Spider,

I don't have an Isaiah in front of me, but this is pretty much the same type of discussion we had here:

http://www.justsayhi.com/topic/show/58635?page=3

about a quote from Genesis and if you look at page 4 there I also explained a quote from the Psalms as well.

There are any number of reasons why people attain Power within a society. But as long as society ALLOWS that power to be in charge, that power will manipulate "the people" in any way necessary to maintain their station.

Got that?

So when "the Power" is loosing ground (literally)and the resources (the greed aspect) that go along with that ground including human resources (required to maintian "Power") then "the Power" will go to war.

It is the misleading and minsinformative information presented as propaganda to "the people" by "the Power" that maniplates and coherses the masses to FIGHT.

The GREATEST most effective propaganda ever used and STILL USED TODAY is the Religious trump card.

Consider the bias in the words of Americans today with whom you discuss the current 'war'. Have you ever discussed this war with everyday people and NOT been led to religious disciminations and bigotry? How many times I have heard comments about the 'horrors' that people in the mid-east face at the oppressive hands of outrageous religious beliefs. Must be reason enought to slaughter other humans, it's reason enough to Hate, isn't it.

So the answer to the objections and questions raised in this thread are not one thing or another it can only be a combination.

It is "the Powers" wanting more to lord over, or in fear of loosing that which is already in their control, who set the stage for war.

BUT - it is the masses of people who are so WILLING to fight for the concept that 'theirs' is the only 'good' 'true' religion, that does all the damage.

Consider, how many Americans or Canadians or other "PEOPLE" would be willing, today, to do battle with a neighboring country to gain MORE? To protect their land and those they love ABSOLUTELY, but not to gain more. There is no point.

Now, consider, how many of these same people will fight a war if they believe religious fronts threaten their own system of beliefs?

War is fought by PEOPLE and PEOPLE only fight when threatened, or for survival.. and unfortunately PEOPLE will fight for the survival of their religious beliefs.

Until the day comes when religion is TRUELY personal, people will be easily manipulated to slaughter those they think threaten the survival of their religion.

So no matter what power determines when and which war to fight, it MUST be the PEOPLE who fight it. And almost every major war manipulated the people into fighting by using religion.

This is why and how we can say that Religion is the Greatest single cause of wars.

Redykeulous,

I am a deeply religious person and there is no person or persons who can convince me to hurt another person other than in self defense or defense of others.

People like to repeat that religious people don't think for ourselves - that is utter nonsense. Every stereotype has its truths and falsehoods. Some people, religious or not, go with the crowd and do what everybody else is doing. Others are independent thinkers.

I would say among liberal thinkers political correctness is just as much a mindless path of following what the people in power say - regardless of how much logical sense it makes. Other liberals are truly independent thinkers.

Stereotypes are ultimately not true because people are individuals in every walk of life.

I am not sure how the war in Iraq fits into this discussion, but its a fact that Saddam killed between 500,000 to 1 million people in his lifetime. What would it say about us if we turned our back and said, "Hey its not our problem."

One of my favorite bumper stickers is "Hey why should we care, Saddam only kills his own people."

Sure we made mistakes and sure we didn't always make the best presentations about our reasons for going to war. But the bottom line is that in the greater scheme of things removing Saddam from power is a great thing for mankind.

Gnostics don't, not to many of my fellow shamanic cchristians do either. We're in a minority but we're here;^]

TO PreciousLife:

Well, I never wrote "evil", but I'll reexamine those passages. I'm not sure how the eradication of men, women, children, infants, sucklings, and at times, livestock is "warranted". And I'm not sure how killing everyone, sparing virgin girls, and making them slaves is "warranted" either, but I'll definitely keep an open mind. I might not be as learned as you on the subject, so please enlighten me and the rest of the forum.

That's an interesting comment about the USA and Germany. Perhaps you should study the subject of red herrings and straw man arguments while I'm rereading those Bible passages.



EDIT:

Hi, Creative

That doesn't work. I guess you could explain "us" and "we" as God talking to the angels...if you believe that God needs advice or help from angels. But "The King of Israel" and "his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts" are saying "I", not "we". Two beings speaking as one. As if they act as one God, which is described in the New Testament. It also clearly explains the creation of mankind and the Tower of Babel incident. Jesus is consulting with God, rather than God consulting with his creations for advice and help.

In response to PreciousLife:

I find it insanely ignorant by sheer will for anyone to claim that mass murder of innocent women and children has been warranted or justified...

Do you believe that 'God' is all-knowing, all-loving, all-good, and all-powerful?

Sure... people deserved to die... at God's 'hands'...And you claim that you are peaceful huh?

Precious, it is my opinion that the personification of 'God' is the greatest detriment to the essence of 'God'...

I find it quite curious that you use "G-d" to name 'God'...

Reminds me of Spinoza... which I would guess you are not a believer in his thoughts...

The God of the Bible does not exist as is believed... that is individual man... acting as if he was 'God'...

The taught concept of the Bible being the only divinely inspired words of 'God' has had disastrous affects on mankind. Judgementalness is created within those teachings...perpetuated, condoned, supported and rewarded. They are thief teachings, stealing one from the spirit that lies within us all...

I do not recognize your 'God' as anything other than the mirror of the author and believer of the words...

Again, I suggest you be the one to read up on just how much love your God showed in the Old Testament...

Reply to PreciousLife:


Then yours must be a very personal religion. And your beliefs must give you the strength to survive with your beliefs in tact, in any society, even those in which you must HIDE those beliefs. But would you hide them? or like the Jews of Germany would you be prepared to sew the cloth of condemnation upon your sleeve and those of your family, and suffer the consequences without a fight? Or perhaps you think others would fight for you? You seem to think we should fight for others who are being destroyed. But you would not. Why should anyone try to save you, if you are not willing to save yourself?


The piece of cloth you wear on your sleeve does not distinguish you from any others who wear it. (not to the minds of those seeking to destroy in the name of that cloth or one of a different color). Therefore, I do no distinguish because you would wear the cloth with full knowledge of all that it implies. Therefore, there is no defense for you, in a war that includes the color cloth you wear.


I would agree with you, I MUST agree with you, I am among the clan of those so typed by those of Religious beliefs. But one of you and one of me versus the millions that have caused the stereotype to exist, are not enough to make mention of. Those like you who would do no harm, are not likely to be the ones to remain when the battle is done. (sad)


We did turn our backs. That has nothing to do with why we are in Iraq. What’s more we have turned our back on Darfur, and THEY asked for our help, face to face, and our President acknowledged them. But they are not on the agenda, not then, not today.


If you really think this was our motivation and our purpose, then why are we still there?

Cuzimwhiteboy and also in response to some of what Creative wrote,

Before we make judgments lets first understand the historical context of what was happening at that time. The Israelites just went through 210 years of slavery in Egypt. Finally after much struggle and incredible miracles they defeated their captors, the mighty Egyptian army and escaped into the desert.

They just wanted one thing - to peacefully travel to Israel and live in the land promised to them By G-d.

Amalek was the first nation after the entire world heard about the miracles in Egypt and after G-d for the first time publicly made Himself known to an entire nation at Sinai - Amalek attacked.

"The eternal struggle against Amalek. Amalek's enmity against Israel stems not only from its legacy as the grandson of Esau, but from what his nation represents. The evil prophet Bilaam referred to Amalek as the first among nations (numbers 24:20), which means that Amalek is the leading force of evil, just as Israel is the leading force of good. Consequently, the struggle of Israel and Amalek is the eternal struggle of good versus evil.

...This passage outlines the first confrontation between Israel and Amalek, and it shows Amalek's treachery in launching an unprovoked sneak attack. As descendants of Esau, the Amalekites knew the boundaries of the land that had been promised to the offspring of Jacob. They knew they had no rational cause to attack, for their land was not endangered, either then or later. Nor had there been any prior battle between the two nations. There were only two reasons for the sneak attack: Amalek wished to show its brazen denial of G-d and His power, and it was carrying on the ancient legacy of Esau's hatred for Jacob (Malbim)."

This might be hard to understand but there is an evil in the world that hates Jews and Judaism because they are living witnesses to G-d's existence. This hatred has carried down through the ages, from the crusades, to the Spanish inquisition to the blood libels to the massacres during the black plague, to the pogroms of the Cossacks to the genocidal eradication of the Nazis to the Arab attacks on Israel to Al Quida today. I haven't even listed a quarter of the peoples who have tried to destroy the Jewish nation - the Greeks, the Romans, Haman in Persia on and on the list goes.

Amalek opened the floodgates. After them it was nation after nation that attacked us.

Numbers 21:21

"Israel sent emissaries to Sihon, king of the Amorite, saying, "Let me pass through your land; we shall not turn off to field or vineyard; we shall not drink well water; on the king's road shall we travel, until we pass through your border."

But Sihon did not permit Israel to pass through his border, and Sihon assembled his entire people and went out against Israel to the Wilderness. He arrived at Jahaz and waged war against Israel. Israel smote him with the edge of the sword and took possession of his land...

Numbers 21:33

...Og, king of Bashan, went out against them, he and his entire people, to do battle at Edrei. G-d said to Moses, "Do not fear him, for into your hand have I given him, his entire people, and his land; you shall do to him as you did to Sihon, king of the Amorites, who dwells in Heshbon. They smote him, his sons, and all his people, until there was no survivor left of him, and they took possession of his land."

Given the context of this historical hatred that lasts till today and the level of constant unprovoked attack - think Nazis and Al Quida then its pretty clear that G-d is in fact incredibly merciful and a G-d of Justice and righteousness.

When will people learn? Stop messing with us! ;-)

Turtlepoet78,

Thanks for the tips. I will have to do some research on the Gnostics and shamanic Christians. Sounds really interesting! ;-)

Redykeulous,

You wrote:

"or like the Jews of Germany would you be prepared to sew the cloth of condemnation upon your sleeve and those of your family, and suffer the consequences without a fight? Or perhaps you think others would fight for you? You seem to think we should fight for others who are being destroyed. But you would not. Why should anyone try to save you, if you are not willing to save yourself?"

Did you read my qoute that you were responding to? I clearly wrote that I would fight in self-defense or in defense of others. So I am not sure what you mean.

QUOTE:
"I am a deeply religious person and there is no person or persons who can convince me to hurt another person other than in self defense or defense of others."

You wrote:

"Those like you who would do no harm, are not likely to be the ones to remain when the battle is done. (sad)"

I disagree. I belive that good will always ultimatly win. Check out history, every time a major evil movement arose they were ultimatly defeated. And me and my people who "wear the cloth" (whatever that means) are still here.

You wrote:

"We did turn our backs. That has nothing to do with why we are in Iraq. What’s more we have turned our back on Darfur, and THEY asked for our help, face to face, and our President acknowledged them. But they are not on the agenda, not then, not today."

This is a complete different discussion, but I just can't resist. How did we turn our backs on Iraq? They were led by a cruel dictator who killed a half million to 1 million people. Saddam is no longer killing anybody ONLY because the United States intervened.

We can argue and disagree what our motivation was. But you can not argue with the fact that ultimatly whatever our motivation was - it was a real GOOD thing that we did by invading Iraq - particularly for the Iraqi people in the long term.

I think if we are able we should go to the aid of any nation that is being bullied and destroyed by dictators or other forces. My big question is if we send in troops to Dafur and 5000 or more brave American soliders come home in body bags will you react the same way liberals do about Iraq? Why are the suffering people of Darfur more then the suffering people of Iraq were under Saddam? I think they are equally worthy of having someone help them. Unfourtunatly right now we are overburdened between Afganistan and Iraq. Where is the rest of the world? If the USA is so evil, why arent the French or the Germans rushing into Darfur???

The fact is that the US has done more for world peace and stability then any other nation. Think about what we did in WW2. We have our faults, but I think its disgraceful the way liberals and some people around the world don't appreciate the sacrifices we have made in blood and money to make the world a more just and better place. (Check out Panama without Norega.) Again we are not perfect, but show me one nation in the world who has done more???

You wrote,

"If you really think this was our motivation and our purpose, then why are we still there?"

Because it would be the utmost cowardice to walk away and leave the Iraqi's defenseless from their enemies - Al Quaida, Iran, and the many terrorists and bombers who don't think twice about blowing up innocent men, women, and children. I just can't understand where is the humanitarian caring for the Iraqis??? How can we abandon them???

War is tough and difficult and we are paying a terrible price from our solider's. But the cause is incredibly noble.