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Chapter IX

Ancient Non-Christian Sources Continuing our historical investigation into the early sources for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, we turn next to the ancient non Christian sources. We will move, successively, from ancient historians, to government officials, to other Jewish and Gentile sources, to early gnostic sources and then to lost works that speak of Jesus.


Ancient Historian Tacitus. Cornelius Tacitus (ca. 55 120 A.D.)

was a Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over a half dozen Roman emperors. He has been called the “greatest historian” of ancient Rome, an individual generally acknowledged among scholars for his moral “integrity and essential goodness.”(1)Tacitus is best known for two works — the Annals and the Histories. The former is thought to have included eighteen books and the latter to have included twelve, for a total of thirty.(2) The Annals cover the period from Augustus’ death in 14 A.D. to that of Nero in 68 A.D., while the Histories begin after Nero’s death and proceed to that of Domitian in 96 A.D.Tacitus recorded at least one reference to Christ and two to early Christianity, one in each of his major works. The most important one is that found in the Annals, written about 115 A.D. The following was recounted concerning the great fire in Rome during the reign of Nero: 
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man’s cruelty, that they were being destroyed.(3)From this report we can learn several facts, both explicit and implicit, concerning Christ and the Christians who lived in Rome in the 60s A.D. Chronologically, we may ascertain the following information.(1) Christians were named for their founder, Christus (from the Latin), (2) who was put to death by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilatus (also Latin), (3) during the reign of emperor Tiberius (14 37 A.D.). (4) His death ended the “superstition” for a short time, (5) but it broke out again, (6) especially in Judaea, where the teaching had its origin.(7) His followers carried his doctrine to Rome. (8) When the great fire destroyed a large part of the city during the reign of Nero (54 68 A.D.), the emperor placed the blame on the Christians who lived in Rome. (9) Tacitus reports that this group was hated for their abominations. (10) These Christians were arrested after pleading guilty, (11) and many were convicted for “hatred for mankind.” (12) They were mocked and (13) then tortured, including being “nailed to crosses” or burnt to death. (14) Because of these actions, the people had compassion on the Christians. (15) Tacitus therefore concluded that such punishments were not for the public good but were simply “to glut one man’s cruelty.”(4)Several facts here are of interest. As F. F. Bruce has noted, Tacitus had to receive his information from some source and this may have been an official record. It may even have been contained in one of Pilate’s reports to the emperor, to which Tacitus would probably have had access because of his standing with the government.(5) Of course, we cannot be sure at this point, but a couple of early writers do claim to know the contents of such a report, as we will perceive later.Also of interest is the historical context for Jesus’ death, as he is linked with both Pilate and Tiberius. Additionally, J. N. D. Anderson sees implications in Tacitus’ quote concerning Jesus’ resurrection. 
It is scarcely fanciful to suggest that when he adds that “A most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out” he is bearing indirect and unconscious testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had rise from the grave.(6)Although we must be careful not to press this implication too far, the possibility remains that Tacitus may have indirectly referred to the Christians’ belief in Jesus’ resurrection, since his teachings “again broke out” after his death.Also interesting is the mode of torture employed against the early Christians. Besides burning, a number were crucified by being “nailed to crosses.” Not only is this the method used with Jesus, but tradition reports that Nero was responsible for crucifying Peter as well, but upside down. The compassion aroused in the Roman people is also noteworthy.The second reference to Jesus in the writings of Tacitus is found in the Histories. While the specific reference is lost, as is most of this book, the reference is preserved by Sulpicus Severus.(7) He informs us that Tacitus wrote of the burning of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans in 70 A.D., an event which destroyed the city. The Christians are mentioned as a group that were connected with these events. All we can gather from this reference is that Tacitus was also aware of the existence of Christians other than in the context of their presence in Rome. Granted, the facts that Tacitus (and most other extra biblical sources) report about Jesus are well known in our present culture. Yet we find significance in the surprising confirmation for the life of Jesus.Suetonius. Another Roman historian who also makes one reference to Jesus and one to Christians is Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas. Little is known about him except that he was the chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (117 138 A.D.) and that he had access to the imperial records.(8) The first reference occurs in the section on emperor Claudius (41 54 A.D.). Writing about the same time as Tacitus,


(9) Suetonius remarked concerning Claudius:
 
Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the city.(10)The translator notes that “Chrestus” is a variant spelling of “Christ,” as noted by other commentators as well,(11) and is virtually the same as Tacitus’ Latin spelling.Suetonius refers to a wave of riots which broke out in a large Jewish community in Rome during the year of 49 A.D. As a result, the Jews were banished from the city. Incidentally, this statement has an interesting corroboration in Acts 18:2, which relates that Paul met a Jewish couple from Pontus named Aquila and his wife Priscilla, who had recently left Italy because Claudius had demanded that all Jews leave Rome.The second reference from Suetonius is again to the Christians who were tortured by emperor Nero: 

After the great fire at Rome . . . . Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief.(12)Few facts are derived from the two references by Suetonius. The first relates (1) to the expulsion of Jews from Rome, but also makes the claim (2) that it was Christ who caused the Jews to make the uproar in Rome, apparently by his teachings. The second reference is quite similar to the longer statement by Tacitus, (3) including the use of the word “mischievous” to describe the group’s beliefs and (4) the term “Christians” to identify this group as followers of the teachings of Christ.


Josephus. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus

was born in 37 or 38 A.D. and died in 97 A.D. He was born into a priestly family and became a Pharisee at the age of nineteen. After surviving a battle against the Romans, he served commander Vespasian in Jerusalem. After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., he moved to Rome, where he became the court historian for emperor Vespasian.(13)The Antiquities, one of Josephus’ major works, provides some valuable but disputed evidence concerning Jesus. Written around 90 95 A.D., it is earlier than the testimonies of the Roman historians. Josephus speaks about many persons and events of first century Palestine and makes two references to Jesus. The first is very brief and is in the context of a reference to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”(14) Here we find a close connection between Jesus and James and the belief on the part of some that Jesus was the Messiah.The second reference is easily the most important and the most debated, since some of the words appear to be due to Christian interpolation. For instance, a portion of the quotation reports: 
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats. . . . He was (the) Christ . . . he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.(15)Since Josephus was a Jew, it is unlikely that he would have written about Jesus in this way. Origen informs us that Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah,(16) yet Eusebius quotes the debated passage including the words above.(17) Therefore, probably the majority of commentators believe that at least a portion of the citation (the distinctly "Christian" words, in particular) is a Christian interpolation. Yet, other scholars have also supported the original ending.(18) A mediating position taken by many holds that the passage itself is written by Josephus with the questionable words either deleted or modified. So the major question here concerns the actual words of Josephus.There are good indications that the majority of the text is genuine. There is no textual evidence against it, and, conversely, there is very good manuscript evidence for this statement about Jesus, thus making it difficult to ignore. Additionally, leading scholars on the works of Josephus have testified that this portion is written in the style of this Jewish historian.(19) Thus we conclude that there are good reasons for accepting this version of Josephus’ statement about Jesus, with modification of the questionable words. In fact, it is possible that these modifications can even be accurately ascertained.In 1972 Professor Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem released the results of a study on an Arabic manuscript containing Josephus’ statement about Jesus. It includes a different and briefer rendering of the entire passage, including changes in the key words listed above: 
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.(20)Of the three disputed portions, none remains unchanged. The initial problematic statement “if it be lawful to call him a man” has been dropped completely, recounting only that Jesus was a wise man. The words “he was a doer of wonderful works” have also been deleted. Instead of the words “He was (the) Christ” we find “he was perhaps the messiah.” The phrase :he appeared to them the third day” now reads “they (the disciples) reported that he had appeared to them,” which is an entirely true statement which was voiced by the first century eyewitnesses. Lastly, the statement that “the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him” has been drastically reduced to “concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders,” which concerns the messiah and possibly not even Jesus, according to Josephus. Therefore, while some words are completely deleted, others are qualified by “perhaps” and “reported.”There are some good reasons why the Arabic version may indeed be the original words of Josephus before any Christian interpolations. As Schlomo Pines and David Flusser, of the Hebrew University, have stated, it is quite plausible that none of the arguments against Josephus writing the original words even applies to the Arabic text, especially since the latter would have had less chance of being censored by the church. In addition, Flusser notes that an earmark of authenticity comes from the fact that the Arabic version omits the accusation that the Jews were to blame for Jesus’ death, which is included in the original reading.(21)After an investigation of the question, Charlesworth explains his view that Josephus' original version is "both an interpolation and a redaction."(22) But he provides three reasons why Josephus still wrote most of the passage: some of the words are very difficult to assign to a Christian writer, the passage fits both grammatically and historically, and the brief reference to Jesus in Antiquities 20 seems to presuppose an earlier mention.(23)Charlesworth concludes that the Arabic rescension is basically accurate, even if there are still a few subtle Christian alterations. He concludes about this passage with some strong words: "We can now be as certain as historical research will presently allow that Josephus did refer to Jesus," providing "corroboration of the gospel account."
(24)We conclude that Josephus did write about Jesus, not only in the brief statement concerning James, but also in this longer account. The evidence points to his composition of this latter passage with the deletion and modification of a number of key phrases which were probably interpolated by Christian sources.What historical facts can be ascertained from the deleted and altered portions of Josephus’ statement such as those changes made in the Arabic version?

(1) Jesus was known as a wise and virtuous man, one recognized for his good conduct. (2) He had many disciples, both Jews and Gentiles. (3) Pilate condemned him to die, (4) with crucifixion explicitly being mentioned as the mode. (5) The disciples reported that Jesus had risen from the dead and (6) that he had appeared to them on the third day after his crucifixion. (7) Consequently, the disciples continued to proclaim his teachings. (8) Perhaps Jesus was the Messiah concerning whom the Old Testament prophets spoke and predicted wonders. We would add here two facts from Josephus’ earlier quotation as well. (9) Jesus was the brother of James and (10) was called the messiah by some.(25)There is nothing really sensational in such a list of facts from a Jewish historian. Jesus’ ethical conduct, his following, and his crucifixion by the command of Pilate are what we would expect a historian to mention. Even the account of the disciples reporting Jesus’ resurrection appearances (if it is allowed), has an especially authentic ring to it. Josephus, like many historians today, would simply be repeating the claims, which were probably fairly well known in first century Palestine. That the disciples would then spread his teachings would be a natural consequence.Josephus presented an important account of several major facts about Jesus and the origins of Christianity. In spite of some question as to the exact wording, we can view his statements as providing probable attestation, in particular, of some items in Jesus' public ministry, his death by crucifixion, the disciples’ report of his resurrection appearances, and their subsequent teaching of Jesus’ message.

Thallus. At least the death of Jesus was mentioned in an ancient history composed many years before Tacitus, Suetonius or Josephus ever wrote and probably even prior to the Gospels.


Circa 52 A.D. Thallus

wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time.(26) This work itself has been lost and only fragments of it exist in the citations of others. One such scholar who knew and spoke of it was Julius Africanus, who wrote about 221 A.D. It is debated whether Thallus was the same person referred to by Josephus as a wealthy Samaritan, who was made a freedman by Emperor Tiberius and who loaned money to Herod Agrippa I.(27)In speaking of Jesus’ crucifixion and the darkness that covered the land during this event, Africanus found a reference in the writings of Thallus that dealt with this cosmic report. Africanus asserts: 

On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.(28)Julius Africanus objected to Thallus’ rationalization concerning the darkness that fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion because an eclipse could not take place during the time of the full moon, as was the case during the Jewish Passover season.(29) But Wells raises a fair question about this testimony. Africanus only implies that Thallus linked the darkness to Jesus' crucifixion, but we are not specifically told if Jesus is mentioned in Thallus' original history at all.(30)If this brief statement by Thallus refers to Jesus' crucifixion we can ascertain that (1) the Christian gospel, or at least an account of the crucifixion, was known in the Mediterranean region by the middle of the first century A.D.


This brings to mind the presence of Christian teachings in Rome mentioned by Tacitus and by Suetonius. (2) There was a widespread darkness in the land, implied to have taken place during Jesus' crucifixion. (3) Unbelievers offered rationalistic explanations for certain Christian teachings or for supernatural claims not long after their initial proclamation, a point to which we will return below.


Government Official Pliny the Younger.

A Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger was the nephew and adopted son of a natural historian known as Pliny the Elder. The younger Pliny is best known for his letters, and Bruce refers to him as “one of the world’s great letter writers, whose letters . . . have attained the status of literary classics.”(31)Ten books of Pliny’s correspondence are extant today. The tenth book, written around 112 A.D., speaks about Christianity in the province of Bithynia and also provides some facts about Jesus.

(32) Pliny found that the Christian influence was so strong that the pagan temples had been nearly deserted, pagan festivals severely decreased and the sacrificial animals had few buyers. Because of the inflexibility of the Christians and the emperor’s prohibition against political association, governor Pliny took action against the Christians. Yet, because he was unsure how to deal with believers, if there should be any distinctions in treatment or if repentance made any difference, he wrote to Emperor Trajan to explain his approach.Pliny dealt personally with the Christians who were turned over to him. He interrogated them, inquiring if they were believers. If they answered in the affirmative he asked them two more times, under the threat of death. If they continued firm in their belief, he ordered them to be executed. Sometimes the punishment included torture to obtain desired information, as in the case of two female slaves who were deaconesses in the church. If the person was a Roman citizen, they were sent to the emperor in Rome for trial. If they denied being Christians or had disavowed their faith in the past, they “repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration . . . to your [Trajan’s] image.” Afterwards they “finally cursed Christ.” Pliny explained that his purpose in all this was that “multitudes may be reclaimed from error.”(33)Since Pliny’s letter is rather lengthy, we will quote the portion which pertains directly to an account of early Christian worship of Christ:
 
They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food — but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.(34)At this point Pliny adds that Christianity attracted persons of all societal ranks, all ages, both sexes and from both the city and the country.From Pliny’s letter we find several more facts about Jesus and early Christianity. (1) Christ was worshiped as deity by early believers. (2) Pliny refers late in his letter to the teachings of Jesus and his followers as “excessive superstition” and “contagious superstition,” which is reminiscent of the words of both Tacitus and Suetonius. (3) Jesus’ ethical teachings are reflected in the oath taken by Christians never to be guilty of a number of sins mentioned in the letter. (4) We find a probable reference to Christ’s institution of communion and the Christian celebration of the “love feast” in Pliny’s remark about their regathering to partake of ordinary food. The reference here alludes to the accusation on the part of non Christians that believers were suspected of ritual murder and drinking of blood during these meetings, again confirming our view that communion is the subject to which Pliny is referring. (5) There is also a possible reference to Sunday worship in Pliny’s statement that Christians met “on a certain day.”Concerning early Christianity, (6) we see Pliny’s method of dealing with believers, from their identification, to their interrogation, to their execution. For those who denied being Christians, worship of the gods and the emperor gained them their freedom. (7) Interestingly, Pliny reports that true believers could not be forced to worship the gods or the emperor. (8) Christian worship involved a pre dawn service, (9) which included singing hymns. The early time probably facilitated a normal working day. (10) These Christians apparently formed a typical cross section of society in Bithynia, since they were of all classes, ages, localities and of both sexes. (11) There were recognized positions in the church, as illustrated by the mention of the two female deaconesses who were tortured for information. While Pliny does not relate many facts about Jesus, he does provide a look at a very early example of Christian worship. Believers were meeting regularly and worshiping Jesus.Emperor Trajan. Pliny’s inquiry received a reply which is published along with his letters, although Emperor Trajan’s response is much shorter: 

The method you have pursued, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those denounced to you as Christians is extremely proper. It is not possible to lay down any general rule which can be applied as the fixed standard in all cases of this nature. No search should be made fore these people; when they are denounced and found guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the party denies himself to be a Christian, and shall give proof that he is not (that is, by adoring our Gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion. Informations without the accuser’s name subscribed must not be admitted in evidence against anyone, as it is introducing a very dangerous precedent, and by no means agreeable to the spirit of the age.


(35)Trajan responds that Pliny was generally correct in his actions. If confessed Christians persist in their faith, they must be punished. However, three restrictions are placed on Pliny. (1) Christians should not be sought out or tracked down. (2) Repentance coupled with worship of the gods sufficed to clear a person. Pliny expressed doubts as to whether a person should be punished in spite of repentance and only recounts the pardoning of persons who had willingly given up their beliefs prior to questioning. (3) Pliny was not to honor any lists of Christians which were given to him if the accuser did not name himself.These conditions imposed by emperor Trajan give us some insight into early official Roman views about Christianity. While persecution was certainly an issue and many Christians died without committing any actual crimes, it is interesting that, contrary to popular opinion, the first century was not the worst period of persecution for believers. Trajan’s restrictions on Pliny at least indicate that it was not a wholesale slaughter. Nonetheless, the persecution was real and many died for their faith.Emperor Trajan. The existence of trials for Christians, such as the ones held in the time of Pliny, is confirmed by another historical reference to Christians.


Serenius Granianus, proconsul of Asia, wrote to emperor Hadrian (117 138 A.D.), also in reference to the treatment of believers. Hadrian replied to Minucius Fundanus, the successor as Asian proconsul and issued a statement against those who would accuse Christians falsely or without due process. In the letter, preserved by third century church Historian Eusebius, Hadrian asserts: 
I do not wish, therefore, that the matter should be passed by without examination, so that these men may neither be harassed, nor opportunity of malicious proceedings be offered to informers. If, therefore, the provincials can clearly evince their charges against the Christians, so as to answer before the tribunal, let them pursue this course only, but not by mere petitions, and mere outcries against the Christians. For it is far more proper, if any one would bring an accusation, that you should examine it.


(36)Hadrian explains that, if Christians are found guilty, after an examination, they should be judged “according to the heinousness of the crime.” Yet, if the accusers were only slandering the believers, then those who inaccurately made the charges were to be punished.(37)From Hadrian’s letter we again ascertain (1) that Christians were frequently reported as lawbreakers in Asia and were punished in various ways. (2) Like Trajan, Hadrian also encouraged a certain amount of temperance, and ordered that Christians not be harassed. (3) If Christians were indeed guilty, as indicated by careful examination, punishments could well be in order. (4) However, no undocumented charges were to be brought against believers and those engaged in such were to be punished themselves.

in the history of the Hebrew people, came a time and place where their God met Moses in the form of a Bush on fire, but not consuming the Bush kind of fire.

here this entity presented itself as the Hebrew People's God and called Himself Elohim and "I AM."

when Yeshua arrived in the Hebrew People's history, some 3,000 years later, Yeshua/Jesus claims to have been the the Fire of the Bush not being Consumed and then informed Moses of Who He was.

so Yeshua is claiming to be the Old Testament God their ancestors knew.

and all Yeshua did from there was to say, no more following the LAW!!



and ironically, 10 Ancient Historians, all Atheist, wrote of these accounts like the Disciples did. They prove these events and the person claiming to be God factually took place. along with proving He was beaten, murdered, buried, arose from the Dead and presented Himself for several weeks before leaving this planet.

odd, atheist historians, writing about these accounts and claiming them to be factual based upon their word, since people's WORDS back then, meant something!!

like a handshake used to means just 30 years ago!!

now its documentation with notary :(
no one believes no one these days ... humanity has truly taken a serious dump as time passes by!!

no Tom,

not what i am saying to you.
i accept your views and do honor them.
but since i do know some of your views from what you have shared, i just wondered to myself on the topic of a God being concerned about humans, and who could be as far away as infinity and as close to being beside you since everything itself is connected to the entire whole and have an interest in each single persons life.

i presented the ancient historical accounts by factual historians of that day who claim Yeshua said He was God, was concerned for ALL humanity, was eventually done away with, charged with Treason, beaten, murdered, buried, and 2 Ancient Historians confirm He arose from the DEAD and presented Himself like the New Testament claims.

if these Historians are being truthful, accurate, honest (which none of them lived close to one another, some were Greek, Romans, Muslim, one Jew, and a few others from the Mesopotamia region of that day - SO NO COLLABORATION) then they on their account, not the Bible, prove the existence of such God that you think does not exist.



i am not trying to sway you, just informing you that some Ancient Historians might offer information even you could find interesting.

THIS POST AND LAST ARE 10 ATHEIST ANCIENT HISTORIANS WHO ONLY WROTE DOWN CURRENT EVENTS OF THEIR DAY. THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT THE TRUE LIFE OF YESHUA/JESUS/THE MAN WHO THESE HISTORIANS CLAIMED TO BE GOD, WAS BRUTALLY BEATEN AND MURDERED, DIED, BURIED, AND 2 HISTORIANS CONFIRM HE DID ARISE FROM THE DEAD!!



***10-historical-facts-about-jesus-from-non-christian-sources***



​1. He was known to be wise and virtuous.

This fact was reported by Jewish Historian Josephus, who was born around AD 37. In his Antiquities of the Jews, he reports:

At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. (1)
​

​2. He had a brother named James.

In recounting the stoning of James, Josephus records:

So he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned. (2)
​

​3. He was known to perform miracles.

Celsus was a 2nd-century Greek philosopher and a fierce opponent of Christianity. In what is known to be the first comprehensive intellectual attack on Christianity, he tried to resolve why Jesus was able to perform miracles. The story is wild—but the main point is that by trying to explain away the miracles of Jesus, he is actually affirming that they happened:

Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.(3)
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​4. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

​This fact comes to us from one of the most trusted historians of the ancient world. Cornelius Tacitus was born in AD56 and served as a respected senator and proconsul of Asia under Emperor Vespasian. He wrote a history of the first century Roman Empire, which many historians consider to be the "pinnacle of Roman historical writing."(4) He notes:

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus. (5)

Josephus confirmed:
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Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die.(6)

​5. His crucifixion was accompanied by darkness and an earthquake.

This fact was originally recorded by a Samaritan historian named Thallus, who was alive at the same time Jesus was (AD 5-60). He wrote a 3-volume history of the 1st-century Mediterranean world, which unfortunately no longer exists. But before his writings were lost, he was cited by another ancient historian, Julius Africanus, in AD 221. Africanus described Thallus' account of what happened during Jesus' crucifixion:
​
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. (7)
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​6. He had many Jewish and Gentile disciples.

Josephus wrote:

And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon discipleship.(8)
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​7. He lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar.

Julius Africanus also reported that another ancient historian, Phlegon, confirmed the darkness at the time of Jesus' death and that Jesus was alive "in the time of" Tiberius Caesar:

Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth. (9)
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​8. His disciples believed that He rose from the dead.

In his commentary regarding the disciples' reaction to Jesus' death, Josephus recorded:

[Jesus' disciples] reported that He had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion; and that he was alive.... (10)
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9. His disciples believed He was God, and they met regularly to worship Him.

Pliny the Younger lived from AD 61-113 and was an influential lawyer and magistrate of ancient Rome. In a letter to Emperor Trajan he wrote:

They [Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. (11)

​Lucian of Samosata was a 2nd-century Greek satirist known for his wit and sarcasm. Even though Christians were the object of his snark, he affirmed certain details about them:

The Christians, you know worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rights, and was crucified on that account....it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. (12)


10. His disciples were willing to suffer and die for their beliefs.

The persecution and suffering of early Christians was recorded by Suetonius, the official secretary of the Roman Emperor Hadrian around AD 121. He documented that they were expelled from Rome in AD 49 by Claudius:

Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he expelled them from Rome. (13)
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​and: ​
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Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief. (14)
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Tacitus also confirmed Nero's persecution of early Christians:
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Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. (15)

Conclusion:

From non-Christian and even anti-Christian sources, we can be sure that Jesus in fact existed, was crucified, was believed to be resurrected from the dead, and His many followers were willing to suffer and die for that belief.

​The next time someone claims that there is no evidence for Jesus outside the Bible, be sure to share these 10 facts with them! ​​​​​​

1. Thallus (52 AD)
Writing about the moment when Yeshua was crucified (35 A.D.) and then sudden darkness covered the noon day sun and multiple earthquakes took place all over Mesopotamia:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Africanus then goes on to point out that an eclipse cannot occur at Passover when the moon is full and therefore diametrically opposite the Sun.[13]




2. Phlegon (56-130 AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 120 AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)








HERE ARE SOME ARTICLES THAT GO INTO GREAT DEPTHS TO HOW "THALLUS AND PHLEGON" WRITINGS CONFIRM YESHUA:

Thallus & Phlegon on Christ | STREET APOLOG!ST.com

https://streetapologist.wordpress.com › 2013/09/29 › thallus-phlegon-on-c...
Sep 29, 2013 - Phlegon of Tralles was a second century historian who was born about 60 AD. Two books are credited to him: Chronicles and Olympiads.
The Ad 33 Date Of The Crucifixion According To Phlegon, A ...

www.freechristianteaching.tv › the-ad-33-date-of-the-crucifixion-accordin...
Phlegon's greatest work was the writing of a history book, called The Olympiades. The Olympiades can be used as a useful means of establishing a time-line.
Thallus: An Analysis - Secular Web

https://infidels.org › library › modern › richard_carrier › thallus
Phlegon reports that in the time of Tiberius Caesar, during the full moon, a full eclipse of the sun happened, from the sixth hour until the ninth. Clearly this is our ...
Phlegon of Tralles Scientifically Established as a Credible ...

https://joebargiel.wordpress.com › 2016/03/22 › phlegon-of-tralles-scientif...
Mar 22, 2016 - Phlegon of Tralles, a Greek historian who lived in the second century, has been referenced by Christian apologists for over a thousand years ...
Phlegon (2) - Biblical Cyclopedia

https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com › phlegon-(2)
Phlegon (2) from the McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia.






i am going to quote you 2 more times with clearer evidence.

even if you are joking around, these are valid questions. i will answer the important one...


Yeshua, the actual Aramaic Name, means Yahweh, which is the known factual name of God pertaining to the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yeshua did not start anything new.

1. He told the Jews, who lived by the "Law," the Law was given because no human could measure up to it.

2. He then said, I come to tell you that you are no longer condemned because the Law is officially history.

3. this upset the religious leaders who like many today, were in it because they could control the people and force them to pay for unwanted services.

3A. by Yeshua telling the Jews they were no longer under condemnation to the Law, that made it now responsible for the Jews to do that to the Gentiles. this was another issue for the piased religious leaders. they liked being better than other peoples.

3B. by Yeshua claiming He was here for "PEACE," this also pissed off the religious leaders who wanted the Messiah to kill their enemies, not make them to accept their enemies as part of themselves.


Yeshua therefore did not change anything.
He made the Jews and Gentiles on equal terms.
what changed is the Jews refused until recently.
and that is a red flag.

BTW, why do i mention the Greeks, when ALL OF THE PEOPLES of Mesopotamia (Greeks, Romans, Jews, Muslims, several others) have known writings of this person called YESHUA and that He was real?

the Greeks and Romans are mortal enemies.

there is a theory that Yeshua was a fable created by the Romans.
I mention the Greeks because being enemy of the Romans, NO WAY would the Greeks COLLABORATE a Roman lie.

besides, Lucian wrote 200 years later confirming the writers before him about people still following this Yeshua person.

it's a fact in my view that Yeshua is a real character that existed and the Greeks did like they did on everything, DOCUMENTED IT!!

this is why i use the Greeks..

look at our very lives, we live in a society, have government, rules, regulation, medical institutions, higher learning in the Sciences and Mathematics along with Philosophy. even in our home life, we are structured very much like the Greek Culture was.

so if our culture is connected to the Greeks, then it's another reason why i mention them claiming Yeshua was the real deal.

to me, the Greeks have given to our current day world the foundations to survive, including on who Yeshua was!!

you are not religious however, you are interjecting your view onto something that has been improperly introduced and explained to all of humanity.

according to the Ancient Greeks writers around 30 to 75 A.D., there was an actual person called Yeshua (Jesus).

The Greeks claim this person did things that no one had seen, been accustomed to, or thought possible by giving us examples He healed the lepers (who had no medicine for their day), who made the blind to see (had no opticians back then for surgery), who raised people who were DEAD back to life (INCLUDING one who was dead in a tomb for 4 days (that is 1 day past the death watch where they watch in case the person was not actually dead but was still buried in the tomb).

Anyways, the Greeks go onto write about Yeshua's life, His Ministry, His purpose. They wrote about His wrongful accused death and even wrote about how even in Greece the sky became black and earthquakes erupted and the things we read in the Bible are specifically mentioned by the ATHEIST GREEKS.

They wrote He claimed He was God, He did these great things, He was killed and 2 Greek writers wrote He RESURRECTED like He had predicted.

Writers afterwards like Lucian continued writing another 200 years laters making the observation ... "STILL TO THIS DAY THE [[[CHRISTIANS]]] FOLLOW THE CRUCIFIED SAGE"...


so what is my point here:

1. Greeks wrote about Yeshua
2. they wrote about His miracles, ministry, purpose even instructing His followers to deny the Greco-Roman deities
3. they wrote He was accused of false accusations
4. they wrote He was crucified
5. they wrote about the sky turning eary pitch black and massive earthquakes took place the moment He died
6. they wrote He Resurrected just like He had predicted
7. they wrote He ascended back to Heaven

The Greeks VERIFY the Jews version of this person called Yeshua like we read in the Bible.


SO:

if this person YESHUA was actually real
if Yeshua actually did as we read in both the Ancient Greek writings and within what the Disciples and Paul wrote
if everything written was but just a FRACTION of the things Yeshua actually did and accomplished
if it ALL is word for word and 100% accurate from both Greek and Jew

that literally means YESHUA was actually GOD in human form!!


NOW:

if that is TRUE concerning Yeshua from both Greeks and Jews, then there is YOUR PROOF about God creating the Universe and everything with the intention of having contact with His own Creation...

if the Greeks and Jews are correct...these are non believing Greeks writing about what they were seeing, experiencing, hearing, witnessing concerning this Yeshua person...makes science, YOU, and several others in this thread alone full of .... and hot air!!

went to edit last post and hit quote. this is a wasted post lol

you understand the mathematics and mechanics behind the schematics of a missile, it's launch path, its coding processes due to seeing the missiles end result, but logically and probability you have no clue as to the Physics of any of it.

and i have spoken to the families of those who were with me that day. and maybe it's due to relating in a one on one personal setting, but those families after sitting and listening to me concerning how i explained what i can clearly recall, are now all Believers of Christ today!!

I can tell you what took place in words, but to understand me, you need to hear it from my mouth, watch me, judge me, and see in that viewpoint from my body language. This kind of Truth and Revelation is something that you only will feel in my spirit, when i share those memories and bring them back to life again.

and I was raised going to my Grandfather and Father's Church, travelled and sat in their teachings within Biblical Colleges, when they were invited to speak in general occasions, and especially when they were invited to define scholar positions towards Scripture itself.

I knew this, still have all of their lifetime's worth of work, literature, teachings, documentations, cassette tapes, film, etc.

But i decided that life was not for me. I decided to live according to things that seemed to be against the belief in God. i was not going to be a preacher/teacher like them. i was never going to put myself into a position of authority ever concerning God, and anything concerning God.

and every stance i made, life **** on me hard, my own decision making became pathetic, my reality became severely flawed and skewed. and one accident, tragedy, awakening, jail after another i eventually was so far down the hole, that when i looked up i could not even see bottom!! i had no control of anything but myself, my mind, my actions, my words.

i began challenging God. basically making it a competition between myself vs God. Bro, the whirlwind i finally crashed from, was more than enough after example, experiences, all of it to conclude I will now see if God was like my Grandfather and Father claimed He was.

I invited Him into my life!!

not a single issue since then. i have never made the type of income i do now, i never had the benefits like i do now, the blessings, every single need is ot only met, but my wants and desires have even been granted.

You be You and believe in nothing, i am going to believe in a Personal God that Spoke it ALL into Existence. because no one, maybe bill gates and warren buffet others like them that could dig a hole out and restart new because of their capital. but it was MIRACLE(((((s))))) that flipped my world upside and around. i was completely ruined and no one knew how to help. many tried. courts and the law would not allow it. i was in the system and trapped. financially ruined beyond bankrupt, my credit was so horrific it would require TWO CO-SIGNERS just for two hundred dollar loan!! it was bad, it was miserable, it was hell.

and even though i joke at times, there are those who once was where i was at...and today...i could buy and sell just about any and all of them.

God flipped it right side up, He corrected my errors, He opened doors no one else had the ability to open. And that does not include the few times I know He saved my life, especially when i saw Him save me after assuring me i would live.

i had enough of life and things that can shipwreck you for good. i make decisions for other people today. i can lose them big losses and gain them big gains. but God put me in a position GOING from needing and requiring advice from ALL OTHERS, to becoming their ADVICE GIVER!!

Since it is obviously clear that Darwin had an idea in mind, an idea that NEVER QUALIFIED FACTUALLY WITH PROOF, just by generational acceptance from future peers, that "Evolution" took place to ever begin with.

And the older Science Books SPECIFICALLY MENTION BY POINTING OUT, that Darwin's IDEAS were NEVER TO BE ACCEPTED AS A FACT, but we are to take the example of how Darwin went about gathering and observing to use for our own studies.

Unfortunately, the literal sufferers OF Psychological Disorders AND OTHER known MENTAL ISSUES, that MANY WITHIN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE are diagnosed with, COMPLETELY MISSED Darwin's examples have no PROOF or FACT but we are ONLY to use his example in our studies for a format/guide, and went straight into how we FACTUALLY DID NOT ARRIVE AND EVOLVE FROM the list of Species that have been assigned as our ancestors including the planta amoeba.

if you want to consider yourself BRILLIANT for literally accepting the views and opinions of people TRUTHFULLY SUFFERING GREATLY FROM MENTAL ILLNESS(es)... then be the BIGGEST FOOL this world has ever known!!

Shout it from the rooftop!!

the greatest stigma about STUPIDITY, is the fact that it is the most contagious and crippling aspect to humanity itself!!

and when you put your faith into those who suffer from Mental Illness, you become the Stigma!!

Luck?

You have no idea what luck is. and You definitely have no idea what looking at the Laws of Physics and having a first hand glimpse witnessing a Greater Law interceding and changing the motion that had been set in place as destiny. those Laws by not completely applying and complying is definite proof in my view this was an obvious and clear MIRACLE!!

a Miracle well beyond the limits of where Luck can even begin to imagine!!

when a scud missile made contact with its target and detonation was set off, recoil took havoc on everything within its deadly range.

one of those instances included 6 enlisted men travelling, who drove right into the actual target zone. a piece of rod iron steel somehow found its way into the skull of 1 enlisted men in the back seat (and chances are that same piece of steel is what most likely almost decapitated the one next to him. the 3rd beside them was crushed to death. the driver and the person next to me (both sitting by me, I was in the middle) were burnt alive before my very eyes. and there was me...not a single scratch.

I saw a Being during this moment, that would have made a total of 7 men, the 6 enlisted and this person that just told me it was not my time. if it was not for the rest of the company following us and witnessing, no one believed me that I was in the same vehicle after examining the others.


^
that is just 1 of a few distinct instances I have experienced where more than just stupid luck could have stepped in.

I am a very hard headed person. and I believe God allowed me to experience these things, especially since I challenged Him to prove to me He existed.

i mentioned the Greeks pertaining to their Ancient historians and that simply the Greek version verifies the Aramaic which both are 1600+ years older than the English versions.

the greek myths have nothing to do with my point.

You are so off the wall, you should be a crooked picture.




it was NEVER jesus, but always Yeshua.

and, Immanuel means God with us. Yeshua means "Yahweh's Salvation," which is what IMMANUEL is referring to...that...God was with them via Yeshua.

there are factual "Truths" and factual "Theories." a theory however, does not actually have to be a "Truth," it just has to be proven and accepted "AS A fact!!"

there are multiple indicators proving the existence of God, outside of actually having a personal relationship with Him.

it's interesting that You harp on seeking facts and truths, but have never solved, the "Mystery of the Word of God.."




i question the entire European belief systems and their Doctrine(s). too many dirty hands involved..




as am i with my own belief.




it took generations for animals to be as domesticated like we witness today. therefore, that was not their inherited traits to be our servants.

human beings on the other hand, those whose consciousness have chosen to agree and obey with certain morals on the idea and principle that we humans are a Species, not evolved from Evolution, but evolved from time and observation in generational life experience... have concluded, a "Set of Rules" is the best way to coincide together.

we unlike any other Specie, felt the need to format a "Code of Ethics."
^
this here is where i see the "TRUTH."

ALL things living, have lived, will live, all from the "BANG!!"

INHERITED, WE, AS IN ALL SPECIES, SHOULD ALL THINK ON SIMILAR TERMS, since we all come from the "SAME BANG!!"

every Species outside of our own fends for themselves and immediate offspring. they kill one another for food or because it could be a threat later...that is Natural Selection.

But we humans, as a Specie unto our own kind, deriving from nothing but our own kind..."WE HAVE SET A CODE OF RULES AND MORALS" in hopes we do not live as the ANIMALS and OTHER SPECIES.

that inherited conviction, that separates us from other Species, is proof of a SOUL that was designed by God!!



yep, each person needs to seek out their own beliefs and convictions. others can offer input, but it all comes down to what that person trusts for themselves.

I only use the Greek for Paul's 13 letters.
everything else in the New Testament is properly documented from the Aramaic.

In Aramaic, Yeshua (the Factual Name of Jesus {WHOM THE GREEKS [7 separate total Ancient Historians of that time and day] WROTE ABOUT AND CONFIRMED WAS A LITERAL AND ACTUAL PERSON KNOWN TO THAT MESOPOTAMIA AREA})...
...means = "Yahweh's Salvation!!"

And that continues the tie of whom the Hebrew people called God (from early Old Testament) that eventually led to Yeshua, whose NAME meant, the Hebrew God and His Salvation.

it tied whom Isaiah spoke of in terms of Yahweh's Messiah.

you try way too hard to keep on failing. God is real, even your Grandfather was most certain of that!!

I know the over 700 names applied to the Hebrew Deity, I know people who were rulers in the Ancient Days were called gods, I understand every point you are attempting to make, but none of it relates to what God is telling Moses...

I'm a big fan of Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and have watched his viewpoints towards what was once labelled God... now has a proper definition to it.

what's interesting about his explanation of Newton and Gravity with God, is he assumes he is properly speaking from Newton's point of view.

if Neil were to take on Einstein's viewpoint of God by the connection, relativity, and the Harmony of how the entire Universe works like an internal creator, supplier of all its needs...
...Neil would understand that he is not eliminating the idea of God, but he is confirming the I.D. of God.

DNA made big leaps in that specific area of study.

from bacteria to the furthest point in our ever continual growing Universe, we are all related, connected, a part of its Harmony, all by the Design of God!!

if you read the verse (it's the quote above your quote) God explains who Moses' father is, Abraham, the father of Isaac, the father of Jacob, ALL followers of Elohim and the father of the Faith.

And Moses' reaction in same verse let's one know he understood what God is saying here because he never questions it like he does other issues being discussed.