I think the diversions were needed because to have a meaningful and thought-provoking discussion the participants need to understand what they are discussing.
Like you stated, the correct 'terms' need to be aligned.


I like how you put that^^

Mathematical Science tries to explain the "what" and "how" but we need belief to explain the "why".
It kinda goes with what I was trying so ineptly to explain with my robot words above.
Science is more than mathematics tho.
There are economy, psychology and many other sciences that deal with trying to understand the nature of the Universe beyond the mathematical physical Universe. Any behavioral study is an example.

The intent of the OP is to discuss a division of religion and science. It assumes one or the other. Implies a competition.
My take on it implies the opposite, that science and religion are not doing battle for supremacy. That both can exist because they are both needed (in different ways) to understand nature.

We live in a world much warmer than mathematical reality. Our delusions of reality is what creates us as passionate people. Full-on reality would create a robotic machine planet, stark and cold. Star Trek The Motion Picture gave a glimpse to a full-on reality with the V'ger character. The whole point of the film was to merge science with religion, data with passion.

You make a good point.
However, Religion seeks to "Prove" nothing. Religion gives you the answer and asks for your "Faith" that it needs no proof. It needs you to "Believe" without proof. Do not question, Comply.
Science asks the question in search of proof. Belief is accomplished by the products of that proof. The device you are using is available and works because of science proof, not because of religious belief.

When mankind believed in Gods driving chariots, man was using chariots first. They associated the science of chariots to the belief in Gods. If mankind invented sleds, their Gods would have been driving sleds across the sky instead of chariots. The chariots work because of science proof. Horses were used because they were easily tamed and trained. If alligators were easily tamed and trained, the Gods would be driving alligator chariots across the sky.

The reason why it 'seems' that religion is dying and being replaced with science is because humanity is getting more intelligent and using science to make products that work.
Our understanding of the nature of the world is increasing and things do not need to be taken on faith like they used to. Belief is being surpassed by understanding.
Religion (Belief & Faith) will continue but at a different level of importance than in the past. Any religion that can't change with our level of understaning will fade away but it will be replaced with new religions.

I think I could call science an entity...
It encompasses many things with many people, all intersecting...

Maybe a culture traditionally run by religious laws based on whatever was good for the religion and its administrators at the time, and according to the fictions in its books, could have its laws rules and regulations changed and based on scientific laws, to good or better effect.

Scientific reasons to:
not eat bacon or pork; not eat meat on fridays; wear a tiny hat; wear a fish hat; have sundays off; drink red wine;

And even better, scientific reasons NOT to steal, lie, cheat, kill, and covet your neighbour's ***. [oh get real]
Good for politicians and other criminals.

Scientific reasons for holidays and celebrations, (oh no not celestial paganism!), and a scientific reason to not spend billions on cards and wrapping and junk trinkets and too much food, all destined for landfill in a few days.

But then there is the cold hard impassionate data and statistics side of science, with no give, no love, no whimsical - "just because", no humanity.
It does not compute, exterminate . . .

eh!

Oh, you mean like PROVE the Earth is 6,000 years old?
Prove that an unfertilized egg can be a zygote?
Prove that large bodies of water can be separated and people can walk across the bottom without sinking into the silt.

well, out of everything you just said, science is the only way to get a correct answer..
Should we eat pork? Science says it's ok to eat, an invisible god says it's not...

There is a site called: 'It's Symbology Stupid ', or 'itssymbologystupid' which generally indicates that a popular religion is largely based on the misinterpretation of calendars, and other 'scientific' information found in ancient texts, and special designs.

And no, the earth is not 6000 years old, it is ageless, it has no age, since time is an artificial human construct designed to explain our position in four dimensional space time, and already knowing where we are relative to our local knowledge, in three of those dimensions.

Some magical invisible imaginary friend made coal, and all archaeology finds to appear as if they are older than they really are, subverting radio carbon dating and all other methods especially to confuse and confound non-believer scientists.

But if you leave food out too long, it spontaneously breeds worms !
Blame that on the magical invisible imaginary friend's evil twin.

Y'know, for the most part I agree with what you say.
Except this view on time.
Time is not an artificial human construct.
The passage of time truly does exist, humans just have the ability to place significance on it.
Time is progression of change.
It happens at all levels of reality, whether we detect it or not.
For time to stop, the entire Universe would have to reach absolute Zero (Freeze Solid) down to the spin of sub-atomic particles.
Anything that has duration exhibits time. It matters not if that duration is observed. It matters not the duration of the change.
The moment anything static begins to move or change its state, results in duration of time.

Belief is not always a bad thing.
Neither is having faith in your beliefs.

Beliefs can however, cause you to have faith in a delusion.
Its a case of believing something to be true and having faith that it is true without finding out if it is true or not.

When reality aligns with belief, faith has validity.
Reality is reality whether anyone believes it or not.
It remains reality even when the delusions of belief create a false sense of faith.

Many times, as we walk the path of life, delusional belief creates faith to reinforce the delusion.
Like depression, it is self-perpetuating and full of illusion and misappropriated reinforcement.

Consider this:
You believe your car will start in the morning when you try to leave for work.
You have faith that it will start when you turn the key.
Most of the time, it does start.
This is because reality aligns with your belief and faith.
When it does not start, you call it broken.
This is because the conditions of reality did not align with your faith in the belief that it will start when you turn the key.
If you possessed no belief or faith in your car starting, you would turn the key with no expectations if you turned the key at all.
If you know your car won't start, do you go out every morning as if it will start and try to start it?
After the car is fixed, for the first few mornings you are hesitant if it will start.
After it does start again a few times, your belief and faith is reestablished.

When we set personal goals we are setting a belief in an outcome that is not certain.
We work towards those goals in faith that we will accomplish them.
When we do, we mark those as valid beliefs but if we don't accomplish our goals we mark those as unattainable and we eventually lose belief and faith to make them happen.

Religion is the act of believing in similar beliefs and faiths of others. The strength of religion is that other's faith inspires and reinforces your own faith.
This is the same delusional unity that happens with depressive considerations.
The delusions are reinforced by other people's faith in a belief.

In a religious mindset
The car with no starter is repeatedly attempted to start by all the members of the group on the belief that their faith will start the car, even tho in reality, there is no starter present. No matter how much faith or belief is shared, that car will not start.
When a reality mindset is gained
There is a loss of belief and faith which causes you to no longer attempt to start that car.
You realize that belief and faith are not defining aspects of reality.

Reality is observable by anyone, not just those who believe. It remains reality whether a billion people recognize it or nobody.
Science is the attempt to recognize reality.
What many don't understand is that we don't have a 'full picture' and are trying to put reality together like a jigsaw puzzle. Sometimes the pieces don't fit together right. Sometimes we force the wrong piece in the wrong place. Then someone else comes along and says "That piece doesn't fit there, it fits here". Then all the pieces related to that piece must then be reexamined to see if they really do fit where we put them.

Technically, we place the pieces of reality in the positions that we 'believe' is the correct place. We place faith in our decision until that faith is broken by reality. Sometimes those pieces actually fit where we didn't know to place them till that location is revealed to us. Science is the act of figuring out the right place for the pieces of reality so they do fit, at which time, faith and belief are no longer a valid consideration.

Religion is faith.
Science is empirical proof.

Scientists have passion but the science doesn't, its science.

can be, but a lot of it is educated guesses...

Science is discovery it means EVERYTHING around us far and close so, if we agree religion is a way to be close to the creator of all those things it means science and religion have both the same purpose. when you try to understand human being, nature... how the'r made, you'r also discovering the methods even the nature of the Engineer or the antity responsable... so it depend Who you think he is or it is....

at the end of the day, a theory is a group of proven hypothesis clustered together to make a truth. but the reality is, just because you add 20 truths together does not mean it will actually function.

example:

ice - salt - milk - vanilla - blender makes ice cream

spoke - chain - peddle - axle makes the combination to operate a bike.

but if you add the ice - salt - milk - vanilla to mixture of a bike operation you will eventually get rust.

but these are 2 truths that theoretically create a hypothesis, even in failure.

and from my interest within science, I see combinations like this creating theories. and then they mask it with mathematics.

I really believe science is for people who want another view outside of religion, but not willing to research to see if science is even factual.



***I am not claiming there are no facts within science and its theories. but I make it a habit of tearing current theories apart. if these theories were sound, I would fail in my attempts. since I have succeeded, I can conclude science is just like religion. full of holes and enough bull **** to fool those who believe God is nonexistent.***

Science can only be concertedly described by what it is in practise, which is this and only this and nothing else whatsoever but this:
You must start with a falsifiable hypothesis.
You must show testable results of reproducible experimentation and observation in nature.
Your conclusions must be subject to peer review.

It is not politics, it is not an opinion about anything, it is not a final conclusion about anything, it is merely a method in which to correctly investigate actual phenomenae, in order to provide functioning systems.

The only possible relationship science can have with religion is investigation of modern scriptural references for their historical accuracy with respect to original linguistic forms and cross cultural influences. Science can argue about scriptural point matter but it has no bearing upon any supernatural assertion such as the existence of the divine. It may be relevant to people but it isn't to science, you can't engineer a better television set based upon whether or not there is a God.

no .. Religion is grounded in morals and spirituality . There is little about science that is sacred or holy.

Science will never replace religion but it certainly can change it. Only a few hundred years ago it was blasphemy to most religions and societies to say the earth was not the center of the universe. This is just one small example. Science has proven a lot of what is said in the bible as false.
Every "religion" has evolved over time, their laws or rules change by societal influence(like gay marriage)or scientific findings.

It already has in some quarters actually. While science operates on logic and religion operates on faith they are both not absolutes.
As in faith , science employs the repetition technic. Meaning if you say it often enough it will become believable , like the theory of evolution for one. Religion for its part gives you 2 hail Marys and your sins are forgiven.