and just prayed about it.....balled and prayed some more..So I wrote admin and I wrote the mods....and I told them that it is now given to God.....And honestly Jeanniebean the site went downhill from that day forth. Do I believe that what I told them had anything to do with it....You bet your sweet bippy I do. Now I could of written all that betrayed and were cruel to me...but I didn't need to because God took care of me. And with anything in my life....even though I handle it...I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Good Lord is always right there....and if I need him.....BAM he is there. So in a sense......they did get the full wrath of God.....

God is perfect in every way.......and his wrath is that of a Father, who is always looking after his children. For so long he warned the people through many many people, but they did not listen....Only Noah and his family remained faithful.....and their is scientific proof that the flood did happen. I wrote a very long extensive serious on here regarding that. This is what I find so interesting also Jeannie....With anything that someone can come at me with regarding, God, Jesus or the bible there is always always scripture and history to back me up.

It's like when Moses kept telling Pharaoh to let God's people go.......Every time God gave him a chance and Pharaoh did not listen...plague after plague was brought down on him. And still Pharaoh would not listen.....he would rather pray to his Gods and Goddesses......and not until God brought down the death of his first born and all the first born of Egypt did he listen. Now who's fault was it. God who kept telling him to listen....or Pharaoh's for not.....I would say Pharaoh's for not listening. I think that if you turn the nile river red with blood.....and bring the plague of frogs, and the plague of hail....would of been enough....but where did Pharaoh's stubborness get him.....hmmmmmm

Ok and goodbye sweets.......and sorry that you didn't get your work done.........me neither.....but oh well.......there is always tomorrow....

I heart ya lil lady........and no matter if we don't agree I will always love and have respect for the jeanniebean.

Shamless plug for Matchmaking Game #56 because I am bold like that.....

http://www.justsayhi.com/topic/show/101406

Well let's see... mmmm

My husband:

He loved me and protected me, and I know he would have died for me if it came down to a fight.

He wanted me to worship him and admire him and obey him and agree with him. If I did not there was "Hell" to pay.

These were his tactics. Like it or not, the tactics you describe for your God of love and wrath are identical.

I decided then, that I did not like being under the thumb of these kinds of tactics from a human being, so why would I like being under these kinds of tactics from a non-human being?

I just find it disagreeable. Even if your God could/can punish me with death for my disobedience, non-compliance or dis-belief, these forced tactics all interfere with my innate freedom to direct my own life.

I will trust in the universal laws of cause and effect while I live in this holographic reality before I will trust in an angry judgmental deity ~~if such a deity even exists.

Give me liberty or give me death.

Have you ever watched Star Trec Next Generation? The pseudo alien gods who demanded them to "Bow to your God or else you die!"

They are told: "Then I die free."

Yes I can compare the two. How can I not?

JB

With one small exception.......Your husband is not God...he is just a human beings with his faults......God has no faults. And as much as I emplore you to believe as you wish......You don't know God....Because even as you say how can he bring such wrath on the human race...How can he be so mean.....He isn't......Its us as humans that bring it on ourselves.

And if you find it disagreeable then ok by me.....But you have to understand that from my perspective you can't speak of what you don't know. You can't look at just one side and determine that God is wrong....and until or if you really truly knew God none of what you say would be able to come from your lips...and never out of fear of God...but because of the love that you have for Him.

You don't know God either. If God gets angry and kills people for disobeying him, as you claim, then Yes he does HAVE FAULTS.

How can that not be a fault? Because he claims to be God???

I don't believe that the entity you are speaking of is God. I don't believe God has that kind of rotten angry threatening personality. If he is a god, he should know better, and because he is a god does not give him the right to be such a bully.

I don't see how hard that is for you to understand.

One minute you say that "us humans" bring it on ourselves and then another minute you say that God caused a flood with the intent of killing millions of people. Did he really? I don't believe that, but if he did, then I am sorry, I do not think that is right. I think that is cold blooded murder.

Some people claim that their god gave us life and that he has the right to take it away. Well, if that god were all powerful he could just remove the life from the people, he could just stop their hearts from beating, he would not have to cause floods or order armies to do the killing for him. Is this not true?

This story does not make any logical sense to me. I am sorry. It never will.

JB