En as for maturity, well...that is a broad topic.
Chemical changes in the body, rote learning, emotional growth, experience...many things go into maturity so it is not the concreteness we are trying to find here.

Maturity is a concept to me Di...

The capability of maturity being actualized is indeed contingient upon environmental influence(s), but is only realized independantly of any single environmental comparison and/or influence...

Maturity happens only with new exposure(s) via an internal comparison of that which does not 'agree' with what one 'knows'... an internal comparitive value assessment...

Maturity comes only as a product of one's own internal assessment of what one has been exposed to, and is a reflection of one when compared to themself. It is a self contained concept, affected by environment. It cannot be taught.

Hmm...we could have an interesting conversation on this. I cannot say I entirely agree with you. It is not that boxed. When I have a little more time, would be interesting to delve into.

Passie:

Anyone is welcome to participate...

I absolutely agree that it is not a 'boxed' concept... other than being compartmentalized into one.

Being an antecedant of things to be presented later in my thesis, it is important that all who participate in the debate to agree on it's 'definition', which is the goal of the thread at this point in time... or at least the notion that it cannot be 'taught'...

Thanks for joining in Passie - will look forward to what you have to present.

Creative - I think I'm beginning to understand your perspective and also how it is fitting into your, basic, overall belief.

The way I see your perspective in this matter, is that maturity, is the philisophical term you are giving to ones' own "enlighenment".

The internal nature of a being, before, the limitations of 'current' standards of morals/ethics have been instilled. (taught)

("We don't do that, it's not fair") is a typical 'lesson' that must be 'expereinced' and then compared to the 'internal' untouched nature.

This nature when allowed to grow and 'mature' from a 'sound base' will identify with the connectedness of itself to everything else and will thus act in harmony with All that Is. Because the All that Is, includes the self.

Do I get it? I hope so, or maybe I'm just agreeing with my own self!?

I love ya Di....

We are very close to an understanding...

I will be able to address this further later tonight or tomorrow...

We will come to a mutual understanding, I am confident...

Carry on if you like, I will address what I can asap...

To all participating, this is indeed a complex topic, which has tested my own deductive reasoning skills and or abilities...

The term maturity is indeed an ambiguous term. The purpose of this analysis is to establish a stipulative definition, which contradicts the most commonly accepted understanding(s) of the term. Acceptances which I am determined to dissolve.

My claim is that maturity is the product of an internal dynamic mechanism/process born of need.

Some of it's components are indeed 'learned' and promote the actualization within one, but it cannot be taught.

It is not an outsider's measure of another's assumed 'wisdom' being behaviourally displayed and held in comparison with peers or any other person. Although the displayed use of accepted practical reasoning skills(wisdom) within a group often leads to the definition of one's behaviour as 'mature' or not, it does not and cannot equal maturity, which may grow beyond these measures.

It is the sum of that which has been internalized and equals the affect which exposure has had on one's own personal judgement, reasoning, and logic abilities based on one's own prior acceptances, and can only be truly measured by an internal comparison of the difference(s) in one's reasoning throughout life.

Maturity it is contingient upon many things, direct teaching(s) is merely one of many variables. It is an abacus of sorts, always adjusting the 'scales' according to new internalizations. It does not necessarily conform to what may be expected from anyone other than the person within whom it is being actualized.

I could safely establish the notion that even the individual may or may not be consciously aware of it's continual dynamic within, regardless of it's existence. This alone, disproves the notion that it can be 'taught'.

Monozygotical twins are as close to the same dna structure as two humans can be, and when taught by the same standards, using the exact same methods at the same time, this does not guarantee that either or both will realize maturity equally, nor simultaneously... although they will indeed experience it, regardless of the quality of teaching, as will all at some level.

This continual internal review will happen with everyone. It does in fact, happen with everyone, at the very least, on a subconscious level. One will weigh that which has been internalized against that which they witness from individual exposure, and independantly come to conclusion(s)which may or may not lead up to what another accepts as progress, and will be a direct reflection of the new internalization and it's affect on what was.

Taught ethics and morals run deep within society and the individual, while interconnecting most, if not all, thought(s) and action(s) thus, our behaviour(s) are biased accordingly. The differences of acceptances between individuals and/or groups are irrelevant to my claim. Maturity is not a measure of one against anything other than themself.



Di, You have caused me to think quite critically on this notion... and I thank you!!! Your curious nature of my person is recognized and appreciated.

I hope this completes our bridge of understanding, or at least helps. I will directly address your earlier questions below, in case the material above may not have given clear answers...



You asked:

"The way I see your perspective in this matter, is that maturity, is the philisophical term you are giving to ones' own 'enlightenment'."

>>>>>>> This is not quite so Di. Allow me to explain why I say this...

Although personal 'enlightenment' is also contingient upon many of the same things, it holds religious implication(s) that maturity does not...<<<<<<<



You also asked:

"So at what point is one considered mature? What must they know, or think, or how must they act, in order to be considered 'mature'?

Without an understanding of what you think the word should mean, I can not agree that maturity can not be taught."

>>>>>>> These are all contingient upon the group one belongs to and their accepted practical reasoning practices based upon the groups ethics and morals. It critical to distinguish mature behaviour from maturity. Again allow my to clarify...

The display of what is deemed 'mature' behaviour from a child or an individual may or may not be an indication of maturity. It is quite possibly the case in which 'mature' behaviour very well could be the result of a lack of maturity, moreover a sign of 'blind' conformity.

In the child's case it most probably is only a reflection of what the child has been initially taught and internalized, though it is unlikely that there would be conflicting internalizations very early in life, there will be later in childhood, it is only then that maturity could be actualized.

It is much more likely that the adult has had differing internalization(s) lending credence to the notion of it being more common for maturity to have been actualized within an adult...<<<<<<<

With all due respect Michael, it just sounds to me like you are attempting to define the word maturity with your own personal definition. I’m not sure I fully understand what your criteria is.

For example, you had stated that maturity is quite a personal thing:



This indicates that it’s subjective. If this is the case then any formal absolute definition would be meaningless. Moreover, maturity would be entirely dependent on a person’s own subjectivity thus leaving the topic pretty open to whatever people what it do mean.



Here you are suggesting that everyone will experience maturity. I would argue against this idea on several counts. The first being the obvious case that people die at all ages, therefore for everyone to have experienced maturity would imply that everyone reaches maturity before they die no matter what age they die. I think this would be a bit of a stretch.

My second objection is that even older people may not have realized maturity before they die. But again, it’s hard for me to stay this since I can’t seem to get a handle on how you are defining maturity.

It’s just that I’ve none many elderly people who did not appear to me to have much maturity by my definition of the term. This simply means that, to me, they did not exhibit an ability to think for themselves or even be able to handle their own problems very well. For me, these are signs of maturity.

Otherwise, I’m simply at a loss as to how you are using the word.

Finally, on the concept of teaching maturity, I still hold that maturity can be contagious, based on environment and peer company. In that sense it’s teachable at least via example.

You have stated that behavior does not equate to maturity. This I find difficult to accept because in a very real sense a person’s level of maturity will indeed influence their behavior. Therefore, while maturity may not be behavior itself, it would certainly have an affect on behavior and therefore be displayed by a person’s behavior. Precisely how those behaviors would be judges is of course also subjective.

For example, someone might see a dedication to a dogmatic religion as being a maturity behavior. Whilst other people may actually see an ability to reject dogma in favor of individual free thinking as being maturity behavior. Personally, I wouldn’t put either or those kinds of behavior in the basket of maturity. I would simply say that one behavior is more intelligent than the other.

But intelligence certainly isn’t linked to maturity because there are far too many intelligent people who are clearly immature.

Abra stated:

"With all due respect Michael, it just sounds to me like you are attempting to define the word maturity with your own personal definition..."

>>>>>>> That is EXACTLY what I am doing Abra, the notion itself needs a major reformation, and a more accurate and appropriate definition needs to be understood, I completely understand it's current use as a measure of the observer's own inner acceptances, THAT is a BIG part of the problem...<<<<<<<

Abra stated:

"This indicates that it’s subjective. If this is the case then any formal absolute definition would be meaningless. Moreover, maturity would be entirely dependent on a person’s own subjectivity thus leaving the topic pretty open to whatever people what it do mean."

>>>>>>> Although it is dependant upon environmental influence. The concept itself is entirely contingient upon what one internalizes, which may or may not be what one's 'group' accepts. None-the-less the concept applies to all, with the presumption of one living long enough for it to be actualized, and is not just a measure of 'ought'...

It is the dynamic in process, finding an internal balance between what is learned and what has been already 'known', the effects of which are commonly measured by mistake, using the word 'mature'.

The definition of mature is completely subjective to one's own personal opinion of 'ought'...

The concept of maturity is not... although the commonly held definiton is...

THAT is why it needs reformation...

My friend, it is notmy attempt to define it as anything other than a dynamic concept born of the need to feel loved and may well change into an 'acceptance' tool if the initial need remains unfilled.

It has been my intent to establish that it is not 'taught', but it is indeed contingient upon what has been learned...<<<<<<<



You stated:

"Here you are suggesting that everyone will experience maturity."

>>>>>>> The concept applies to all who live long enough to experience any discreprancy within themselves between what they have known as accepted truth and what is newly learned that constitutes a change in acceptance, whether minor or major...<<<<<<<



And lastly, you stated:

Finally, on the concept of teaching maturity, I still hold that maturity can be contagious, based on environment and peer company. In that sense it’s teachable at least via example.

You have stated that behavior does not equate to maturity. This I find difficult to accept because in a very real sense a person’s level of maturity will indeed influence their behavior. Therefore, while maturity may not be behavior itself, it would certainly have an affect on behavior and therefore be displayed by a person’s behavior. Precisely how those behaviors would be judges is of course also subjective.

>>>>>>> A discreprancy MUST exist Abra for maturity to be actualized...EXAMPLE...

In the case of a 'mature' child at the age of 4, who has been secluded from all outside influence, although socially developed behaviour(s) have indeed been instilled and practiced within a close circle of family and friends. It may be very easy for an outsider to say that he/she has a high level of maturity...

Nothing could be more false...

In this case that child is blindly conforming to what is accepted within that group... and it is no measure of maturity... it is a measure of conformity...<<<<<<<

Well Abra beat me to the punch (ooh bad term, sorry). But his arguments, as usual, are better stated than, I think, mine would have been.

I will continue though from where he left off, or maybe what he left out, (according to me!)

First, it is often the case that philosophers will redefine a word or create a phrase that includes a specified definition, even when the words of the phrase, with traditional definiations may make no sense to the conversation.

So I'm willing to submit to a new idea surrounding an old word, but the word must be able to maintain its integrity with the new idea (definition) thoughout the rhetoric.

In this case, it seems that you are using situations that are predominantly 'subjective' in order to support your idea. But there must be some beginning and or ending qualifiers to keep it from becoming circular.

I used the word enlightenment, but to me the term IS subjective, because enlightenment comes from one's own ability to see beyond the limitations of what is offered within any confining sense of 'realization' or reality. Hense the reason the word is often associated with a 'way of life' rather than a 'belief' extending from any limited dogmatic sense.

But your responce would indicate that maturity can NOT be achieved (if) enlightenment is part of a 'subjective' belief system.

This, to me, is circular, for even though a belief system MAY be based on a seperate, creative, godhead, there can also be exemplary morals and ethics associated within such an individual, as it extends through the experiences of a life, lived though that functional belief system. (in this case your words) "life, lived, experiences" should equate to maturity, yet they do not.

There are other examples of this confusion within your writing, but since this is the most recent, I thought it might make clear why we don't agree - yet!

I have a feeling there is a path you see, that we are not on yet. One thing that is very clear, we all agree that any incident or event that occurs to the senses of two or more individual at the same time, is NEVER internalized by any two people exactly the same way. This is why 'things' affect people in varying ways.

How such witnessing is internalized and 'dealt with' can, in fact, contribute,(or not), to the maturity of an individual. In other words, one can relate to an incident and find some inspiration that leads that person to be a better individual by social and ethical standards, while another one, may only see something depressing and conform it into judgement or bias, and not 'mature' at all.

In this sense, perhaps there is a definition, but as Abra has said, it is clearly subjective and as we all agree, the subjective can not assimilate events for the purpose of maturation, without first having some level of intellect, some background inclusive of 'knowledge' as pertains to the affect of that incident/event on the internal self.

BUT - there is fault already with this idea, at least in one case - Add an extra 21st chromosone to the genetic structure of a human, and you get the most loving, adoring, happy, person - incapable of intellect or great knowledge - but totally free, totally open, totally honest, and totally able to view all humanity without judgement. Perhaps the down syndrom child is truely the most 'mature' among us.

I fear our posts overlapped Di...

I need to wait upon your reading of what I responded to Abra...

I had to go look the word up in a few places to see wtf has you all bent out of shape.

I think I see now.

I found this definition:


Ok, based on this simple (psychological) definition the word maturity would indeed be seen as nothing more than conforming to an expected behavior.

I personally don’t limit my definition of the word to this crippling ideal.

I found the following explanation of maturity which give more details about the types of behaviors that are associate with maturity.



I think we can all agree that people who fly off the deep end and lose control of their very own emotions are definitely immature no matter how old they might physically be. Throwing temper tantrums is definitely a sign of immaturity. Also constantly whining about the way things are and not taking action to change them is also a display of immaturity IMHO.

After all, if maturity doesn’t at least mean the ability to have control of your own emotions then I’m not sure if it would be a very meaningful concept at all.

I think there are some standards that can be put into play when talking about maturity.

On the topic of “teaching” maturity:

Again I would argue that maturity can be taught (but perhaps not forced).

That is to say, that I think it’s possible to teach people to actively look in the mirror and see themselves. If they can realize when they are whining, and losing control of their own composure, then they can actively take steps to work on these things. And by working on them, they can learn to have more self-control and focus. Having self-control and focus is, is in a very real sense, (at least in my mind) the basis of maturity.

Although, having said that, it’s never possible to draw a firm box around these things. We can always grow in maturity and usually that growth is ultimately associated with precisely what we do with our self-control and how we focus it.

Looking around at the pig-sty my cottage has become I’ve just come to the realization that I’m probably the most immature person on planet earth by my own definition of "maturity".

Oh well, I never claimed to be mature anyway so nothing’s been lost.

***rides her unicycle through the thread ... uses her horn to show signs of maturity ... or is it conformity ... ummm .... confused now ...***

really I just wanted to say hi to some friends

Abra, Di ... best of the season to you!


Sorry for playing in your thread creativesoul

Ok Abra...

You have posted an in depth explanation of what maturity can display... some 'good' products of maturity in most people's eyes... Hence... That definition is still subjective to an outsider's opinion of 'ought'...

Not all maturity displays these attributes Abra...

Ok... I believe I need to 'create' a word...

EDIT:

Di...But your response would indicate that maturity can NOT be achieved (if) enlightenment is part of a 'subjective' belief system.

>>>>>>> Not at all Di...not at all. Enlightenment could be a part of one's maturity, it just is not contingient upon it...<<<<<<<

((( Artsy Baby Conformity Gurl )))

Beep beep!

Whooshhhhhhhh ------------------->>------------------->>------------------->>------------------->>------------------->>------------------->>------------------->>------------------->>------------------->>------------------->>

I’m trying out my new supersonic boom for Manwitches.

What do you feed a hunger Manwitch?

A Steak with Bristle Spouts. (that’s a broom pole with straw whiskers )

I’ve been playing my bongos too!

Hey! They aren’t a toy!

They are Holy Drums guaranteed to bring out your spirit.

They work best if you sip a few spirits whilst beating on them too.

Sorry for the interruption in the maturity thread Michael.

I couldn’t control my emotions and had to throw an insanity tantrum.

I’m all better now.

gallops in on foot clapping coconut halves together to make horse galloping noises. waves can of silly string inundating Abra in a pile of multicolored thread confetti. he now resembles a huge pile of tricolor Ramen!!



goes galloping off after the unicycle - i'll find you yet and make a delicious one-wheeled rainbow noodle parade out of you toooo.....

Non-conformists...Ugh! I tell ya!!!

Abra, Di, whomever else chooses to answer...

Proposition...

The label of 'mature' and the most commonly used definition of 'maturity' are both completely subjective based upon the observer's own individual sense of 'ought'...

I believe we all agree here...



So....



IF... 'Johnny' displays 'mature' behaviour within his own group, this would be indicative of maturity, within his group... However, it may or may not be indicative of maturity according to another's opinion.

This possibility is sound, I believe...

However... this cannot disprove that maturity has happened... It only proves the definition to be subjective to the observer's own sense of 'ought'...

This is also sound, I believe...

Therefore... we cannot confirm the existence of maturity by comparison of one's behaviour to another's...

That ONLY leaves what I have said all along... it is a result of an internal comparison or value assessment...

???????

You seem to be getting lost in the common philosopher’s pitfall of trying to think in terms of absolutes. Like as if there exists an absolute state of being called “maturity” that has some reality beyond human subjectivity.

The very term represents a man-made concept, or idealization, of human behavior in comparison with other behavior (i.e. mature versus immature “behavior”). The word was initially meant to convey a concept of relative behavior.

You seem to be wanting to take this idea and transform it into some kind of absolute state of being that is beyond any notion of relative behavior. I think from a pure philosopher’s point of view I can see what you are attempting to do.

With that I’ll give you a quote from a very wise man,…

“"We cannot define anything precisely! If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers, who sit opposite each other, one saying to the other, 'You don't know what you are talking about!' The second one says 'What do you mean by know? What do you mean by talking? What do you mean by you?', and so on." – Richard Feynman

What I would suggest is to make reservations at a nice ski lodge, then call up Arsty Gurl and ask her if she wants to go skiing!

I’m not sure how mature that would be, but the mountain air will clear your head and if you don’t break a leg or get buried in an avalanche it will be good for your health too.