Voil wrote:
“Evolution is not a religious topic. It has nothing to do with the 50 contradicting variations of the so-called 'creationist' religious based metaphors.

There is no debate to be had on that premise. There are no debates in the scientific community about evolution vs a piece of dogmatic religious belief. Only the fundamentalists, mostly of the US Protestant persuasion, are forcing this false debate strictly based on the fact that evolution appears to disagree with their dogmatic verbatim interpretation of the 'book'.”

This is completely true. The so-called ‘creationists’ have absolutely no ‘evidence’ for their position other than the dogmatic believe in ancient Middle Eastern doctrines. And ironically, everyone who believes in those doctrines doesn’t even agree with the strict fundamentalists verbatim interpretations.

In fact, when you hit them back with ‘verbatim’ interpretations from the SAME BOOK they denounce them as meaning PRECISELY what they say.

For example, Matthew and Mark quoted Jesus as having said,…

“... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [Matt. xxiv, 74-34; Luke xxi, 32.]

"So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." ["Mark xiii, 29-30.]

In both cases Mark and Matthew clearly state that “This generation shall not pass, till all these thing be fulfilled”. If that’s taken verbatim then the words of Jesus never came true because that generation has pass a very LONG time AGO!

So, when it’s convenient for religious fanatics to take the Bible verbatim (like to oppose evolution) they do so. But when taking it verbatim denies its own truth then they are quick to reject the verbatim approach and say, “Oh that’s not exactly what was meant!”.

The whole religion is based on a “have your cake and eat it too” approach. Whatever fits their argument at any given moment is what they jump for. No objectivity needed. All that's required is a desire to preserve the faith no matter what! In spite of all odds, and all evidence against it!

Even deny its own self-inconsistencies!!!!

Praise the Lord! Halleluiah Brother! We're Saved!

And we’re laughing at all those who opposed us and are going to hell.

Ha ha ha! So there!

That’s the essences of religious fundamentalism. Religion gone awry! Bigotry by the Bible. Indoctrination of ignorance. Just shut up and BELIEVE! God will take care of the rest! In the meantime, get my doctor on the line I haven't been feeling well lately.

Voil;

My concern is not with the discussion at hand - but the conclusions of the people within it, and being squeezed into boxes. As the post you wrote citing all of the "examples" of the behaviors of what you understand to be "fundamental Christians". If I chose to believe the bible - so be it, if you do not, so be it. But enough of the "catogorizing" of what a Fundamental Christian (whatever that is, your either a Christian or you're not) does, thinks, or is. That is like the non-sense of a "Weak Atheist and Strong Atheist". Is that like being an Atheist every Tuesday, Thursday, and Tuesday? Whereas interpretation may break down Christianity or Atheism into "denominational" lines - You initailly are either one - or you're not.

Abra said:

"So, when it’s convenient for religious fanatics to take the Bible verbatim (like to oppose evolution) they do so. But when taking it verbatim denies its own truth then they are quick to reject the verbatim approach and say, “Oh that’s not exactly what was meant!”."

>>> Oh... so true. Herein lies the central difficulty with trying to squeeze the bible into the question of "Is it believable and true - or is it fairytales and false?" The central point of departure for us all. There are times when you and Voil line up the "fundamentalists" with their belief in a certain interpretation - and want them silenced, and I often tend to agree. However, that then becomes a blanket indictment on everyone who sees the bible to be true. This is not a valid conclusion that because I believe the bible to be true, that I think anyone who has a soapbox to stand on to try and explain what they see that truth to be - is right! The conclusion of the bible being false based on the claim of radical fundamentalist interpretation is the weakest point of your arguments, and it's when I want to slap you both on the side of the head.

Don't think because the Pope come's out with a new revelation about scripture - that he speaks for all Christians. Catholics maybe - but to me, the Pope is just another guy with an opinion. He does no more to "represent" me as a Christian - than Joseph Smith did, or L. Ron Hubbard, Mary Baker Eddy, anyone with a soapbox and a "new" interpretation. If you disagree with what someone is interpreting - than disagree with them, but please stop assuming we (the fellowship of JSH) are alining ourselves with these stances. That is all I have been trying to say.

As to the discussion of "Evolution". My only stance is that I do not see enough evidence to claim that Evolution is "provable" as an explination for the origin of the spiecies. That does not mean I do not believe that there is the "evolution" of things, I just don't see it being worked backwards as proof of our origin, and more than I see Catholicism working back the genesis of the Popes to make the claim that Peter was the first Pope. It is working the argument into the proof, rather than concluding it based on the evidence. While I agree with the concept of things "evolving", where is the evidence pointing to the origin of the evolvement? Whether a "Creationist or Evolutionist" - the evidence for the origin is based solely on faith. Therefore - isn't "Evolution as an explination of man's origin" nothing more than a religion?

Eljay wrote:
“There are times when you and Voil line up the "fundamentalists" with their belief in a certain interpretation - and want them silenced, and I often tend to agree. However, that then becomes a blanket indictment on everyone who sees the bible to be true. This is not a valid conclusion that because I believe the bible to be true, that I think anyone who has a soapbox to stand on to try and explain what they see that truth to be - is right! The conclusion of the bible being false based on the claim of radical fundamentalist interpretation is the weakest point of your arguments, and it's when I want to slap you both on the side of the head.”

I can understand you feelings Eljay, truly I can. And I don’t see you as being a fundamentalists like some of the others. I think you get caught up in the middle sometimes.

I actually agree with much of what the Bible says in the abstract.

However, let me quickly clarify that the things I agree with are also stated in just about every other major religion on earth! So I don’t see the Bible as holding any special place.

The Bible seriously loses it in certain places. I don’t believe in the Great Flood and in Noah’s Ark for example. At least not as they are told in the Bible. I do believe that the story of the Great Flood was sparked by a natural disaster and has some validity in that sense. But I don’t believe that there was ever an Ark involved. Nor was the flood caused because people were inherently evil.

And I also don’t believe the Jesus was God. At least not in the sense of being the one and only incarnation of the God of Abraham.

There’s no way that I could ever buy into that story. On the contrary Eljay, if the story turns out to be true I would view God as a really weird and strange entity indeed. Such a truth would really destroy my optimism that a decent god might actually exist. If Jesus was God, then God is an extremely egotistical being with a Master Plan and is only interesting in harvesting human souls who will fit into his Master Plan. He’s going to pitch the rest into eternal concentration camps of damnation.

To me this sounds more like a cosmic version of Hitler. The idea that God could be like Hitler just send chills down my spine. I think I would rather suffer for eternity in one of God’s concentration camps of damnation than to bow down and worship him. At least I would know that I’m am being true to what I value as true compassion in the face of a despicable evil entity.

The God described in the Bible is a cosmic Hitler Eljay. He’s looking to be the ruler over a supreme race and he’s ready to toss anyone who doesn’t bow down and worship him into an eternal concentration camp of damnation.

That’s what Hitler was like Eljay.

This is why I firmly believe that the book was written by men to controll the masses. Period amen. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with any supreme being.

Read The Book "Case For A Creator". You'll see how deep the rabbit hole goes. Evolution is the biggest hoax in human history, and (obviosly) has worked very well on fooling countless people.- If you believe in evolution, your in the Matrix and aren't even aware that your already a slave.

Sounds harsh, but God wants people set free from this HUGE lie.

I think Jesus is a genius-He has fooled so many people from all over the world for over 2000 years.

thank you.

nuenjins wrote:
“Evolution is the biggest hoax in human history”

Statements like this truly are delusional.

The idea that scientists are out to hoax people implies that all scientists all over the world on in cahoots with each other to pull the wool over the eyes of the public. This is obviously not the case.

God gave us brains because she wanted us to use them. In fact, it is the superior evolutionary state of our brains that separate us from the other animals.

Of all the things that god gave me I thank her most for my brain. It is the most marvelous gift, and I cherish it and appreciate it.

If the Christian God had wanted us to think like monkeys, he probably would have just created monkeys in the first place and never bothered creating man. After all, why bother giving a human a useful brain if you don’t want him to use it?

The fact that Christian Fundamentalists advocate ignorance is really scary. If they had their way we’d still be burning witches at the stake! And scientists too! And let’s not forget the Saturday night gay roast!

What a bunch of ignorant bigoted hypocrites!

Thank God the religion is dying out!

And THANK YOU!

To all of the absurdly ridiculous fundamental extremists for helping to make the religion fall apart! You are driving sane people away from Christianity with every post you make!

I do thank you for that!

God gave us brains, but also a spirit of truth. Without that spirit, you just can't understand or have the desire to seek out real truth. You will only seek out that which fits you and conforms to what YOU desire. IT IS a hoax, but debating it will only cause strife here. All the facts are readily compiled in the book I mentioned and are very plain. But if you don't want to read the book and hear the other side, then you remain willfully closed minded because you WANT to belive what you already think you know. I do know both sides, otherwise I wouldn't waste your time with useless rhetoric.

What is hoax?

Religion is dying out.
I agree with you.

I used believe everything in the Bible.
But then I opened my mind and seeked for the truth. Then I found out that the Bible had many mistakes.

I don't understand why today there are so many kinds of Christianity. Some Christians dont even believe what the Bible tells them. To me, the word "God" is just a glue to cover in the things we haven't discovered, yet.

I totally understand everything you just said Manami, I used to think those same things.

So what made you do not think like me now?

Frustration. I got sick of hating my own 'religion'. All of the sudden when i Let go of the whiskers and started following my own desire for truth, I found that God was with me all along. There's no formula. But If you want to know the truth and feel that disatisfaction inside, God will enter in if you let Him and your heart will become awake to your true self, where God wants you to know YOU and be free and satisfied. Words from the Bible become clear once you have the right spirit and it just all starts to make sense.

Let's put it this way. If God made all that is good and took time to make all the delicate intricasies of the universe, could you find it in your heart that someone that good may love you, and that the things you don't fully understand begin to make sense later. But it starts with just Believing God is good. The bible says, it is the GOODNESS" of God that leads people to repentance. You 'run' to a parent who loves you. You 'cringe' when the Godfather steps into the room.

The ‘CaseMan’!!!

LEE PATRICK STROBEL, better known as the Christian sequel ‘CaseMan’, is a writer and Christian APOLOGIST. He is best known for writing the semi-autobiographical books The CASE for Christ,
The CASE for Faith,
The CASE for Easter, and
The CASE for a Creator,

… which have sold a combined 4 million copies. Well, looks like you’re kind of stuck in a slavery of a different ‘hoax’ type.

4 million copies!!! That’s a lot of slaves, sorry, ‘hoax believers’!!!

This is exactly what I have stated before: NO DEBATE. This is a ‘bulk thinking’, ‘marketing’ session amongst members of a like-minded ‘bible inerrancy’ club.


About “… The Case for a Creator…”,

“The Case for a Creator consists of interviews with Intelligent design advocates and Christian apologists whose claims support the existence of a creator. The advocates interviewed in the chapters and their topic(s) of discussion are as follows:

- Intelligent design advocate and Unification church theologian Jonathan Wells presents a case against Darwinian evolution;

- Intelligent design advocate and philosopher of science Stephen C. Meyer discusses the relationship between science and religion, as well as the origin of life, arguing against the likelihood of abiogenesis without the assistance of a creator;

- Philosopher of religion William Lane Craig discusses the Big Bang and argues for a creator as first cause, invoking the Kalam cosmological argument;

- Philosopher Robin Collins discusses the anthropic principle and argues that the universe must be designed by a creator;

- Intelligent design advocate and astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez & Jay Richards present a case that the Rare Earth hypothesis supports Intelligent Design;

- Intelligent design advocate and biochemist Michael Behe discusses irreducible complexity in biology as an argument for a creator; and,

- Philosopher and theologian J.P. Moreland examines the supposed existence of consciousness separate from the brain, including near-death experiences, as an argument for a creator.

Although Strobel positions himself as a skeptic whom should ensure a balanced perspective on the issue, no scientists who oppose Intelligent Design were interviewed in the book.

Although the book purports to investigate scientific evidence for a creator, of the experts interviewed, only Wells, Gonzalez, and Behe possess graduate degrees in a scientific field. The remainder have graduate qualifications in theology and philosophy.

All of the experts interviewed are or have been in some way affiliated with the Discovery Institute, a conservative Christian think tank based in Seattle, Washington, that is the main proponent of Intelligent Design.

The book was made into a documentary film published by Ilustra Media, a company owned by the Discovery Institute. The DVD featured numerous extras, which all supported the idea of Intelligent Design, as opposed to evolution.”


Let’s see now:

Group I
Aristotle, Greek philosopher
Newton, physicist, mathematician, astronomer, alchemist, and natural philosopher
Galileo, physicist, astronomer, and philosopher
Darwin, naturalist
Planck, physicist
Bohr, physicist
Einstein, physicist
Hawking, physicist

Vs

Group II
Wells, Intelligent design advocate and Unification church theologian.
Meyer, Intelligent design advocate and philosopher of science.
Craig, Philosopher of religion.
Collins, Philosopher.
Gonzalez, Intelligent design advocate.
Richards, astronomer.
Behe, Intelligent design advocate and biochemist.
Moreland, Philosopher and theologian.


Whom or what did you suggest is being hoaxed?!?!?

Anyhow, won’t be buying the latest sequel ‘CASE’ book, and will keep reading up on the real people of Group I.

But hey, thanks for the heads-up!!!

I think you still think like me...

I stopped believing in Christianity.
However, I noticed that God was still in my mind ?
But then I also could notice that the God was myself.
Myself is with me all the time.
Instead of losing faith in the word God, I found the true one.

So now I believe in myself rather than in the invisible leader of us. And I feel so much better!

There is much more information than that 'single' book. There's a vast library of books that list evidences and solid facts about the circular reasoning behind evolution. Evolution is Scientifically, and By science I mean the true science of study and conclusive EVIDENCE, ridiculous and impossible. DNA from any life form cannot change. A Feather willNEVER turn into a scale. It's proposterous, and that's being nice. Mutations are defects and always 'hinder' a creature. Like a misformed child. Mutations are never improvments and not permanent to a species. And I know for an absolute fact that no one has ever witnessed any kind of 'evolution in a species. You want to talk fairy tails. How does one thing just magically change into another.

I won't debate it really. I only have THIS for you. I was prayed for and in Jesus name my spine was instantly loosed and cracked back into place from being a crooked spine. You can't scientifise God, He doesn't fit in your box. You don't want it and you won't like me for it, but I really truly out of love, feel sorry for those who don't understand who God truly is. You totally miss out. I pray that He will come to you and show you who He really is.

God bless you guys, for real.

This has no longer anything to do with faith, or legitimate personal beliefs.

This has nothing to do with intelligent conversations about religion(s) or faith(s).

Faith is not MARKETING!!!

Neither is faith a football game!!!
We're not going to the Super Bowl with this one!!!
We're not out to 'crush' the opponents!!!

Unlike football, there's is no score in this conversation of faith.

Faith need not be founded on anything. But 'radical fundamentalists' can't seem to grasp the incredible power of true faith. They insist on founding and proving their fate!

Why? We'll neve know!

They insist on 'righting' everyone, and 'winning' every 'game' they 'play', with real or imaginary opponents or subjects, and get to the 'Super Bowl' in the sky!

If they have no opponents, they make them up! Their bible is no meant for insiring them, it is meant to provoke an opponent and a 'game', in order to score some souls, ... sorry goals!

Give it up!

Read-up on the 'monkey trial', first part of the 20th century, (1920-25 or so). The essential religious tantrum was all spent way back then, evolution represents no threats to faith. Only the 'radical fundamentalists', with their 'inerrancy straight jackets' still can't seem to grasp that.

Free yourselves up from 'inerrancy', and LIVE your faith as a joy, instead of a perpetual battle.

You have chosen to live with this 'inerrancy straightjacket', stop pulling the Christian community, and the rest of the world into you delusion.

You wish to believe in a litteral personnal interpretation of the bible for yourself, go for it!!! The rest of he Christian community (1,2 billion people), and the rest of the world (about 5,4 billion) doesn't !!!

Voil,

Thanks for the synopsis of the “Case Man”.

I’ve heard all of those arguments before.

I actually agree with some of them, but not in their technical details. I’m not against intelligent design. After all, I do believe that the universe has a mystic spiritual element. So I am a religious person. I do believe in ‘god’, it’s just not the picture depicted in the Bible of an egotistical judgmental person-like godhead. None of the arguments for intelligent design actually supports any Biblical picture anyway.

So arguments of ‘intelligent design’ aren’t going to send me running to the Bible anyhow. They are just going to verify my existing picture of god.

However, I might add also, that I don’t agree with all of the arguments for intelligent design. Especially those that revolve around Biological Evolution, Rare Earth Theories, and the Anthropic Principle. Those arguments hold no water because they are based on false premises.

In fact, the reasons I have for believing in a possible intelligent design aren’t even popular because they require heavy mathematics to communicate them properly. They are based on atomic recombination, and quantum field theory. Even so, they wouldn’t be compatible with the Biblical picture of God anyway.

nuenjins,

You wrote,
"... I was prayed for and in Jesus name my spine was instantly loosed and cracked back into place from being a crooked spine."

I'm genuinely grateful to life, and very happy for you. That is a great testimony of the power of faith.

But please explain to me how 'evolution' threatens that gift of faith you were blessed with.

I thank God for my blessings every day!!! And believe me, I feel no need to go on a mission against evolution, or homosexuals, or any other perceived threats, or imagined danger, or fabricated fears to 'FIGHT' for 'my' god. My god doesn't ask that of me.

Speak your blessings. I get touched by that. As for the perceived threats and fears, it just has nothing to do with faith.