Rev 22-1-20

1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

[2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

[3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

[4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

[6] And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

[7] Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

[8] And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[10] And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Hello and welcome MagnoliaGuy - I hope you enjoy the site

Welcome Magnolia have a blast....alot of good ppl on this site.

Thanks for the hellos! I'm enjoying reading the thoughts of others although the thoughts of some are a little disturbing...

Yes...hello and welcome Magnoliaguy, <<<insert smile>>>...

I am reminded of life in Louisiana, magnolia, persimmon, pecan, and the marvelous cypress in all their splendor with the spanish moss tapestry... wonderful... simply wonderful...

Just for a little background: aspects of my belief system...

The bible and the lessons which I learned, continue to learn, and have carried within me, played an instrumental role in my eyes becoming open to the acceptance of my mistaken definition of right and wrong... the entire process included not so much a "change" of heart, as in the unfamiliar, moreover, actually it helped to re-soften my heart, back to what it was before... when I was born...

I do not believe that people are born "sinners"... completely unacceptable... although I used to.

Born "into" sin...absolutely, "it" is all around... negative and dark... supressing... and most importantly... LEARNED...

Children learn what they live. It is undeniable... "God" simply enables one to unlearn those "truthes" which darken an individuals life and heart... and yes, I do believe that one must ask that the Lord be a part of their life and that true sorrow for all that the individual has done "wrong" must be felt... God WILL re-define these "wrong" things to a person... Jesus and His "salvation" is the most widely used method... however, Jesus dismissed the "Law" in many ways... changed it to a loving and forgiving method, rather than an angry and vengeful method, which had been so widely accepted and WRONG... a mistake stemming from man's inherent need to place physiological principles to our God...

If it were the road on which He wished for us to walk, then why send Jesus, who paved a new one?


I do not believe it is always one-size-fits-all...

It is widely accepted and understood that different teaching methods work better or not, all depending on the student...

Why would I not believe that God is more adept than humans, which have, in recent history, just come to know and accept this notion?

The only way I will give credence to this:

[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

:Is if you can find me the original text...complete...without alteration of ANY kind... and THAT is just not possible, so that instruction has already been "dis-obeyed" many times over... I do not believe, however, that it is cause to disregard the entire text... It is ONE wonderful source, from the source of all...


I would NEVER disregard the text which was instrumental to this man's renaissance, or "re-birth", if you please...the book which reminded this man how he was supposed to love... and highlighted the acceptances within me which darkened my world... thereby enabling me to address and remove those broken pieces which did not fit my puzzle...


I am personally quite the resourceful fellow, finding new ways to use what is given or had in order to obtain a goal. I am quite sure that God is FAR more resourceful than I could ever hope to be....therefore, that acceptence within myself leads me to believe that He will show himself to me in an infinite variety of methods and ways... some of which WILL be outside the confines of the book that has evolved to become The Holy Bible.


You see, I believe that God has love for ALL creation, all that He created, by being everything... This earth on which we live is the foothold of our own conscious awareness... outside of the nature of the planet, all that is around us, we, as man created... for God's experience... not that He chose... but that WE chose... he lives in each and every one of us, and goes through all of the physiological emotions by means of us... look at the world around us that we have chosen to share with Him... Every emotion, from every human, every time... this is God's only existence outside of the source of energy into which all things will be reduced once again... and we will be led there on the "river of life", which leads to this "ocean" of energy...

God is a part of all that is...the Alpha the Omega the beginning the end the first and the last...

ALL that is...

Was Mary predestined to do this or was it the act that was?

John 12:4-8

4 But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, 5 "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor ?" 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

7 But Yahshua said, "Let her alone; she has kept this for the day of My burial. 8 For the poor you have with you always, but Me you do not have always."
NKJV


Mark 13:32-33

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father .
NKJV

If Yahweh is the alpha and omega is this day predestined?



Matt 3:1-3

In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness :
'Prepare the way of the Yahweh;
Make His paths straight.'"
NKJV


Was Yahshua’s cousin pre-ordained to be the EliYah of his time?

Did Yahshua come as prophesied?

Zech 4:11-5:3

11 Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees — at the right of the lampstand and at its left?" 12 And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"

13 Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?"

And I said, "No, my master."

14 So he said,"These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside Yahweh of the whole earth."

Zechariah 5



Then I turned and raised my eyes, and saw there a flying scroll.

2 And he said to me, "What do you see?"

So I answered, "I see a flying scroll. Its length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits."

3 Then he said to me, "This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole earth: 'Every thief shall be expelled,' according to this side of the scroll; and, 'Every perjurer shall be expelled,' according to that side of it."
NKJV


Is all this pre-ordained as the 2 anointed ones stand beside Yahweh? What is the flying scroll?

Rev 11:1-6

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying,"Rise and measure the temple of Yahweh, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy ( the flying scroll ?) one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the Elohim of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. ( the curse that goes over the face of the earth?)
NKJV

Which one of these can you say Yahweh does not know exactly who,when where will happen?


Blessings of Shalom… Miles

Word is the operative...um...word. In Greek, "Word" is Logos. The Revelation of John is a very old document, written about 70 AD, so veracity of the text shouldn't be in question. But the meaning of "Logos" (word) in the quoted verse should be investigated. See the defintion of Logos below.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3056&Version=kjv


Logos in this scripture isn't talking about definition 2 or 3, so we can discount them off handedly. That leaves us with defintion 1.

Item "a" doesn't apply, because it is speaking of Logos which has been "uttered by a living voice" and the verse in question is talking about logos "of the book of this prophecy".

Item "c" doesn't count, because that applies to "discourse" and not to written text.

That leaves us with items "b", "d", "e", "f" and "g". Looking through the defintions, one stands out immediately: b5 ("Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets"). The scripture quoted above is speaking of "the book of this prophecy". Therefore, I feel that b5 is the appropriate defintion for "Logos" in this verse, which can be simplified to "prophecy". Logos is singular, Logoi is plural, so we are talking about the words as a whole, not the individual words. The words as a whole convey a prophecy which was written in Greek.

Given that reasoning, I believe that what this verse is saying is "Don't change the prophecy", not "Don't translate the words". The words can change, as long as the meaning is not tampered with.

Hi creativesoul, thanks for the welcome.

I think I'm a little more traditional in my beliefs. I think too many people reject parts of the bible they don't like. It's gets watered down to the point that many people never read the bible, never go to church, and think as long as they're a nice person they'll be alright. I think the things that are in there are there for good reason.
Don’t get me wrong though. I haven’t done well at all on this myself. I’d love to get rid of that pesky pre-marital sex sin. I have a really hard time following that one and I’m sure at some point I’m going to have a lot of explaining to do but I do think it’s a sin and understand why it’s a sin.
Anyway, this is for a different thread...

Miles:

Thank you for your insight and question(s), that initiated my deeper investigation into the meanings of the scripture which you have brought to my attention for the purpose of my initial question in this thread...

I need more time than I have available at this very moment, but you HAVE sparked something in me that thirsts for further understanding, and I will re-visit your examples when I can do it without distraction... later on today hopefully...



MagnoliaGuy:

I can fully appreciate the acceptances within others, even if they do not resonate within me... all beliefs are welcome to me... I hope you find this site of use for your continual growth in knowledge and understanding of that which you hold dear....


feral:

I did not mean to seem disregarding to you or your post, that too, needs more time and attention from myself...


spider:

Thank you for your efforts in your post, and it, as well as the others deserve more time than I can give at this very moment...


I will give a much more complete response to all this later in the day...

Abra;

I would tend to agree with you. If God has a specific plan for everybody - He's managed not to spell it out in the bible. There are many references of the plans God has for those who seek out his wisdom - Jeremiah 29:11 and so on come to mind. Plans to prosper people when they seek Him out. But I think the more specific "master plan" for people comes through the parable of the Talents. We all have unique talents and abilities - often that seem to be present without much thought. Some are quite good at reasoning and Math, others are good with verbal skills and communication. I have a hard time thinking that these attributes are random, or self motivated. I never had a strong interest in Math when I was very young - just discovered I had an aptitude for it. Then again - I have found that there have been people who have crossed paths with me in my life who were fabulous mentors - there to help me develop the skills and talents I had - and then there were others who I invested time in who were a complete waste of my effort. There was often an immediate sense of knowing what direction those people might take me in - which sharpened as I got older. It has been more than obvious to me that different people who have appeared in my life we just not coincidences. I especially discovered this when I made the decision to start my own theater company. Within a six month period of time I meet the 10 people who's unique skills and personalities were crucial for the successful development of the company, and I met them in bars, restaurants, at parties - in Cafe's, and naturally a few in the theater - but as I watched the company grow and become successful - there was no doubt that it was not through any effort on my part that these people "happened" to come into my life - it was just a matter of me being able to discern who and what they were about, and to trust their abilities to do the jobs I needed them to do. Is there a scripture for that? Can't quote you one directly - but my sense of overviewing the bible tells me that this was God working in my life - Why me? Because I ASKED him to bring me these people - because I just couldn't do everything by myself.

So - given your obvious skills and abilities in your field, do you think the people who came into your life - the professors, mentors, or even the students who challenged your abilities to teach - were there from any effort on your part? I would suggest you think not. And though "she" might have done that for you - there's one thing for certain, there are more references that say "He" would do that for you in the scritures - than there is silence on this part. So - are people treated differently? No. Everyone has talents - and people brought into their lives for good, and bad. It's just that some of us thank God for them - others blame God because they think there's not enough - or the choices they make concerning their own skills and talents, or to reject or accept the people in their lives don't seem to match up to their own standards. But to me - the "imbalance" in opportunity lies in how one goes about making their decisions when presented with options.

Eljay...

I can truly and deeply appreciate your sentiment... thank you very much for this insight... it was quite eloquent, and beautifully worded... peaceful indeed...

Can someone quote me God's plan was the initial topic of this thread.

I think the Bible is full of what God and Christ want for man....I think what is so hard on man is to give the control to God and see where he wants you...instead of where you think you should be. I will give you an example for myself.

When I was first saved and trying to understand what the Lord intended for my life.....I was asked by the church secretary if I knew anything about Semartians Purse. I informed her that I have been working with this ministry for over 13 years. I was then put in charge of doing Operation Christmas Child at our church..This is where you fill the shoeboxes with gifts and they are sent to third world countries for people to learn about Christ.

The Lord then led me to the ministry at church where we were going to raise enough money for a church, orphanage and a water well in India. I will now being going in February to India to minister in this tiny village and care for the kids, and adults in the curch and the orphanage....Now I know that without the hand of God....that all the ministries I do just would not of happend....But I take the time to be quiet and listen to what he has to say....and then to the best of my ability do what the Lord asks.

So the Father God....has taken all my gifts and used them to glorify his name. And that is what I believe that God wants to do with all of us......To first and foremost love Him with all the fiber of your being.....Love the neighbor as yourself......And help all the people of the world where you abilities allow.....

Eljay and Creativesoul,

On the topic of needing God, and/or God’s roles in bringing people into our lives.

As you both know, I have a pantheistic view of God, which I feel very strongly is misunderstood.

For me, the pantheistic God throws dice. But this does not represent total chaos and chance. I’ve explained this before, but I’ll say it again, for any new forum members. When we toss a pair of dice we have no idea what number will come up. However, we know perfectly well what numbers can’t come up. We can’t roll less than a duce, and we can’t roll more than boxcars. Moreover, we can only roll the integer values between those extremes. We can even know something about the probability that the changes are higher to roll a seven than any other numbers.

For me, this is how God works. God ‘rolled’ the universe knowing full well what the possibilities and probabilities were. However, God doesn’t control the numbers as they actually emerge on the face to the dice.

In other words, anyone you meet is by pure chance. But not really, either. As Eljay had mentioned, we all have specific talents and interest. Those factors certainly play into how things roll out. For example, if you become a math profess and start teaching colleges classes you likely to meet a lot of young people who are interested in learning math. If, on the other hand, you have no interest in education and you hang out in a slum joint complaining about how miserable life is, then you’ll probably meet similar-minded people.

So while we aren’t in complete control over who we’ll meet, our choices in life are certainly going to play a role in who we are likely to meet.

I have met a lot of interesting people in my life. I have had a profound affect on some of them, and some of them have had a profound affect on me. I see no reason to attribute this to any divine intervention. What’s wrong with attributing it to the people who I’m meeting? They are where they are at because of the choices they’ve made, and I got to the same place via the choices I made.

I just don’t see the necessity to imagine in a third controlling party. What’s the point to it? Would not like-minded people meet anyway if there were no God? How would anything change? I just don’t see the advantage of attributing this to a God. Why should that make it any ‘better’ or any more significant than if we just happened to meet by chance.

What is it about life that makes people what to believe that some third party is in control?

Is this some kind of security issue? They can’t handle the idea that we might actually be in control of our own lives?

In other thread it was mentioned that it would be arrogance or selfish pride to believe that we are in ‘control’. But I think that’s the wrong attitude. Obviously we aren’t in control of who we might meet by chance, other than by choosing to control that probability that we’ll meet like-minded people.

Obviously, if we’d like to meet highly intelligent people for a philosophical discussion we aren’t going to get all dressed up and drive down to the local porn shop. I mean, let’s face it, we DO control where we decide to go and that obviously has an influence on who we are likely to meet.

And here’s the real kicker! This is where people often think that God is at work,…

Let’s say that your perverted uncle wants you to go down to the porn shop and buy him a dirty magazine. You don’t want to do this, but your uncle is dying from cancer and you feel sorry for him and want to please him so you drive down to the porn shop to get the perverted magazine.

You go in the store and meet the cashier and find her very attractive. You start talking with her and discover that she’s a college student working her way through law school. She only took the job because she needed the money and it was the only job she could find at the moment. You ask her out, fall in love, and marry her.

Now tell me, am I going to have to hear for the rest of my life how God MADE that happen???

I’m sorry but it was pure chance and yes it was a very unlikely roll, because normally neither you nor the woman would ever go into a porn shop on your own free will, but there you have it. Through powers beyond your control you met the love of your life and swear it was MEANT to be!

Instead of thanking God for that one I think you should just be thankful that your uncle has a dirty mind.

I mean, seriously, who you want to give credit for your lucky events is your business, but as far as I’m concerned God made this life the way it is. And I respect that. The point being that there are MANY opportunities out there. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. There are many doors on the faces of the dice of God. Which ones you enter are ultimately your choice.

In short, I don’t believe in a God that baby-sits us. God designed opportunities into life. It’s up to us to seek them out and find them, and isn’t this precisely what the Biblical God has told us to do? “Seek and ye shall find"

God has no need to baby-sit us, he's already done all the work to insure the opportunities will always be there. There’s no need to baby-sit.

Abra:

I have to totally disagree. I have had many people come into my life that I feel totally where God intervened. Example I am now an assistant to a very famous actor. Who was a mess, drugs, women, you name he did. Now here comes me....Totally against drugs.....totally against prostitution, porn the whole bit. Now I have surrounded this man with Christians with the same beliefs. I prayed and prayed while this gentleman was in prison that he got a hold of a bible...He did October 27th...No this to me is total God intervention and prayer answered. Now we will see what God has in store for both this man, his girlfriend, ex stripper and myself. The Lord spoke to my heart very strongly that I need to be with these people, surround them with good people that will have their best interest at heart, and hopefully change his and her ways so that they can have a happy productive (children) life.

Now due to the fact that God gave all of us freewill......how can I make this happen you may be asking......Because I believe that by example they will see more to life then the partying, the drugs and that particular lifestyle....No again you may ask how can I do that when I am so against what they did and the lifestyle they led....Because I was them, I did all that and now I don't and my life is better for it.....By example is God's way of showing people how life was meant to be.

And just as for me being led by others who believed as I.....I shall take that knowledge and hopefully show someone else.....and again that to me is what life is all about. If you can't show others by your own example how beautiful and wonderful life can be....and to honestly live it...then what is the purpose.

I know without a doubt that the Father God put people in your path with very good reason. I have incident after incident for myself of this being the case....And people coming to me after and thanking me and God for us crossing paths...because they can say without a shadow of a doubt that their life would be so much different if that were not the case.

I just don’t see the necessity to imagine in a third controlling party. What’s the point to it? Would not like-minded people meet anyway if there were no God? How would anything change? I just don’t see the advantage of attributing this to a God. Why should that make it any ‘better’ or any more significant than if we just happened to meet by chance.

What is it about life that makes people what to believe that some third party is in control?

Is this some kind of security issue? They can’t handle the idea that we might actually be in control of our own lives?

In other thread it was mentioned that it would be arrogance or selfish pride to believe that we are in ‘control’. But I think that’s the wrong attitude. Obviously we aren’t in control of who we might meet by chance, other than by choosing to control that probability that we’ll meet like-minded people.

Obviously, if we’d like to meet highly intelligent people for a philosophical discussion we aren’t going to get all dressed up and drive down to the local porn shop. I mean, let’s face it, we DO control where we decide to go and that obviously has an influence on who we are likely to meet.

And here’s the real kicker! This is where people often think that God is at work,…

Let’s say that your perverted uncle wants you to go down to the porn shop and buy him a dirty magazine. You don’t want to do this, but your uncle is dying from cancer and you feel sorry for him and want to please him so you drive down to the porn shop to get the perverted magazine.

You go in the store and meet the cashier and find her very attractive. You start talking with her and discover that she’s a college student working her way through law school. She only took the job because she needed the money and it was the only job she could find at the moment. You ask her out, fall in love, and marry her.

Now tell me, am I going to have to hear for the rest of my life how God MADE that happen???

I’m sorry but it was pure chance and yes it was a very unlikely roll, because normally neither you nor the woman would ever go into a porn shop on your own free will, but there you have it. Through powers beyond your control you met the love of your life and swear it was MEANT to be!

Instead of thanking God for that one I think you should just be thankful that your uncle has a dirty mind.

I mean, seriously, who you want to give credit for your lucky events is your business, but as far as I’m concerned God made this life the way it is. And I respect that. The point being that there are MANY opportunities out there. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. There are many doors on the faces of the dice of God. Which ones you enter are ultimately your choice.

In short, I don’t believe in a God that baby-sits us. God designed opportunities into life. It’s up to us to seek them out and find them, and isn’t this precisely what the Biblical God has told us to do? “Seek and ye shall find"

God has no need to baby-sit us, he's already done all the work to insure the opportunities will always be there. There’s no need to baby-sit.
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Abra:

I have to totally disagree. I have had many people come into my life that I feel totally where God intervened. Example I am now an assistant to a very famous actor. Who was a mess, drugs, women, you name he did. Coming out of prison in 11 days. Now here comes me....Totally against drugs.....totally against prostitution, porn the whole bit. Now I have surrounded this man with Christians with the same beliefs. I prayed and prayed while this gentleman was in prison that he got a hold of a bible...He did October 27th...No this to me is total God intervention and prayer answered. Now we will see what God has in store for both this man, his girlfriend, ex stripper and myself. The Lord spoke to my heart very strongly that I need to be with these people, surround them with good people that will have their best interest at heart, and hopefully change his and her ways so that they can have a happy productive (children) life.

Now due to the fact that God gave all of us freewill......how can I make this happen you may be asking......Because I believe that by example they will see more to life then the partying, the drugs and that particular lifestyle....No again you may ask how can I do that when I am so against what they did and the lifestyle they led....Because I was them, I did all that and now I don't and my life is better for it.....By example is God's way of showing people how life was meant to be.

And just as for me being led by others who believed as I.....I shall take that knowledge and hopefully show someone else.....and again that to me is what life is all about. If you can't show others by your own example how beautiful and wonderful life can be....and to honestly live it...then what is the purpose.

I know without a doubt that the Father God put people in your path with very good reason. I have incident after incident for myself of this being the case....And people coming to me after and thanking me and God for us crossing paths...because they can say without a shadow of a doubt that their life would be so much different if that were not the case.

And I don't look at God as control in my life I look at him as an extension of my being....of how I deal with everything in my life....He is always included in the equation no matter what the cirumstances.....because I know with him all things are possible....

The sad thing to me abra is that you have to believe that you have to have all the control....What are you afraid of anyway.....

And to think you always going to be put in the path of like-minded people.....well that seems not only a lil selfish but also not realistic.

And to me God doesn't intervene when you meet someone at the store and ask them out....

But if you met someone at the store and you saw they were in distress and you talked to them.....and they decided to come to church with you....and then their life took on drastic changes. Would that be God.....yes because all the glory goes to him.....

It was like when I saw a man from some country I don't know where with the turbin on his head. I always saw him and he walked with pride, glad to be alive....and right after 911 I saw him again with his eyes to the ground very sad and somber...I walked over to him and lifted his chin and said, "You be proud" no hiding your face.....and he did just that...Did God put me there at that exact moment for a reason....YES HE DID....And I know that as much as I know Im going to wake and arise the name of the Father on my lips, praising and giving all the glory to Him.

If that's what you got out of my post then all I can say is that you have totally misunderstood me.

It’s like as if you are responding to someone else’s post. I never meant to imply the conclusions you have jumped to.

Besides, even if you were right, why would a person who accepts the responsibility of having control be afraid of something?

It seems to me that people who can’t handle that they might actually be responsible for their own actions are the one’s who are afraid.

Abra said:

In other thread it was mentioned that it would be arrogance or selfish pride to believe that we are in ‘control’. But I think that’s the wrong attitude. Obviously we aren’t in control of who we might meet by chance, other than by choosing to control that probability that we’ll meet like-minded people.

You also my friend don't have the choice of controlling the probability of meeting anyone either.

and thats all you got out of my post......hmmmmm

This is precisely what I’m talking about.

You did what you did because you are who you are.

The man you met was one of many men. Why would God have chosen to have you specifically meet that particular man? God created life and there are millions of people out there interacting every day!

You attribute YOUR good deed to God.

But what if that same man you met then walked around the corner and got mugged by a street gang. Did God MAKE that happen too!!!

Of course not! You’ll claim!!! God only gets credit for the good things that happen. The bad things that happen are caused by the devil (or maybe just by the bad people who do them?)

Well, it seems to me that if bad things are caused by the bad people that do them, then the good things are caused by the good people who do them.

Why attribute everything good that happens to God, whilst rejecting the notion that God is in control of the bad things????

Either God is in control of everything or he’s in control of nothing.

If God has the power to put that man in your path to have you give him a “chin-up” then God also has the power to have the man avoid the alley where the gangsters are.

In other words, if you are going to attribute to God the power to place people in particular situations, then you have to accept that God is the one who made little Johnny ride out in front of an oncoming truck on his bicycle. And God is the one who made people be in places where accidents have occurred.

In fact, I often hear people claim things like, “Wow! I was supposed to go to work in the World Trade Center on 9/11, but I had a terrible head cold! God must have given me that head cold to save my life!”

Yeah right.

What about the thousands of people that God DIDN’T save on that day????

No way. If God is in control, he’s either in control of where everyone is at all times, or he isn’t.

This is just another one of those “Have your cake and eat it too” things.

God can control our paths, and does so to create good things, but when bad things happen don’t blame God!

It’s in inconsistent philosophy.

If God baby-sits, he doesn’t do a very good job with a lot of people!

You want to give God credit for everything good that happens, and deny that God is responsible for anything bad that might happen.

It's a one-sided phiolosphy.

Abra;

"I just don’t see the necessity to imagine in a third controlling party. What’s the point to it? Would not like-minded people meet anyway if there were no God? How would anything change? I just don’t see the advantage of attributing this to a God. Why should that make it any ‘better’ or any more significant than if we just happened to meet by chance.

What is it about life that makes people what to believe that some third party is in control?

Is this some kind of security issue? They can’t handle the idea that we might actually be in control of our own lives?"

>>> Well, I don't really see it as a "necessity" to attribute who we meet to a third party - I mean, I don't search for deeper meaning with everyone I come in contact with, and I do believe there is a certain amount of "chance" involved with encounters, and I certainly think that we tend to put ourselves in positions to meet like minded people - but my personal experience with the timing factor of meeting people with a very specific skill set in the most unlikely of places with an extremely short window of time - having discussed with God His knowledge of my need (and no I didn't call Him to respond to the Trolls ahead of time) at times brings a smile to my face I just can't wipe away. It just brings to light the truth behind the passage "ask and thou shalt recieve" on a very personal level with me - that suits me just fine. Is that proof of the biblical God? Perhaps not for you - and I understand and respect your position on that - but for me, it's as real as a registered letter from Heaven. I've never had any reason to doubt it - I absolutely count on it - and I've yet to be let down. You often say that God/She does that for you, and that She has suited you just fine, and for me, I share that same experience. It's just that my experience is with the God of the bible. So I share the same frustration that you do with the people who try to tell you that the god you know is something different than what you know her to be.