Can someone quote me scripture which implies that God had some predetermined "plan" of what mankind would become?

acts chap 1 verse 7 : 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Thank you for this response cajun...

Acts, which was written by Luke, as his second volume of Christianity, begins by telling of how Jesus poured out His Holy Spirit on the chosen apostles. Before Jesus actually did this act, and during the forty days that He continued to visit with them, after the crucifixation, those apostles asked Jesus about restoring the kingdom to Israel...

And that was Jesus' response to a specific question, that also happened to allude to a previously mentioned subject matter in which Jesus had said that the kingdom would be returned to Israel.

One could say, quite obviously, according to this passage, that there was obviously a "plan" for THAT given situation... which was NOT mankind on a whole...

Unless you see something that I did not...

I am truly surprised that no one has found, or chose to look, or for whatever reason has not responded to this request other than cajun... Thanks again cajun... sincerely

You see, as we all know, there are many people here who seem to have a hidden agenda, or just an outright wide open one, which is expressed with a "negative" style of communication... sometimes seeming to have "belittle" as a driver. Either way, I can assure you that I did not and do not have that intention...

I can recall, so many times, Christians and non-christians alike believing or referring to the notion that God has everything already been "planned" out for the human race, as if we are living actors of some script of God... which I do not believe is the case. I have heard many pastors and church members alike saying this also.

I have read the Holy Bible through and through on many occasion, remembering and embracing all the good that is in it... while at the same time, attempting to keep it all in "context"... I simply cannot remember anywhere in it which clearly states or implies such a notion...

I just want to know if it says such a thing...and if so...where exactly?

If not, why do we go around using this assumption to back up anything... either way?

Thank you klc... it is good to meet you...

I just try to be open to learn... always... should any teacher unknowingly or knowingly have a lesson for me in this lifetime...

Creativesoul wrote:
“Can someone quote me scripture which implies that God had some predetermined "plan" of what mankind would become?”

I didn’t respond earlier because I have no answer. Or to put that another way, my answer is similar to yours. I been through the Bible myself searching precisely for any sign of “God’s Master Plan” with absolutely no luck. It just doesn’t seem to be in there anywhere which is a huge part of why I’ve ultimately rejected the Bible has having been inspired by God. It seems to me that if God had a Master Plan for man he certainly would have revealed it. What would be the point in keeping it a secret?

Whenever I’ve asked this questions of theologians the answer I get back most frequently is that God’s only directive to us seems to be “Be fruitful and multiply”, along with all the commandments on how to behave.

But that’s an extremely vague Master Plan. What does being “fruitful” mean? Fruitful in what way? There doesn’t seem to be any goal or objective for mankind as a whole which seems to fly in the face of the idea that God has a “Master Plan”.

Creativesoul wrote:
“If not, why do we go around using this assumption to back up anything... either way?”

I ask that all the time too. People seem to believe that God has a plan for each and every one of us, yet he seems to keep it a complete secret from us. How is that going to work? How are we to do God’s will if we don’t know what that will is? Isaac Newton struggled with this for many years and finally came to the conclusion that it’s just not in there. Most people aren’t aware of his work in theology, but he was very concerned with knowing God’s master plan for mankind and for him personally, and he devoted much time and effort to searching through the Bible for answer and never found any.

If God has a master plan for me I certainly have no clue what it is (or was). Whether I accomplished it or not I’ll never know. I do know that I have given myself over to God many years ago when I was quite young. I asked God what he would like me to do and never got an answer. I wasn’t excepting to hear a voice in my head, I was expecting to see signs in my life, opportunities open up to do specific things. However, most of the things that I pursued often ended in disaster by powers completely beyond my control. Things like the institutions I was working for would go bankrupt, or overwhelming health problems, or simply being denied an opportunity that I felt drawn to partake in. You simply can’t work with an institution if they refuse to take you on board. In fact, I’ve even been rejected by volunteer outfits! Their concerns were associated with my poor health.

So obviously God didn’t want me to do any of those things or he would have met me half-way or helped to have made them possible.

The other possibility is that I have actually done everything God has asked me to do and I just don’t know it. But that’s not very fulfilling. Why would God keep people in the dark who are honestly trying to do his will? Especially when I hear other people proclaiming how God has filled their life and ‘talks’ to them everyday and has even given them ‘proof’ of his existence. How lucky are they????

And why would God not treat everyone equally?

I’ve come to the same conclusion as Isaac Newton. There’s nothing to it. If there is a God with a plan he does NOT let people know what it is. I think the people who claim that God talks to them are simply delusional. They are living a delusion. Because there’s no reason why that same God would reject others who are as sincere and devoted as they can possibly be. That just makes no sense at all.

I have since rejected the Bible and I have come to know god in a completely differnet way. A way that makes much more sense to me and seems to be far more compassionate and wise. With this new picture of god I understand now that anything I do is serving god. Providing I feel good about it in a just and proper way. That’s the only criteria required.

To Creativesoul.

Coitainly!!!!

Matthew 6: all

Matt.6: 30-34 30) Wherefore,if God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, SHALL HE not much more CLOTHE you, O ye of little faith?

31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32) ( For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33) But seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient to the day IS the evil thereof.

Once again... wouldee, thank you...

After reading the surrounding chapters that lead up to 6, and then into and through 6, I could concur that this chapter is definitely reaffirming God's protection of the righteous man who seeks Him. However, although it does refer to the future, Jesus does so as means to make a point... The title of that particular section is "Do not worry"... I understood this notion long ago.

Jesus went through a list of things to do in this, and the surrounding chapters and those words seemed to be spoken for the purpose of reassurance... and immediately followed a section that spoke of storing your treasures in heaven not on earth... Jesus went immediately from talking about the implied insignificance of material things to reassuring that God would supply us with what we needed, because he already knows before we ask...

Matthew 6:34 The last verse... NIV...

"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of it's own."

This is a wonderful reassurance that should add an extra amount of peace to the believer's heart and spirit, however, I do not see how this can be understood as anything other than what it is to me... God being all-knowing of our needs as they arise... and filling them as needed...

No indication is given to me that the future us planned though... predetermined outcome... no indication whatsoever...

Please, if this seems different to you, could you elaborate?

to Creativesoul.

Sometimes the obvious is obscured by the need for more elaboration.

An example. Jesus apparently spoke with a man who had done many noble and right acts in his life and still didn't feel complete in hia assurances of peace with God. When asked what further this man should do to be assured of his state of being with God, jesus replied, " sell all you have and follow me!".

The man is described as being very distraught over the suggestion to sell all and follow a poor, controversial young man with contentions all around him.

My take is this. The man should have, or could have been content with Jesus' first comment to do as the man had done already. But the man didn't accept the simple acknowledgement of his good deeds and further strove for more compelling acts of benevolence as justification of his own experience. Whereas the answer given caused great dismay and anquish.

Some times I think God would prefer that we sit down and shut up!!! Live well and love one another and leave well enough alone. If we strive for the mastery of life, we must sacrifice all to take up anothers sword.


As a conclusion, I would draw your attention away from things that distract one from the daily challenges we all face, since it is my belief that every day is one long day and that the sun only circles the Earth in appearance only. When actually the Earth is spinning around the Sun on two axii. Daily and yearly, and only for the provisions of the natural created garden that we dwell in. Our role is one of living well in the present. We are not responsible for the works of other generations, nor are we held accountable for the wwork of mankind as a whole. But rather, responsible and accountable for our own attitudes, behaviour, actions and choices that we make with the breath we employ.


Any predetermined conclusion would have to ignore present needs and I don't find any examples to suggest that any of our lives are designed to be an artful example of original revelation that by definition alone would inherently preclude and exclude the validity and purpose of any other living,, breathing, thinking soul. Past, present or future.

Ahh...wouldee,

Thank you, once again, for your valuable input...

This thread was necessary for me because of the misuse of this pre-determined notion of existence, as I see it to be anyway. Quite frankly, I feel any use of a predetermined notion of existence, or a belief thereof, merely assimilates mankind to a robotic nature, of which I feel is completely irrational to begin with. Mankind's inherent ability to learn and grow would be such a wasteful and fruitless creation if tomorrow did not happen as a result of today, and if mankind truly did not have ANY control over what happened, not that we have complete control, but some means of it. Relevancy and validity are contingent upon having a choice...which we do.

Your two conclusionary paragraphs said it all and I absolutely agree with those notions...

Peace be with you, my friend...

"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of it's own"

Time is a human concept ... 'God's time" is the perpetual NOW ... it is living in the present moment ... living fully ... experiencing fully ... yesterday is gone ... tomorrow is not yet and unknown ...

Now ... this moment ... this is what we have ... this is where our life is created.

Is it not?

Hiya Sherrie...

You know that that is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too deep for such a feeble mind as my own... lol...

:smooches:

Hi Sherrie,

I completely agree with both you, and Creativesoul that the idea of taking no thought of the morrow is simply a metaphor for living in the now, which is of course taught in all pantheistic religions as well.

However, I agree with Creativesoul that this ideal is not the same as having a ‘master plan’ which Christians often claim their God has. On the contrary, living in the ‘now’ could hardly be a ‘master plan’, at least in the sense that God is supposed to have a plan for each individual person.

In fact, trying to apply the allegory of “taking no thought of the morrow” (living in the now) in a literal sense makes absolutely no sense at all.

That would mean that we shouldn’t be farmers, because planting seeds today with the idea of eating the food ‘tomorrow’ would be in direct violation of this idea. Also, building an abode for protection against the elements would also be in conflict with taking no thought of the morrow.

So yes, it’s a good philosophy on the level of (living in the now) and not “worrying” about tomorrow. But I don’t see how it can be applicable to any ‘master plan’.

In fact, the very idea of a ‘master plan’ implies that there is going to be a goal to work toward that will probably take more than a day to accomplish.

But I do agree with your interpretation of the metaphor.

Hi Abra ... master plan? My life pre-destined ... all planned out? Some screenplay written by God and now we are just actors playing a role? No siree ... I don't buy into the notion of that either.


Hiya Michael - your mind is anything but feeble ... and see ... I can be good ... I haven't run amok in here at all ....

Abra.

You took it and ran with it. I suspected a bigger bite out of us, though!!!!

You are right, so right. That's why I race and golfing preachers will tell you I'm heade for Hell in a handbasket because I tempt fate by putting my son in a race car, let alone encouraging him to be BALLS OUT at 15 years old!!!

But that's the object lesson to my son and myself. If we do nothing, nothing happens.

If I believe that committment, perseverance, resources, dedication and hard work will bear good fruit, then I must establish congruent examples with my life!!!

And believe me!!! There are many examples of forces at work to stop us from winning!!!! BUT WE WIN!!!!

I get a chuckle when my son thinks I have advance knowledge from GOD that I secretly withhold from him, because for the most part, I'm right about being able to win.

what a thrill I have watching the unknown become entertainment for so many!!!

What a thrill I EXPECT to have some day of something my kids grab a hold of and don't let go of until they have achieved their goal!!!!

WOW!!!!!! What fun, my friend!! What fun!!!

The kids' success is our success...for sure... nothing like it in the world... to see that happen... and for the grateful and pleasant nature held within... icing on the cake of success...

Teach a child in the way he should go when he is young, and when he is old, he will not turn from it...

Abra does not "bite" friends...lol...

nah but he might nibble a little

oopsy ... that was a little amok ...

I don't think "God's Plan" refers to a master plan for what's going to happen to everyone in the future. I think the whole bible is the plan. If you follow it's teachings then you will have God's result. If carpenters get plans to build a house and choose not to follow the plan then the result might not be as the plan creator designed.
By the same token if you follow God's plan and choose a spouse wisely, treat them the way God teaches, don't be a drunkard, worship, study his teachings, etc. Then the result will be what God intended for you.
Obviously God doesn't plan in advance that a person is going to be a pedophile and I don't think anyone that follows his plan could be.