ummmm....raises hand in the corner ...

If nothing is separate ... then aren't free will and God's will one and the same?

Yep.

I must agree. As long as this such free will is not confused with libertinage.

I have said this before and I have read a book called "Power of Will"

The Will is the power of self direction. All Will is Free. It simply take conscious thought to use it.

Most decisions are automatic, reactive, programmed, etc. But a conscious decision, made with full awareness of the consequences, and accepting those consequences no matter what they are..... is the Will in action.

JB

JB:

Free from what?

Influence?

Not on your life...

Creative: Will is just Will. It is used or it is not used. It is the POWER of self direction.

You have the power to direct yourself. (You have the power to be influenced by a thing, or decide not to be.)

Or at the very least, you decide what you will allow yourself to be influenced by. You make the choice, but only IF YOU ARE CONSCIOUS OF IT.

If you are influenced, but don't realize it, you are unconscious of the influence.

Exercising the Will requires that you become conscious (Aware) of influences and make more informed choices.

But it is less about common everyday choices, an more about self direction. Getting yourself to do what you decide you want to do, or getting yourself to put your attention on something consciously rather than by default.

It is being cause rather than effect.

JB

I absolutely agree with your suggestions...



Will is influenced...undoubtedly so, most often subconsciously...until...

One is able to conceive of the notion that we do have some control over what we accept as truth...

However, that also is completely influenced by that which has already been accepted...

Switching is just consciously switching influence...

Which in and of itself is completely dependant upon the influence of recognition...

It is still an affect of one's recognizing the possibility... no less...

In order for 'God' to answer a prayer which involves depending upon a personal choice of an unbelieving individual to be affected in some way by the powers of 'God', free will would be circumvented by 'Gods' will.

There is no denying this.

Assuming that they are two different things, of course...

So then, if 'God' answers prayers in this way, there cannot be free will in those situations...

I personally do not believe, obviously so, in a free will anyway, but I entertained the notion for the sake of the proposition at hand...

Give me an example of this cause it makes not sense to me. To me it sounds like your saying if someone is sick and dieing and they has God for healing and they receive it then it was God's will, but they didn't have any free will? Free will for what? To heal themselves? They still had free will. They used it to ask for help to do something they couldn't do on their own.

Chaz...

The example has already been provided...

For clarification though, below I will re-post what I just said... underlining the key point...

So, let me see if I understand. If I had a decision to make say, whether or not to ask someone to marry me, (big decision that I would assume some people might pray about)and God responded and told me yes.

I still would need to make the decision myself. The obvious choice is yes if God actually told you lol, but you still have to decide to take his advice.

The only way I can see it as not being free will is if he actually possessed your body and married her and then left your body lol.

Kind of like when God told Abraham to sacrifice Issac. It was Gods will, but Abraham had to decide to listen to God. For those that don't know the story, God stopped Abraham before he killed Issac because it was just a test of faith.

You are failing to provide an accurate parallel Chaz...

You are a believer...

Do you believe that a believer, such as yourself, could get a new job as a result of 'Gods' intervention somehow.

Consider also that the person who hires you is an atheist.

Can 'God' answer your prayer by somehow affecting the choice of the one who makes the decision to hire you?

In order for this to happen, 'God' must do something, whatever it may be, to cause the choice to be made, according to 'Gods' will...

Therefore, in that scenario, the person who decided to choose you.... actually did not have another option if 'God' made it happen...

Ya with me?

God couldnt make him chose me. Now as a believer in this scenario I would say that maybe God could weigh things in your favor. Maybe God can help you be more calm and relaxed in an interview and allow your good qualities to shine through. He will not, however, make the employer pick you. He won't take away someones free will.

I personally don't like it when stuff happens and people say, "it was Gods will." Not necessarily. He allowed it to happen, but that doesn't mean its his will. Thats like saying that since the Holocaust happened it was God's will.

Its just something people say to make themselves feel better.

Does God have a will? - Yes
Can you follow his will - Yes
Will he ever force you to? - NO

Ok....

No argument here...



No prayer answered either...

I agree that there are some things that are decided by the Higher Self they may not be able to be changed by the little self's praying for something else. I believe the Higher intelligence can over ride any creating attempted by the little self. This is actually a good thing

The reason it is a good thing, is that to worry about something is to pray for it to happen. You picture a bad car accident enough times, you imprint that image upon formless substance and it begins to manifest. These are prayers. Worrying is a prayer.

When you pray, you MUST picture a safe trip, NOT the accident you are worrying about.

The formless substance does not comprehend NOT. It only sees the picture you give to it. If you give it pictures of a bad car accident, it begins to create the circumstances that will manifest that into your experience.

That is how the law of attraction works. Read "The Law of Attraction" by Esther and Jerry Hick.

Read "The science of Getting Rich" by Wallace D. Wattles.

Read: "Think and grow Rich" Read: "Creative Visualization" There are many many books that talk about how this principle works.

Read: "Ask and it is Given" Esther and Jerry Hicks.

These books will tell you how to ask and how NOT to ask.

JB

JB

Jeannie,

I am quite familiar with that concept, it too has it's problems which necessitate a notion of separate...

My mother always worried terribly, but some other factor affected the manifestation, perhaps her belief in her prayer(s) to 'God'? If this had not been the case, I would have been dead every time I was late coming home as a youth...

Within your belief system, as expressed by your writing(s), there lies certain factors which still necessitate the need for a notion of separate...

This particular thread was started as a means to logically discuss the separate notions of both, 'Gods' will and man's free will... Moreover, how they must necessarily affect one another on certain occasions, like the commonly held belief(s) of 'God' answering prayers.

The option that you have presented implies manifestion of individual thought and feelings... if two different people hold two different thoughts about the same scenario... which prevails?

Creative Soul.....God did NOT force the atheist boss to hire the man.
The atheist boss STILL had a FREE WILL in making the decision, in whom he would hire..

But, Perhaps the atheist boss was somehow more impressed by the man he did hire, than with the other?


Btw.....God can and will move on behalf of one's faith...and may even give Favor sometimes.
But Still, it is man who does the decision making and hiring, not God.
God did not create Man to be a robot.


Creative Soul..... if a man plugs into God's power source(which is what praying in faith and beleiving is), God WILL honor that man's Faith ..and God's power source will surely flow....simply cause the man was praying and believing with FAITH...and it was his FAITH that PLUGGED him into God's power in the first place..
And btw...God's power is always on... one just has to plug into the source.

AND..God WILL HONOR one's FAITH and MOVE on that person's behalf.....and can even impress upon the heart of man.....but God still does NOT make the decision for man.......MAN does the decision making.

So....Creative Soul...pertaining to that job situation again....

perhaps one man who has free will ,just asked for the job but did not have FAITH to BELIEVE for the job.

The other man , however,who also has free will, asked for the job.... but also had FAITH to BELIEVE he would RECIEVE..and God HAD to honor that man's faith..cause God SAID in His Word He WOULD HONOR HIS WORD AND WATCH OVER HIS WORD TO PERFORM IT.....AND GOD CAN'T GO AGAINST HIS WORD NOW ...CAN HE !!

In other words....

IF MAN IS APPLYING GOD'S WORD TO HIS LIFE ...AND BELIEVING BY FAITH, GOD IS GOING TO STEP IN AND HONOR THAY MAN'S FAITH NOW!!
See?

God couldn't go against that man's faith now, could he....
so he HONORED that man's faith....and somehow may have EVEN IMPRESSED on the heart of the boss, to hire him.

But STILL....even though God can give FAVOR ....and might even IMPRESS on the heart of a boss, , the boss STILL is the one who hires.....and makes the decision...not God.

ps....

...while we are on the subject of Faith here........ there is a BIG difference between FAITH...versus just naming it and claiming it...or plain and simple... walking in FOOLISHNESS.

( more on subject for a later time...)

MorningSong,

I understand what it is that you are attempting to claim... you are failing to recognize the obvious in your claim...

If what you have described is indeed the case, then 'God' had nothing to do with the man getting the job...

If the job was, in fact, obtained by 'God' answering the prayer of a faithful person then that necessitates the fact that 'God' had something to do with it. No matter what the affect was... it was the influence which determined the outcome of the man's choice.

Take 'God' away... a different choice is made...

Point made?

Simplified.....

God gives man a free will....

Man can CHOOSE to PLUG into God's power source...or man can choose NOT to plug into God's power source.

Man STILL has FREE WILL to CHOOSE.

Now, if a man DOES CHOOSE to plug into God's Powerful source?
He will see the Power of God flowing in his life.

But if man Does NOT CHOOSE to plug into God's powerful source?


Well...how can man see power flowing, if man doesn't plug in?

But again...God is NOT going to force man to plug in...God will NEVER go against man's FREE WILL....to CHOOSE.
flowerforyou: