Ok...

Back to the ethical standpoint...

How do we approach the solution of an overall acceptable ethical standard which promotes pursuit of happiness, the future of our country, the well being and personal choice of all responsible and law-abiding members of society without discourse?

What are the most important aspects?

tolerance and freedom of religion.

Take the focus off religion, any religion.... and tolerate every religion that causes no harm to any or all.

Acceptance of the differences, no matter whom it is.

You guys pickin' on me?



Yes... freedom of religion!!!

Or the lack thereof!

EDIT:

Oh yeah... 'praise Joe'

actually i think we really BELIEVE it! what could be better for the development of ethical thought and standards than acceptance and study of those developed by all cultures and religions with complete tolerance and without any prejudice while allowing everyone to pursue their own religion freely and without coercion?

What you are asking, Creative is no simple feat to address.

In a country were poverty is the normal existence of those who seek only to fulfill the daily "requirements" to survive, it might be as simple as eliminating a single 'intolerance'.

This is not the way of life, those in this forum, are addressing.

Consider, all the things that within the grasp of all those we come contact with every day. Do we not 'want' what they have?

What is 'peer pressure'? Do the kids not envy others for, do they not scorn the have nots?

Does that change in the minds of people as they become adults?

Religion and belief systems are certainly a LARGE issue. But in an existence where one is 'competing' for the luxuries and the creature comforts and the 'toys' that are there for the having, that one fix will not make that big a difference.

Wars fought for power, will still exist, bias and oppression will still exist. The fast track and the fall backs and the poverty, will still exist.

So I suggest if you continue this conversation you narrow it down to a few issues at best - but you will only be covering a very small percentage.

Perhaps beginng a list of what we see as the largest issues, might be the first order of your question.

This is to perfect redy.....Are you saying that because I know that all the toys and all the wealth will not follow me into heaven that I then have a grasp of ethics in relation to me. Are you also saying that I don't just watch the horrible things of this world I do something about them. Does that mean again that I am following the path that I have set for me....Or that God set for me.......Because in all honesty none of this happen until I came to the Lord.

How does one relate the importance of the notion of empathy...

Altruistic empathy without hurting one's self?

What if all were taught to be givers rather than most being taught to be takers?

A huge task...

I can only speak for myself of course.....But I always think of others first.....It's just me.....I also will go out of my way for someone and honestly anyone. I have even gotten in trouble from my husband for doing this....as he says, "Thats a stranger you let in your car", they could of killed you...But I don't look at it that way....Someone needs help....I help them. I know I will be looked after so I don't worry about it. I think that I have always felt that treat people as you would want them to treat you.....If someone is short money at the store...I give it to them....no ulterior motive at all.....I just know that one day it will come back to me 10 fold....no brainer.

And shame on those parents that don't teach their children to be givers rather then takers....Both of my girls are just like me.....maybe not as extreme....But I know the last few Christmas's they wanted all the toys that would go to them and even the dinner to go to a family in need.....It wasn't because of anything other then someone needed it more then them.....and yes it made me cry.....

I remember once my older daughter who just didn't get why I did the things I did for the Women's Club....One day we found a dog.....and after much searching we found the owner who was crying and so happy to see her baby. My daughter got in the car to go to school and looked at me with tears welling up in her eyes, and said, "Mom I know why you do what you do no." I don't think I have ever been more proud of my daughter ever. She got it....and not from me but from actually doing...it's a beautiful thing....

Creative wrote:


Altruistic empathy (without harm to one's self). I always feel like I'm being argumentative, but the way I see it, this is only part of the equation. So if you don't mind I would like to answer your post by rephrasing the question.

- What is the importance of the notion of Altuistic empathy, without harm to either, the self or other/s?

A person with dependents can not view this question with regards to self only. A person, who NEEDS the experience of being without, or finding thier own way....etc, may not benefit at all from such a empathetic strategy.

Therefore, the answer is probably not one you are expecting.

Altruistic, by nature, is the abiltiy to give "even if it hurts". Empathy, by definition, is the ability to project or to perceive the emothions of others.

Just because we percieve that one is in need, does not mean that Altruism needs to dominate. What needs to dominate, is the ability to wisely, logically, and OFTEN, without 'emotion' to assess the situation before making determinations.

Example: If I see someone in need of food, do I give them all my food, knowing that tomorrow I can get more for myself?
And what if I come accross several who are in need of the food I just gave away?

So instead of giving all my food away, perhaps it would have been wiser to invite the person to 'share' my food at my place. On the way home, we would have seen the others.

The wise man, might gather them all together and say;
I have a big pot and I have a piece of meat, can you help to make some stew?

Those in need are not always destitute, and they are not always in need of intellect. Between us all, we may have come up with enough resources to make a stew big enough to feed us all for several days, or maybe just one day at a time.

But no one will have been the worse from the day before, and all will have had one day that they shared a meal, community and more importantly, all have gained confidence as they have fended for themselves (together). Learned that together, there are more resources than we might find for ourselves.

This is how the notion of Altruistic Empathy shapes in my reality.

As far as being givers rather than takers, I have to say Creative, it's not how much we give, it's what we give and the wisdom we use when sharing the gifts that are the important part of the equation.

Money has value in 'providing for' and it is necessary. But it is a quick fix to an immediate problem. Giving of ones' self, has the possibility of a positive affect on people for a lifetime.

The question is, how do we open minds to evaluate more than what surrounds us, and if we can do that how do we give one the desire to take action, and the wisdom to take right actions?

Ah Di:

Always honing my senses...

I will not disagree with what you have proposed. You have extrapolated quite succinctly...

Yes, I frequent the land of 'outside the box'...

You propose an interesting and complicated question which has an equally complex set of solutions...

I have no idea!!!

What do you think?

I say follow your heart......It's like you can give someone some corn to get them through a week....or you can teach them to plant and care for it....and they have it always..

Oh Di.........I would have expected no less from you. My basic reality is much the same as yours. You just have a much more eloquent way of putting it than me.

I applaud your sensitivities. Your mind...your "YOU" of you.

Kat

my quote:


Creative:


Ferel suggests that people should follow their heart.

Please don't take offence, Ferel, but your idea would suggest that the heart dictates the actions of a person. Even if one believes that, it is not logical to 'assume' that all hearts would direct thoughtful actions by the owner.

People often relate emotions to the heart. But the heart is not where thought occurs. It is not where we deal with emotions. Though others may think differently, in my opinion, the heart is merely an ogran, incapable of anything more relavent than as a supportive mechanism to the functioning of the body.

It is the mind and how it is 'taught' to function that enables logic to intercede when emotion forces it into action.

The way I see it, there is only one way to impart 'logic' so that the vast majority can be trusted to use it, most of the time.

We must 'interact', pretty consistantly, with those who utylize logic in the majority of their daily functions. Furthermore, those people must be kind enough and patient enough to explain their wisdom in the hopes that others will find respect for and a desire to become more logical.

We do not live in a world that this is likely to occur on any major scale, at least within the adult community.

Therefor, the only hope of achieving any logical value of altruistic empathy lies within the framework of our childrens education system. Therein lies the masses of adults of tomorrow.

Adults never cease to wonder at the pure and innocent wisdom of a child. If there is an adult who lives and has not learned, something, from a child, they will never be capable of becoming the kind of person, we would all hope, would rue the day.

There will always be those who will not learn, there will always be times when logic is dismissed, but if we teach the attributes of a logical thought process, through philosophy, with patience, with an ever present eye on the individual needs (of the student) the human race has a chance to become a brotherhood, without boundaries.

As you can see, I have no faith that any majority of adults, today, will change. I do believe, however, that humanity can be changed, but it will not be the generation of adults today that make that change. We can only herald it, inspire it, fight for it, damand it of our schools.

We can not continue to produce mechanical politicians whose views can be swayed, with not thought to integrity, by the fear of loosing a vastly overrated livlihood and pension.

Our only hope as a 'global' community is for the children of the world to take that next leap in evolutionary thought. We must teach them the values that will lead to a more peaceful integration as a human community.

We must teach logic and the value it serves when applied with an 'altruistic empathetic' ideal.

I see this as generations in the making and in that time there will be many wars, civil and on a global scale. There will be much suffering, but this must be, it is how we will deconstruct the past. There must be broader links that bind and combine countries, and those in power must be drastically reduced.

Then will the new powers be more likely to find peaceful solutions and agreements. At that time, if there is only one country whose education system can be help up as a model to be respected and desired, it will be more likely to be immitated.

Creative, those who fight for a life to come, knowing they will not be a part of it, are the most altruistic of all. For in their empathy, they give of their time and money, for the benefit of future generations. Those who will die of a disease, but spend countless hours raising awareness and support for research are part of this calculation.

Altruism exists, empathy drives it, but it is rarely a value seen, until 'experience' forces us to view it logically. That experience can be 'given' to children, through years of guidance in a controled teaching environment. We have thier years in our grasp, it is mandatory in this country that kids attend school. Yet we utilize it not.

I do say follow your heart.....this is correct.......
I don't mean that in a literal sense. Of course it is much more then that. I know that the holy spirit is within me...and therefore it's a no brainer to live as such.

And yes redy you are correct that it comes from a decision to do so. But then again if you are given enough time and don't just follow your heart so to speak....Then 90% of the time you would not do it. When I see someone in need I just do...I don't think about it...And I do this because this is the right thing to do...And it's what God wants me to do. Now don't take that the wrong way.......Because God expects this of us....doesn't mean that is the sole reason I do it...It is not....I do it because I know in my heart that it a good, loving thing to do. I also don't let accolades lead me to do anything.....That is not the purpose of me being on this planet. I think if people would take out the me, myself, and I factor. And that is a biggie......no one is going to be led to do out of love....if the me, myself, and I factor is there.

And your right again.....the heart is an organ that sustains our life. And I also believe that when good is done....that feeling you get is also the heart....the warm fuzzies we will call them. And these warm fuzzies are felt in your heart, and to the depths of your soul...not your brain.

I also think anyone who thinks to much will not ever experience either or. If your asked to give anything...and you think to much about it.....90% of the time you will talk yourself out of it.

Life should never be a logical equation....it takes the fun out of it. We should as Christ said, think and act like the children......their innocence is what make them so beautiful.....They don't think when they say things...they just say it....and damn the adult that can't take the truth. When a child does anything its for the pure love of doing it...And more adults should look at it like that.

I also know to the depths of my being that yes we can learn from the children....But the parent needs to be the structure and the comfort zone for their kids. Where they can go when anything upsets or troubles them. Where they can communicate with open hearts their frustrations, and any thoughts of the world around them. And the most important thing is to never never lie to them about anything. But also just important is to let them find what is right for them. Because I am a Christian does in no way make my girls Christians....they can be and do whatever it is that is right for them.

If people on this planet would learn to do with always receiving something in return this planet would totally be a better place. Is it logical to think this could happen......Probably not...but that doesn't mean that by example that people can't learn from people that have already learned this.