Dear Eljay,

You are showing serious signs of '... intellectual bankcrupty...'

The degree of twisting, misinterpretations, ignoring other people's simple points, and spinning a web of lies and deceit, is clearly pointing to someone 'spendng more intellectually than one is worth'.

And that my friend is the point you are missing, ignoring, by-passing, or simply incapable of 'getting'!!!

Your comments and observations lately are tainted with a degree of pompous 'self-importance' that is ridding your posts of any and all credibility.

To come back with :

'... What I determine the point is that you are making is attempting to guess what and how I think...'

... besides the fact that the formulation itself is most confused, is the clearest indication that you haven't a clue about the point being made.

I truly couldn't be less interested in '... what and how you think...' !!!
I simply read some posts on these forums, and address as respectfully as can be, some points of agreement, or points of incoherence, confusion and inconsistency as I see them.

My 'pro' or 'con' 2 cents worth against yours!!!
No more! No less!

Inside that 2 cents worth of ours, you do not have what it takes to lay or imply most of the 'claims' (very different than a personal opinion) that you make.

i.e.: let's say that : '... to you personally, that you have no doubt that the bible is the word of (YOUR) god, and therefore represents the foundation of your own personal faith...'
That experience of faith (dealing with that which IS NOT!!!) makes whatever you elevate your mind to believe 'as true', to be true FOR YOU, BUT NOT TRUE IN THE MATERIAL AND FACT-BASED WORLD.

The bible 'is the word of god' FOR YOU, as a personal belief, but it isn't true in fact. In fact, the bible is a book period. To imply anything else is being guilty of 'intellectual bankcrupty'.

'evolution is a religion', might be elevated as true to you, as a matter of personal belief TO YOU, but in fact, and in the real world, this claim is nothing other than a delusion. It has no foundation whatsoever. To imply anyting else as you do, is being guilty of 'intellectual bankcrupty'.

(your words) '... While there may be numerous Catholics who are christains - claiming to be a Catholic does not make one a christain. Ditto for Protestantism!!!...'

Again, elevate your mind to believe whatever you wish, but in fact, a catholic claiming he is a catholic, IS A CHRISTIAN.
Again, your own personal standards, viewpoint, moral judgment, based on your interpretation of the book on this matter, change nothing with the fact that catholics whom claim to be catholics, ARE CHRISTIANS!!! Again, to imply anyting else as you do, is being guilty of 'intellectual bankcrupty'.

We could go on endlessly picking statements and claims of yours which are oblivious to the 'FAITH - FACT' distinction, creating confusion, deceit, mischaracterizations, etc.
It wouldn't change the fact that they are all given by the syndrome of 'intellectual bankrupty', or insisting unintentionally in giving oneself a 'larger than can be supported' degree of self-importance.

That is the point you have been missing for the longest time. However YOU might value your faith, beliefs and convictions, which is your HUMAN privilege, the universe ISN'T a faith based orgamism, and couldn't care less.

Well before making personal attacks 'Eljay', and declaring ME a 'hypocrite', or '... just not too bright...', it would be important for you to first address the point I am making.

In the case above, you are completely missing the point I am making,
... which might evoke the 'not too bright' epithet to which you are referring,
or maybe you are conciously avoiding the point,
... which might evoke yet the 'hypocrite' epithet you have also coined.

Anyhow, personal attacks simply don't work 'Eljay'.

Attacking, or offering counter arguments of caustic genre to ideas, observations, beliefs, or convictions that we do not agree upon is to be expected,
... but let's stay away from personal attacks.

Especially when those personal attacks are based on misunderstood or misinterpreted claims. They end-up backfiring on the attacker, and I don't enjoy seeing that happen to you 'Eljay'.

Why would that suck??? YOUR black and white 'image' of god and life is rather narrow and subjective.

You make it sound as though faith was some kind of Las Vegas style 'edging-one-bets-wager'!!!

Again, where did you get this 2 bit cracker jack logic???

Are you seriously suggesting that if one isn't following the teachings of Jesus, one is therefore following a 'false' religion, is an atheist/agnostic, is not helping his fellow man, will not be remembered as a good man, and will 'win' eternal damnation to boot!?!!?

Are you suggesting that I, since I do not subscribe to YOUR point of faith, or my jewish and muslim neighbors, whom do not not 'follow the teachings of Jesus',
... are not helping our fellow man,
... are not decent human beings,
... do not uphold high ethical and moral principles, including the one about '... not judging others on their choice of faith...' or beliefs,
and shall somehow die profoundly ignorant of the virtues that YOU claim holding true through your choice of religious practice?!?!?

Are you further suggesting in a most primary fashion, that athiests/agnostics are somehow virtue, moral an ethic less!?!?!?



That's right, you are not attacking beliefs, YOU ARE ATTACKING PEOPLE DIRECTLY!!!

You believe there is a christian/biblical god. That's fine. That's the legitimate extent of YOUR belief and faith, and stating that fact anyhwere you speak and write could never be perceived as an attack towards anyone else.

But that legitimate faith of yours ENDS where someone else's faith, belief system, spiritual convictions start. Your beliefs give you no right to judge or condemn others to 'damnation for eternity'!!! Or judging them as not being committed to serving their fellow man, not having morals, ethic, or virtue!!!

And yet, that is what you have consciously or unconciously achieved with your, while defending yourself from having done any such thing.

The agnostic whom 'believes' that the concept of 'god' is unknowable, has no moral lesson to receive from you. Same with the atheist, whom holds that there is no 'god'. They enjoy the same legitimate right to believe as you do, without the need to endure your 'moralistic' plague.

So it is for the judaic, muslim, buddhist, indhu, or multitude of other 'theist' believers out there. No one can go around suggesting that they only have eternal damnation to look forward to, simply because they do not believe as you do.



This is a profoundly confused perception of the facts.

Whether conciously or unconciously, you are the one attacking people whom do not share YOUR legitimate beliefs. When you claim:

'... So my worst case scenario is living after the teachings of Jesus and helping my fellow man and in the end mabey ill be remembered as a good man. but athiest/agnostic worse case scenario is eternal damnation...'

... you are attacking atheists/agnostics as people whom do not help their fellow man (void of altruistic virtues), and whom will not be remembered a 'good people', thereby casting upon them, eternal damnation.

These people read such ludicrous statements, reply that the statements are way out of line, completely incoherent and unacceptable, and get further judged as 'attacking your beliefs'!!!

That is preposterous!




See what I mean!!! Who are you to cast all these unjust, misleading, dishonest, and outright divisive judgments.

Who are you to suggest, since I don't believe as you do, that I ...

'... don't have a clue where you stand and that why you jump onboard with whatever religion or belief or rebellion to a belief structure that suits you at any emotional given moment...'

or,

'... agnostics/athiest will be in exactly the same place they are today.... unconformed faithless people just waiting to die...'

Where do you get these 2 bit delusional dogmatic idiocies?!?!?

And I should simply read through and not reply, or take the risk of being accused of ATTACKING YOUR BELIEFS!!!

Preposterous!!!

Be strong in your own beliefs, that is your right. But be very clear that anytime you will lack respect towards those whom do not believe the way you do

'... have no clue where they stand...' and '... are just waiting to die, with only damnation to look forward too...',

those people will reply and address YOUR ATTACKS on their beliefs and convictions.

Respectufully.

Exactly!

And you're being most gentle on the 'denialists' Bushidobillyclub.

There are TWO sides by default, but only ONE irreconcilliable extreme:

... fundamentalism, forcing its members to deny and militantly wage endless wars on 'gravity', 'evolution', 'homosexuality', etc., based on a personal belief in the inerrancy of a book.

The other side is nothing other than the rest of the world reminding fundamentalists that reality couldn't care less about their dogma. And unless they wage a 'real' holy war over their dogmatic BS, reality will reamin oblivious to dogma and fundamentalism of any nature.

Faith was never intended to mesh with reality, other than as a concept.

OK!

So, the Pope and catholicism are not representative of christianity.
Protetantism isn't representative of christianity.
Science, the scientific community, all tangible manifestations from scientific research, has absolutely no authority when it comes to holding the scientific theory of evolution, HAS PIECE AND PARCEL OF SCIENCE!!!

Hold on here! All you've been saying for the longest time 'Eljay', is YOU know better.

Since YOU have been deceived by catholicism, the pope and all 1,3 billion catholics around the world are not really christians.

Since the scientific theory of 'evolution' contradicts or conflicts, depending on your delicate pick of words 'Eljay', with YOUR world view, or beliefs, or faith, or truth seeking experiment, 'evolution' becomes, as declared by YOU, a 'religion'.

YOU request proof!
YOU request that the world addresses YOUR capricious and insatiable PERSONAL FAITH BASED CONVICTIONS!

YOU are convinced about YOUR own convictions, beliefs, experiences. That is good for YOU 'Eljay'! And believe when I say that I am glad that YOU are confortable with YOUR own convictions. But you'll need to acknowledge that YOU are a religion of ONE 'Eljay'.

With the humility that I trust you might be able to muster, you'll have to realize that YOUR religion of ONE is supported by nothing other than YOUR personal experiences of ONE, which have no more credibility than the credibility it has for YOU, and have little to no importance above and beyond the personal experiences and convictions of anyoneONE else's.

The chrisitian world doesn't care much that you do not find it representative of christianity, and the scientific community, as well as the world at large, doesn't care much that you are convinced that 'evolution' is a reilgion. The world will go on without your convictions, and you have the absoulute privilege to hold on to them as you wish.

To make the EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM that

... the pope and 1,3 billion christians are not representative of christianity,

and,

... that the scientific rality of the theory of evolution is nothing more than a 'religion',

requires EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE, which YOU dear Eljay, with all your personal 'apologetic' studies, and personal biblical word pilgrimages, will never be in a position to establish.

The profound lack of crediblity, confusion, conflict, contradictions, mixed perspectives, EXTREME subjectivity, and just being ONE whom has faith which is founded on NO EVIDENCE, just like everyone else, should convince you to regroup, declare yourself whole and happy in your personal convictions, and leave these insane and unwinnable arguments alone, for the benefit of exchanges that might have a REAL chance of making a difference.

That was the point of my 'scope trial' post earlier:
'... How otherwise smart and articulate people whom could make a difference in the world, can come across as rather ingnorant and disingeneuous when hypnotized and posessed by dogma, which as a result, would throws them compulsively in endlessly waging 'LOST BATTLES'!!!...'

Based on that 'baiting' logic, the 'creationism vs evolution', including the ludicrous '... is evolution compatible with the bible...' threads, should all be deleted. If those are not 'baiting', I don't what is.

With respect to the topic you are attempting to raise here 'Bushidobillyclub', let me try and paraphrase what I get out of it and tell whether I'm 'on' or 'off' track.

Boxing people into simple categories is a lot easier than actually engaging in an honest and authentic exchange with them.

In fact, when one is not interested in engaging in a genuine converstation or exchange, when one's 'purpose' is to push a point, and be right about it, no matter what counter argeuments are presented, one only finds agreers and disagreers, us vs them, a reaching or baiting exhange.

In the context of many of our exchanges on these religious forums, and we were to extend it to the political forums, the camps quickly become locked into 'us' vs 'them' dogmatic cat fight.

Throughout the religious forums, it is the 'christians' against the 'athiests'. As for th political forums, there seems to be nothing other than the 'moral majority right' and the 'socialist left'.

If I understand correctly 'Bushidobillyclub', you are suggesting that there is large rainbow of distinctions to be made between the too easy 'us vs them' one size fits all packaging.

That it is profoundly inaccurate to suggest that all christians are a bunch of fundamentalist proselytizers, and by the same token, it is equally misleading to label and lump all those whom do not fit the extremely narrow dogma of 'fundamentalism', a bunch of sinning atheists.

Before going on with this, I am on track???

'Eljay',

It would seem to me that you have missed the point of most of the posts that you address and to which you reply lately.

Transcripts from a courthouse are hardly 'gone with the wind' sourced. I can sense that you were attempting to mock my post, but please 'Eljay', 'gone with the wind'!?!?!?

As for missing the point alltogether, I choose not to humiliate you by explaining it.
I trust you have gotten the point, choose to ignore it, and privilege instead some 2 bit apologetic diversion.

P.S.: If you have genuinely missed the point of the post, I'll be glad to address it with you.

The topic still is ...

'... is evolution compatible with the bible???...'

IMO this is still a fundamentalist ANSWER, uninterested in debating, and hypocrytically mascarading its undefendable dogma as a question.

Taking a closer look at a historical trial, helps to put the undefendable stance of fundamentalists in its proper perspective.

Between July 10-25, 1925, The Scopes 'Monkey Trial', captured the world's attention.

The fundamentalist-bible inerrancy-apologist world view, founded on a ‘word-for-word’ interpretation of the bible, was shown to be IGNORANT at best and DANGEROUS at worst BACK THEN. Considering these threads in 2009, it would appear that not much has EVOLVED from the ‘fundamentalist’ perspective.

The Scopes ‘Monkey trial’ was essentially the rationalists of the time challenging a Tennessee law forbidding the teaching of evolution.

THE CAST:

Clarence Darrow,
famed and brilliant lawyer specializing in defending underdogs, who volunteered for this case to help combat what many perceived at the time as FUNDAMENTALIST IGNORANCE

Versus

William Jennings Bryan,
known as "The Great Commoner," a tent-revivalist, three-time presidential candidate and former Secretary of State to Woodrow Wilson. His checkered political career over, he switched to the evangelism business.

And

John T. Scopes, a 24-year old science teacher and football coach, whom had actually defied the Tennessee law by teaching Darwin’s theory of evolution in his science class.

Reading the transcripts of the crucial part of the trial, where Darrow calls Bryan to the box as a witness, revealed to the world the degree of ignorance that the ‘fundamentalist-bible inerrant’ dogma cultivated among its otherwise well-educated, intelligent and articulate adherents.

It was a WORLD SHOCKER THEN, and I can’t understand how in 2009, ‘fundamentalists’ hold exactly the same views, and present exactly the same arguments, and somehow expect to be vindicated!!!

I invite you to read the following exchanges between ‘DARROW’ and ‘BRYAN, and while reminding yourself that this took place in 1925, noticing the incredible similitude with the fundamentalists exchanges on these threads today.

"You have given considerable study to the Bible, haven't you, Mr. Bryan?"
"Yes I have, I have studied the Bible for about fifty years."
"Do you claim that everything in the Bible should be literally interpreted?"
"I believe everything in the Bible should be accepted as it is given there ..."
"Do you believe Joshua made the sun stand still?"
"I believe what the Bible says."
"I suppose you mean that the earth stood still?"
"I don't know. I am talking about the Bible now. I accept the Bible absolutely."
More questions show that Bryan barely understands the workings of the solar system, then Darrow asks:
(Darrow)You believe the story of the flood to be a literal interpretation?
(Bryan)Yes sir.
(Darrow)When was that flood?
(Bryan)I would not attempt to fix the day.
(Darrow)But what do you think the Bible itself says? Don't you know how it was arrived at?
(Bryan)I never made a calculation.
(Darrow)What do you think?
(Bryan)I do not think about things I don't think about.
(Darrow)Do you think about the things you do think about?
(Bryan)Well sometimes.
Now, the crowd in the courtyard was laughing at Bryan instead of Darrow.
(Darrow) How long ago was the flood, Mr. Bryan?
(Bryan)Two-thousand three hundred and forty-eight years B.C.
(Darrow)You believe that all the living things that were not contained in the ark were destroyed?
(Bryan)I think the fish may have lived.
(Darrow)Don't you know there are any number of civilizations that are traced back to more than five thousand years?
(Bryan)I am not satisfied with any evidence I have seen.
(Darrow)You believe that every civilization on the earth and every living thing, except possibly the fishes, were wiped out by the flood?
(Bryan)At that time.
(Darrow)You have never had any interest in the age of the various races and peoples and civilizations and animals that exist upon the earth today?
(Bryan)I have never felt a great deal of interest in the effort that has been made to dispute the Bible by the speculations of men or the investigations of men.
(Darrow)And you never have investigated how long man has been on the earth?
(Bryan)I have never found it necessary.
(Darrow)Don't you know that the ancient civilizations of China are six thousand or seven thousand years old, at the very least?
(Bryan)No, but they would not run back beyond the creation, according to the Bible, six thousand years.
(Darrow)You don't know how old they are; is that right?
(Bryan)I don't know how old they are, but probably you do. I think you would give preference to anybody who opposed the Bible.

More questions show Bryan's lack of knowledge of world culture, history and people.
(Darrow)You have never in all your life made any attempt to find out about the other peoples of the earth - how old their civilizations are, how long they have existed on the earth - have you?
(Bryan) No sir, I have been so well satisfied with the Christian religion that I have spent no time trying to find arguments against it. I have all the information I want to live by and to die by.
(Darrow)Do you think the earth was made in six days?"
(Bryan) Not six days of 24 hours.
(Darrow)Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife?
(Bryan) No sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her.
(Darrow)Do you think the sun was made on the fourth day?
(Bryan)Yes.
(Darrow)And they had evening and morning without the sun?
(Bryan) I am simply saying it is a period.
(Darrow)The creation might have been going on for a very long time?
(Bryan)It might have continued for millions of years.
(Darrow)Yes, All right.

The local papers went on to report:

DAYTON, Tenn. July 25. “Darrow had exposed Bryan as a near imbecile. Darrow asked for and was granted an immediate direct verdict, thereby blocking Bryan from giving a speech he had been preparing for weeks.”

“Even today, there are people who deny the fact that all life is connected, and that humans are just part of the equation.

Fundamentalist insistence on the literal verity of scripture is grounded in a lack of faith, and inability to see a bigger picture. That being said, it seems to escape fundamentalists, that the vast majority of CHRISTIANS, of whom they claim to be part, accept the Genesis account of creation as what it is, a metaphor.

Clarence Darrow said: "Science gets to the end of its knowledge and, in effect, says, 'I do not know what I do not know,' and keeps on searching. Religion gets to the end of its knowledge, and in effect, says, 'I know what I do not know,' and stops searching.

Genesis says the world was created in six days. It also says that Adam lived 930 years (Gen 5:5), and that Noah was 600 years old when the flood happened (Gen 7:6). We can take these figures literally, believing that "people just lived longer in those days," or if we have a shred of intelligence or honesty, we can surmise that Biblical time reckoning is on a metaphoric scale. Of course, this allows Genesis to agree with observed evolution.”

Remember folks, this was in 1925!!!

Is evolution compatible with the bible???

YES!
... IF YOU’RE A CHRISTIAN.

and still NO!
... IF YOU’RE A FUNDAMENTALIST!!!

Are you replying to my post 'yellow'???

If so, I wrote 'fundamentalists', NOT CHRISTIANS!!!

How can christians be 'lumped in and bashed' when they are not even mentioned???

I denounce the ways of Fundamentalism. IMO, it is deceitful, and I believe it gives christians a bad name.

If you remember the 'monkey trial', the coined statement came from 'fundamentalists', deforming and ridiculizing Darwin's theory.

'... I ain't got no monkey brothers, no sirry bob!!! ...' was a favorite saying of the day, ... way back then!!!

Now I will keep denouncing fundamentalist abuse whenever I see it 'yellowrose'. To refer to it as 'bashing' is most inaccurate. If that were the case, then everyone here is 'bashing' everyone else the moment they voice a divergence of opinion.

There has never been any such 'theory'.

It's an ancient urban legend spread by fundamentalist/apologists.

If it is a theory at all, it is a theory of deceit, aimed at filling fundamentalist church pews.

When you deny 2 000 years of 'EVOLUTIONARY DNA' AND inherited 'knowledge',

... and obsessively hang on to a context of knowledge: 'written word wizardry', dating back more than 2 000+ years ago,

... YOU ARE UNQUESTIONABLY COMMITTING THE SIN OF SPREADING IGNORANCE FOR EGO-CENTRIC, SELF-SERVING PURPOSES!!!

By denying REALITY, CONTEXT, and PROPER PERSPECTIVE, (basic critical thinking components), strictly for self-serving STROKING, FUNDAMENTALISM dedicates itself exclusively to spreading IGNORANCE, PERIOD!!! Not love, not Jesus, not god, not peace, not 'good', not truth, JUST IGNORANCE LIKE A DRUG!!!

2 000+ years ago people didn't even realize that they lived in ignorance!!!
It wasn't distinguished as such. People weren't expected to 'know' anything about reading or writing, or any form of other 'greater knowledge'. THUS THE INCREDIBLE POWER THAT COULD BE EXERCISED, and the powers that be of the time (governance in bed with religious orders) exploited it for all it was worth.

2 000+ years ago, given the context of the time, it was understandable that people could confuse the mascarade for 'REALITY'!!!

But given that the 'charlatans' haven't changed one iota of their deceiving practices in 'preaching' to people's ignorance in 2009,

... to find people obsessively insisting in maintaining that kind of heresy, is an insult to the most basic of human intelligence, it is a serious delusionary illness, it is pathetically narcissistic at best, and it is a DANGER TO HUMANITY at worst.

Most of all, it is a profound insult and absolute denial of the concepts of faith, beliefs, spirituality and the 'notion' of
god(s) as a UNIVERSAL UNIFYING FORCE (as far from the 'divisive' notion of fundamentalists as can be)!!!

Hey 'Feral'!!! I too, am inspired by god, and ...

... THIS IS NOW WRITTEN!!!

THANK YOU 'FERAL'!!!

That is a perfect example of a dogmatic, empty vessel, oxymoronic statement which FUNDAMENTALISTS MENTORS train their apologetic puppets to throw out when the 'fear of burning in hell forever' no longer does the trick.

What part of '... faith and science do not connect...' do you not understand 'Feral' !?!?!?

Don't you get at least a 'tiny...little itsy...bitsy...hintsy' as you would say, that you are riding up the wrong pole here???

Don't you get 'Feral' that IF biology suggested that eveything is subjected to 'Evolution' EXPECT FOR MANKIND!!! We wouldn't be having this conversation???

Don't you get that the problem here is that fundamentalists insist on a HUMAN-CENTRIC UNIVERSE, ... where man somehow would be the crown jewel of the universe, and THIS HUMAN CROWN JEWEL somehow worked independently of the rest of the universe, escpaed its workings, and laws, and only answered to a 2 000 year book of fables which declares it a creation of a specific god!?!?!?

If you wish to believe that 'Feral', it is entirely your prerogative.

When you confuse it with FACT however, it becomes a delusion, and you and your few fundamentalist friends are the only ones whom aren't in on the joke!!!

While the 'human-centric' notion is a very natural and most PRIMITIVE INSCTINCT to view our existence, we as a race have 'EVOLVED' enough to realize that we are not at the centre of the universe, IN SPITE OF OUR IMPERFECT 'SELF-AWARE' EXCLUSIVE NEO-CORTEX!!!

So, let's recapitulate.

We've got our 4 DESTRUCTIVE ASPECTS of the FUNDAMENTALIST-PROSELYTIZING ways...

1 - HOW FUNDAMENTALISM PROMOTES (proselytizes) IGNORANCE!!!

2 - HOW FUNDAMENTALISM IS DESIGNED TO APPEAL TO THE MOST PRIMITIVE EG0-CENTRIC, AND SELF-SERVING TENDENCIES IN HUMAN BEINGS.

3 - HOW FUNDAMENTALISM DENIES THE POWER OF GOD!!!

4 - HOW US FUNDAMENTALISM IS A FORCE FOR EVIL IN US SOCIETY
How Should Fundamentalism Be Fought?

Well 'Feral', it is time, you have deserved it, you have shown a sincere and desperate, however confused, desire to REPENT and CHANGE YOUR WAYS,

SO HERE IS YOUR ONLY WAY TO SALVATION 'FERAL':

FUNDAMENTALISM IS EVIL, AND THIS EVIL CAN ONLY BE FOUGHT THROUGH EDUCATION!!! (the root of educate, is to eradicate the primitive and barbarian in us!!!)

It is obvious that the best innoculant (tokeep with the 'virus' metaphor) against any form of ignorance is education.
And make no mistake, fundamentalism is a form of SPECTACULAR INGNORANCE, ignorance of the BASIC PRINCIPLES OF TRUE RELIGION, TRUE SPIRITUALITY.

It is no coincidence that fundamentalism has arisen in America at the same time that the public education system has collapsed. And it is also no coincidence that fundamentalism is strongest in America and elsewhere in the world wherever the educational system is at its weakest.

WHAT IS THE BEST FORM OF EDUCATION?

CRITITICAL THINKING SKILLS!!!
It is the most important skill any educator can teach. With it, the fundamentalism's deceiving tricks are quickly exposed, and it is seen for what it is.

Students need to be taught the importance of gathering the evidence and then proceeding to the conclusion, not the other way around.

The best way to teach logic, reason and critical thinking skills is with the "Socratic method" of guided discussion. This should be done beginning in the earliest grade, and by the fourth year, the formal elements of logic and reason can be introduced, so that students have a guide in recognizing and rejecting fallacious thinking. Doing this with rigor and consistency throughout the educational process will lead to a generation that will think independently as a matter of habit, rather than accepting pre-digested doctrines blindly such as 'INTELLIGENT FALLING', the latest in ludicrous fundamentalist argument against GRAVITY!!!

Imagine, 'INTELLIGENT FALLING'!!!

HAVE THEY NO SHAME!!!

It would be helpful too, to teach what true religion really is. Once the student is aware of the nature of true religion, the fundamentalist doesn't stand a chance, because the logical weakness of his doctrine becomes obvious and the devious subtlety of its appeals are exposed.

The other effective way to fight fundamentalism is to teach HUMILITY.

Here 'Feral', you'll have to consider dropping this 'speaking as though it was god's only and exclusive truth'!!! Lacks humility BIG TIME!

Without HUMILITY, Spiritual progress is impossible.

And without HUMILITY, combined to critical thinking skills, allowing to distinguish between faith and science, scientific progress is impossible .

I'm not suggesting students should be humiliated for their beliefs -- not at all.
That's child abuse and should be fought vigorously.

But the value of humility should be taught, so that students understand that they can't maintain an open mind in the absence of humility. They'll gain a lot from learning it, not just academically, but in relationships and social skills, too.

Perhaps the best way to check the progress of fundamentalism is with critical, analytical thinking. If every school taught the basics of critical thinking, learning would flourish and fundamentalism would fade.

FUNDAMENTALIST APOLOGISTS LACK SCHOLARLY RIGOR, AND IN THEIR RUSH TO ENSURE THAT THEY ARE COVERING ALL THE OBVIOUS PROBLEMS WITH THE DOTRINES THEY PREACH, THEY OFTEN COMMIT GROSS ERRORS IN LOGIC. TO WIT:

- FUNDAMENTALIST APOLOGISTS concentrate on their opponents' weak points, while rarely saying anything definitive about their own position. They point, for example, to the fact that an honest scientist will refuse to make a statement from a position of certainty, while they're happy to do so, claiming divine knowledge. This is an example of the straw-man fallacy.

- FUNDAMENTALIST APOLOGISTS exploit errors made by scholars who are making opposing arguments, implying that because a few of their opponents' conclusions were wrong, all of their opponents' conclusions must be wrong. An example here is the claim, occasionally heard, that Newton was proven wrong in some important details, Einstein was eventually proven wrong in a few details, and scientists admit that they don't have the final answers and therefore science doesn't know what it's doing, and can't be trusted. This is a NON-SEQUITOR FALLACY.

- FUNDAMENTALIST APOLOGISTS use quotations, usually taken out of context to buttress their own position. A favorite here is the various quotations of Einstein, usually referring to God, suggesting that Einstein believed in the same sort of God they do. Einstein most emphatically did not, as will be obvious if you read his essay on the subject. This is the FALLACY OF SUPPRESSED EVIDENCE.

- FUNDAMENTALIST APOLOGISTS mistake genuine, honest debates between scholars about certain points within a field for a dispute about the existence of the entire field. For example, rather than debate the legitimacy of the interpretation of specific fossil evidence, vis a vis evolution, they often attack paleontology in general, claiming it to be an invalid science. This is the FALLACY OF HASTY GENERALIZATION.

- FUNDAMENTALIST APOLOGISTS focus on what is not known and ignore what is known, emphasizing data that fits and discounting data that does not fit. An example is the claim that science simply doesn't have an answer as to the age of the universe. True enough, but science has solid, reliable evidence that it is more than the seven thousand years that these same fundamentalists claim.This is again the FALLACY OF SUPPRESSED EVIDENCE.

On an interesting note, in reading 'Carl Sagan', in his last book, 'The Demon Haunted World', gives us some excellent tools for the use in the process of critical thinking. Nothing new, but always a useful refresher. In a nutshell, here are the key points I pulled out:

- Where possible, what is claimed to be factual has to be independently confirmable by two or more sources not in league with each other.

- Debate and argument must be encouraged, not stifled.

There's no such thing as an "authority." They've been wrong in the past and will be in the future. Which means they're wrong now.

- More than one hypothesis is needed to stimulate debate. All points of view should be examined equally and with as little bias as possible.

- Don't get emotionally attached to your own hypothesis (faith?). Doing so blinds you to better ideas.

- Quantifiable hypotheses are better than qualitative ones, because they are more testable. In other words, go for testable hypotheses first because untestable qualitative ones are of little value.

- If there's a chain of logic that supports an argument, every link in that chain must be valid and unbroken.

- Go for simplicity. Occam's Razor states that of the competing hypotheses that explain the data equally well, the one most likely to be correct is the one that makes the least number of assumptions and is the least complicated.

- Hypotheses that can't be experimentally disproven aren't worth much. For a hypothesis to be useful, it has to be testable, which means it must be capable of being disproven if wrong. Skeptics have to be able to follow your arguments, do your experiments and be capable of producing the same experimental results if your hypothesis is to be considered correct.

You see 'Feral', this is the checklist against which you will be in a position to redeem yourself, and save all other ingnorant fundamentalists that have been trapped in this MISSION OF DECEIT!!!

EDUCATE!

CRITICAL THINKING!

HUMILITY!

I trust you shall be saved 'Feral', and will soon empower your intrinsinc sense for what is 'good'!!!

Who knows, maybe we'll have REAL OPEN MINDED AND NURTURING DEBATES, freed-up from fundamentalist-dogmatic conclusions before they start.

One can dream!

And one can believe without evidence!!!

Here is the FOURTH DESTRUCTIVE ASPECT about fundamentalist-proselytizing ways :

4 - HOW US FUNDAMENTALISM IS A FORCE FOR EVIL IN US SOCIETY

FUNDAMENTALISM DERAILS PROGRESS
That’s what US fundamentalism was founded upon in the late 1800’s, earlier 1900’s. A fierce ‘obstruction’ to all emerging modernity. By distracting otherwise sincere people from honest self-examination and the spiritual growth it makes possible, and by obstructing honest scientific inquiry and intellectual debate, fundamentalism derails the progress that individuals and society as a whole would achieve by honest, competent religious or spriritual practice of choice.

But more than that, fundamentalism all too often justifies in its adherents' minds, the prejudices, the zealotry, the intolerance and the hatemongering that are all the most base of human instincts. Much human misery owes its origins to fundamentalist religion and the spiritual corruption it fosters.

FUNDAMENTALISM IMPEDES THE SEARCH FOR WHAT IS TRUE
Human progress is essentially a search for truth. To the extent that fundamentalism blocks or impedes that search for the truth, it blocks or impedes human progress. True religion is a relentless search for and acceptance of truth about yourself and the universe, regardless of the discomfort that truth may cause.

EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW
One of the insights of the American democracy has been the unique concept of justice of 'equal protection under the law'.
Unfortunately, fundamentalism undermines that concept by promoting its political religious agenda as superior to others, even though it is often wrong, and thereby undermines the egalitarian foundations of western democratic institutions. An example of this is the hard fight that the Southern Baptists fought in the last century to preserve the institution of slavery, and the fight to preserve segregation in this century. Those fights were all based on Biblical scripture, of course, but few fundamentalists today would still defend these positions.

IN TODAY’S WORLD, CRUSADES AND INQUISITIONS ARE OUT
Fundamentalism of any stripe is not progress, but rather, I contend, is the impedance of progress. With so many problems facing humanity, the notion that we can even afford the luxury of even tolerating politically active brands of fundamentalism is rapidly becoming impossible. The world gets continually smaller as it gets more crowded, and the imposition, by public policy, of religious doctrines on others who know better is a sure recipe for strife. It has been the cause of enormous death and suffering over the centuries.

As the world becomes ever more crowded, there are fewer and fewer places to which a refugee of conscience can escape. For this reason, it is imperative that we strive to make our nations as egalitarian as possible, affording for all the freedom of conscience to all equally and without acceding to the presumption of superior wisdom by any religious group. Environmental pressures caused by rapidly expanding human populations, make public policy decisions based on the best available information and hypotheses, elucidated by honest intellectual inquiry, increasingly urgent.

Some fundamentalist religious groups, which seek to strike down the wall of separation between church and state so that they can impose their views on others, work in opposition to this increasingly urgent need.

FUNDAMENTLISM WORKS IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF TIME AND HUMAN SPIRIT,
… AND NEITHER TIME NOR HUMAN SPIRIT CARE MUCH ABOUT FUNDAMENTALISM!!!

Whether your fundamentalist views agree or not,

… all human beings are equal under US law, regardless of sexual orientation, nationality, religion and social rank or status.

… it is our modern society’s legal responsibility, in view of the inescapable reality of abortions, that they be performed in the most limited, respectful, dignified and safe manner possible.

… and whether or not you are satisfied with the personal PROOF you asked for, and never got, a world given by GRAVITY, EVOLUTION and QUANTUM PHYSICS, is the reality we live into everyday of our lives in 2009.

FUNDAMENTALISM is a lot like turning out the lights of the universe. And that is evil enough for me!

OK! Your old ways haven't been shaken off yet! You still appear to be very confused; all over the place and yet nowhere all at once.

But I'll take it on faith that this is your road to the ultimate cleansing from your sinful 'fundametalist-apologetic-proselytizing' ways.

So here we go with our THIRD DESTRUCTIVE ASPECT about your fundamentalist-proselytizing ways 'feral':

1 - HOW FUNDAMENTALISM DENIES THE POWER OF GOD!!!

That's right 'Feral', know this: the greatest philosophical problem of YOUR fundamentalism is that it denies the power of God.

Gott Mit Uns (God is with us) proclaimed the belt buckles of the Nazi SS storm troopers. Of course, every religious fundamentalist makes the same claim. The way that the fundamentalist justifies the exercise of his influence and power in society is that God is on his side, and needs his efforts to see that God's work is done.

I remember a quote from this famous Christian fundamentalist, Randall Terry, Funder of Operation Rescue, it went exactly like this:

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
-Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue
Quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana. 8-16-93

Ralph Reed, a christian fundamentalist political technician even says of himself,
"I'm the stealth candidate... I paint my face and travel at night."

How does he morally justify that kind of deceptive behavior? Does the end justify the means? Or is God simply incapable of implementing His own agenda without this little man Ralph's help?

Does God really need the fundamentalist's help 'Feral'?

To make the claim that God needs one's efforts is a flat-out denial of the power of God. Claiming that God is omnipotent and omniscient is to imply that nothing happens in the universe that isn't happening with the knowledge and consent of God. How could it happen without the knowledge of God? It has to be that way if you accept the omniscience of God. If God doesn't allow it, how can it happen? Otherwise, God would not be omnipotent. If God allows it, it implies at least knowledge and consent.

Why, then, must God require the services of the fundamentalist to ensure that His will happens in the Universe?

If the homosexual were as abhorrent to God as most fundamentalists imply, the homosexual wouldn't last a millisecond. Otherwise, God cannot be omnipotent. Why would an omnipotent God need someone else to persecute the homosexual for Him?

If God is saying, "I'll let him live, but he's still abhorrent" it implies that God's behavior isn't consistent with what He wants. Why would God want something abhorrent to him to continue to exist?

THEN THERE'S PROSELYTIZATION!!!

There is a saying in Buddhism THAT WHERE THE STUDENT IS READY, THE TEACHER IS PROVIDED!!!

Such a concept certainly affirms the power of God to bring the word of God to the sincere seeker.
Why then, does the fundamentalist almost always assume that God needs him to go out and spread God's word?
If God is omnipotent, He doesn't need anyone to proselytize on His behalf. He's quite capable of steering the seeker in the direction of His word all by Himself.

See 'Feral'?!?!?

Can you see how you're belittleing YOUR GOD! While yor church 'community outreach' meisters have you all worried about words in a book, your squarely missing the boat with god.

That's the harm 'Feral'!!!

The very god you claim to love so much, you simply end up belittleing him in te eyes of those that might seek!!!

Fundamentalism contaminates faith and beliefs. It contaminates people, PERIOD!

'Eljay',

Feeling a bit weak pushing your 'subject authority' here 'Eljay'!?!?!
Frank Turek, R.C. Sproul, D.J. Kennedy are truly not going to do much to restrore your armories here!!! ... to name a few!!! No more, for your own sake, name no more.


And then, this ...

'... CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE!!! ...'
'... TRUTH OF FACTS PRESENTED!!!...'
'... AVOIDING THE REAL ISSUE!!!...'

You are truly pushing the credibility envelope.

Creationism vs evolution is a fundamentalist coined oxymoron!!!

:slaphead

OK FERAL!!!

I'm gettin getting e-mails gallore from tons of NON-FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS. Remember!?!?!? The 99,997% of all other christians?!?!?!

They're suggesting we get a hold of your proselytizing-apologetic 'MENTORS' and let them know that you are not ready for prime time proselytizing, you know, the '... COMMUNITY OUTREACH...' thing!!!...'

It would appear that you are doing more damage to the christian community than good. We're loosing members BIG TIME 'feral'!!!

If not for me, do it for the cause: STOP PROSELYTIZING!!!

OK 'Feral'!!! That's great!

I'll take your above post, however confused it turns out to be, to mean that you are starting to see the MADNESS OF YOUR WAYS, and are genuinely seeking to CORRECT your sinful obessive/compulsive behavior.

In that light, allow me to submit to you the SECOND DESTRUCTIVE ASPECT about your fundamentalist-proselytizing ways 'feral':

2 - HOW FUNDAMENTALISM IS DESIGNED TO APPEAL TO THE MOST PRIMITIVE EG0-CENTRIC, AND SELF-SERVING TENDENCIES IN HUMAN BEINGS.

You see 'Feral', while you obviously do not realize this, your sinful fundamentalist ways give you the delusional conviction that YOUR GOD needs YOUR SERVICES.
Of course 'feral', you feel flattered by it all, YOU get a SELF-STROKE out of it, and, like all other fundamentalists, YOU feel entrusted with a sense of mission, and YOU feel GOOD about what you're doing. Self-serving, ego-centric, get he picture?!?!?

But it doesn't stop there. When you and your few fundamentslist friends figure God is on your side, you can justify almost anything.

Lies, deceit, confusion, denial, hypocrisy, ignorance, etc. Some of your friends have even gone as far as murder, as recently in history as the bombings of abortion clinics, and gay bars in the US, underlining how far this delusional self-justification can take the fundamentalists, claiming the authority of their biblical god.

You get it now 'Feral', '... love the confused, delusional sinner, and not the fundamentalist-proselytizing sins within him/her!...'

Of course, if God wasn't willing to allow abortion, or homosexuals, IT SIMPLY WOULDN'T EXIST. There would be way enough 'free-choice- tihs' without those two.

SO WHY???? DOES GOD NEED THE FUNDAMENTALISTS (THAT WOULD BE YOU 'FERAL')TO CARRY OUT HIS WILL!?!?!?

Of course god doesn't need humans to help him out!!! But this does not occur to the fundamentalist, it doesn't occur to you 'Feral', since you and your friends' conception of God's word becomes your self-justification for acts you would find abhorrent in any other context. (read that last part many times over, and preferably SLOWLY!)

So, there is this delusion that '... your god needs YOU!!!...', but this isn't the only base delusional appeal in fundamentalism.

Another appeal, equally delusional and equally damaging, is the notion that...

... YOU'RE ONE OF "God's chosen."

Such an idea is an outright appeal to vanity and ego. Most definitely ego-centric and self-serving.

Here 'Feral', the unspoken implication is that if you're one of God's chosen, the other fellow isn't, and that you're therefore better, more, above, entitled ... NOT!!! Get it 'Feral'!?!?!?

This appeal to vanity can set the fundamentalist, that would be you 'Feral', apart in his/her own mind from his peers (that would be the fundamentalist delusion).
It can justify a certain arrogance in thinking she/he is superior. Try and think of all your 'fascist' little comments that would fit inside : ...

'... God said it! I believe it! That settles it!...', you probably feel right at home with this little fascist statement!

But this 'fundamentalist-proselytizing' sinful attitude of yours 'Feral', is seen in just about any public debate involving you and a couple of other 'fundamentalists-proselytizers', opposing those whom think differently -- IT IS THE ONLY ATTITUDE THE FUNDAMENTALISTS SEEM TO BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH, WHENEVER 'EVOLUTION, ABORTION, or GAY RIGHTS' VS THE 'BOOK, COME UP!!!

Kind of limited in terms of options, and redundant from a nurturing exchange point of view, wouldn't you say 'Feral'!?!?

OK! So! Moving right along, we've got the master delusions:
- '... YOUR GOD NEEDS YOU!!!...'
- '... YOU'RE ONE OF 'GOD'S CHOSEN!!!'...'

And there is more!!!

Another belief common to YOU 'FERAL' and your fundamentalists is that you are somehow less vulnerable to the vicissitudes of life. God will somehow protect YOU, because YOU ARE CHOSEN TO DO GOD'S WILL (can you hear the trumpets 'Feral'!!!).
Of course if that were actually true, it would be reflected in statistical analysis.
Science has studied this claim extensively and has never been able to show a correlation between fundamentalist belief and any measure of well-being. To the fundamentalist who holds this view, however, it just means science is wrong. Isn't that right 'Feral'!?!?!?

And it gets worst.

Fundamentalism often justifies hatred in the minds of its adherents. This is undoubtedly the most dangerous aspect of fundamentalism.

The idea that God hates the same people you do is particularly gratifying in that it makes the indulgence in hatred not only acceptable, but somehow approved and even encouraged by God. Of course 'Feral', YOU and your friends don't call it hatred!!! Let's you might call it '...attacks on your beliefs and YOUR GOD'S WILL!!!...' That's right! Not hatred! ... NOT!!!(AS YOU WOULD WRITE YOURSELF 'FERAL).

The results are obvious. Terrorism in Northern Ireland, which is framed in religious terms, war in the Middle East, domestic terror in Egypt, Algeria, and in countless other conflicts around the world are the results of hatred justified by the fundamentalist notion that my side is right and the other side is wrong. If the religionists involved adhered to the concept that the purpose of religion is to teach tolerance, love and compassion, such conflicts would not exist. But they are justified to the fundamentalist, because he believes that God is on his side and will reward him for his acts that in any other context, he himself would condemn.

And that delusional conviction comes from nothing else than this man made concept of 'REDEMPTION AGAINST SIN AND GUILT'!!!

That sense of exemption relieves the guilt and shame, and thereby makes the follower feel good. That good feeling is then often associated with the notion that the follower has been 'saved.'

But there is a price for that salvation!!! And the religion sure EXTRACTS it from the 'saved one'!!!

And you've guessed it 'Feral', the price is a condemnation for eternity to ... PROSELYTIZE ON THE BEHALF OF THE 'CHURCH, DOGMA, DOCTRINE, GOD, BIBLE, OR WHATEVER!!!

At the very bare minimum, the price extracted is '... absolute conformity to the doctrine and the advice of the leadership (those would be your apologetic bible mentors 'Feral')...'

Hence, the follower is made loyal to the religion which has relieved him of that guilt and shame, and a true-believer and often zealous advocate is born.

Isn't the fundamentalist 'sin' clearer now 'Feral'!?!?!?

Do you feel ready to correct your ways?!?!!

Or at the very least, TO STOP FROM, PROSELYTIZING ON THE FORUMS?!?!?!

'...Is evolution compatible with the bible?...'

Remember??? This was our hostess' initial question.

Many answered in so many words, back in the very first few posts of the FIRST PART of this 'now painfull saga', that there was NO RELATION BETWEEN THE 2 SUBJECTS; bible belongs to faith, and Evolution belongs to science.

FAITH has NO SAY in SCIENCE,
and
SCIENCE HAS NO SAY IN FAITH!!!

Simple. Straight foward, the hostess posed a NON-QUESTION!!! The thread should have died withtin 2 to 3 posts. BUT NOOOOOOO!!! This senseless egocentric thread seems to have no end in sight!

HOW IS THAT??? WHAT CAUSES A CLEAR NON-QUESTION, NON-DEBATE, NON-EXCHANGE, TO GO ON FOR SOOOOO LONG?!?!?!

If the question were a mathematical equation, it would be simple: IT SQUARELY DOESN'T BALANCE!!! 1+3 DOESN'T EQUAL 2!!! Not complicated 'Feral'. Go back to your desk and work it out for yourself, and let's all put an end to this 'thousand postings' of human idiocy.

Of course, I wouldn't dare hope that you would understand, much less agree with that observation 'Feral', so I ask to all of us,

... WHAT, OR WHO IS AT THE SOURCE OF THIS SPIRITUAL, EMOTIONAL AND INTELLECTUAL CALAMITY THAT IS EATING AWAY AT EVERY POSSIBLE CONSTRUCTIVE EXCHANGE?!?!?

Well, I propose to you all, that the VIRUS, if you will; the 'life eating' bacteria, which spreads the contamination of otherwise healthy neurones, is none other than FUNDAMENTALISM, and the FUNDAMENTALISTS whom practice it through obsessive/compulsive PROSELYTIZING!!!

You see 'Feral', much like you might apply it to homosexuals, I say it is not YOU the sinner, but rather the 'FUNDAMENTALIST-PROSELYTIZING' LIFESTYLE YOU HAVE ADOPTED THAT IS PROFOUNDLY DESTRUCTIVE.

Here is the FIRST DESTRUCTIVE ASPECT about your fundamentalist-proselytizing ways 'feral':

1 - HOW FUNDAMENTALISM PROMOTES (proselytizes) IGNORANCE!!!

Fundamentalism almost invariably has a problem with science. That part of science which doesn't fit perfectly with fundamentalist dogma.

Science is the process of starting with the evidence and proceeding to the conclusion that best fits the evidence, regardless of what that conclusion may be.

Fundamentalism, on the other hand, starts with a conclusion and searches for evidence to support that conclusion. Not the practice of 'honest' believers! Not the practice of the overwhelming majority of christians! But the practice of a 'handfull' of 'LOUD' and 'OBSESSIVE' Fundamentalist-proselytizers!!! THOSE WHOM ARE DELUSIONALLY CONVINCED THEY HAVE THE TRUTH!!!

Anyone who has ever been wrong knows that the latter is no way to find the truth, because it presumes the searcher has the truth to begin with, which of course may or may not be the case.

But this doesn't stop the fundamentalist; the very premise of fundamentalism presumes to start with the truth, and all the fundamentalist lacks is evidence. This false science has even become an industry in such organizations as the Institute for Creation Science, the Family Research Council, etc. There are many other examples, and from many religions besides just Christianity.

This can most clearly be seen in the Christian fundamentalist's hard-core, bedrock belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. While there are numerous contradictions, obvious errors and serious problems with doctrine in the Bible, the Christian fundamentalist simply ignores them at worst, and applies tortured, twisted logic in an effort to explain them at best. But in the final analysis, the Bible speaks for itself, and anyone who takes the time to seriously study it will be impressed at how many irreconcilable problems MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO TREAT THE BOOK AS THOUGH IT WAS 'WITHOUT ERROR'there are with the Bible.

How can the fundamentalist read the Bible and ignore the irreconcilable contradictions?

It is done by compartmentalized thinking, a thought technique that allows two or more contradictory facts to inhabit the mind at the same time in peace and without conflict.
Yet when the contradiction is directly pointed out to the fundamentalist, the reaction is to claim that such an argument is "one of Satan's traps." It really isn't, of course, it's just truth coming to call. But the notion that such nagging thoughts are the devil's tools are the way the inerrantist maintains peace in his mind.

Should you agree with the madness of your ways 'Feral', and seek to correct your obsessive-compulsive sins, I have other destructive aspects of your fundamentalist-proselytizing ways that I would be happy to share with you.

In time, I trust you will become responsible for your own acts, connect genuinely with the people with whom you exchange, rather than dogmatically proselytize to them or ignore them outright, and just be a freer and happier christian through the whole process!!!

Here's to HOPE!!!

I GUESS YOU JUST CAN'T SHAKE THAT DELUSIONAL AND SOLDIERING PROSELYTIZER IN YOU FERAL!!!

It is against the rules, but you don't care about rules, after all the only rules you follow are the rules of that 'god' you speak to PERSONALLY!!!