I just came from another thread that sparked an idea. I didn’t want to hijack that thread so I thought I’d start a new one.

The idea has to do with the chances of being lucky enough to have been the sperm that made it to the egg. Out of a large number of sperm YOU were the LUCKY one?

Is that really true?

Where do spirits come from?

Does every sperm have a separate spirit?

What happens to all the sperm that never reach an egg? Are they doomed spirits never to live?

Or does the spirit come into being at conception? In which case it really wouldn’t matter which sperm made it to the egg. The sperm merely determines the physical DNA of the body but the spirit wasn’t placed into the egg until after it became fertilized?

These are interesting questions.

I have my own answers to these questions, but I thought I’d just toss it out here to see what other people think.

When is a spirit born? Do sperms have spirits? Do unfertilized eggs have spirits? Do they BOTH have separate spirits which means that a single human being would then have two spirits living in the same body?

Hmmm? Kind of interesting isn’t it?

When do you think the spirit comes into being?

I have no facts, just feelings, and I feel spirit is always present, and takes on human form at fertilisation, at conception.

It always was, it just enters human form.

In My Humble Opinion... a human being is created at conception. As the famous french geneticist that developed the vaccine for polio put it "If the fertilized egg were not human then something else would have to be added later. Since this is not the case then the embryo is fully human." Make sense? It sure does to me. Any arguments??

I believe in God and God has placed determined design. I don't believe God would design the automatic, natural destruction of human-kind. Eggs are wasted as well as sperm without human determination. Therefore, there is no life yet until conception.
This is my theory, and I'm sticking to it!!

Sounds good to me Surfer.

And Jess basically described my view precisely.

the egg by itself, and the sperm by itself does not have a spirit
now in conception these two biological entities would not have any spirit whatsoever if it weren't for the action of God who blows life into the fetus.
my sole opinion

So far everyone seems to be in agreement.

My question wasn’t really a religious one so much. It was actually sparked by the suggestion that we were lucky to have been one of a million possible sperm that made it to an egg. However, if the belief is that we actually came to be after conception then it wouldn’t have mattered which sperm made it to which egg. No matter what DNA combines the same single spirit will be born. So in that picture every spirit has 100% chance of conception.

The other thing that it interesting is that are gender also has nothing to do with our spirit. The gender is in the DNA, not in the spirit. Of course we already knew that. But I think most people somehow think that their gender will be preserved in the spiritual form. Or that somehow there is something more to being a male or female other than because of to genetics. Obviously spirits are genderless.

This opens up a whole new can of worms for the question of homosexuality. Red is going to jump on this one I’ll bet.

If spiritually we are genderless then why should god be concerned about same-gender intimacy? He's only concerned with our spirit right? Not with the flesh.

Hmmmm? Interesting.

biologically, it does not matter what egg or sperm because the genetical material is the same. It's the same information.
I may get in trouble as well for this statement, but i really don't believe that homosexuals are born homosexuals, I believe that is choice.
But no to stay out of topic, it's important to note that genetics just play a 50% of what we are, there are other factors such as environment and experiences which finally define who we are as people.

Miguel wrote:
"biologically, it does not matter what egg or sperm because the genetical material is the same. It's the same information."

I could be wrong because it's been a long time since I took genetics. But I thought I had learned that all eggs have two X chromosomes and the Y chromosomes only exist in some of the sperm.

In other words, I thought that the sperm determined the sex? So the sex of the individual would be decided by which sperm made it to the egg.

I suppose it doesn’t really matter. If the idea is that God is placing spirits in fertilized eggs one could always argue that God would simply only place the correct gendered spirits in the correct eggs anyway.

Just saying that gave me a chill.

I mean, the idea that even after we have figured out the whole process of evolution and genetics here we are still talking about a magical God ultimately intervening and overseeing each individual process.

I somehow feel like I’ve just backslid into the dark ages again.

That is human form spirits.

In some cultures they believe there are spirits in trees, plants, the sea, rock forms ...blah

all i have to say is it could have been worse,you could have ended up as just a wet spot on the bed

Hahaha JT, you dag....and I love it hahaha

Sin wrote:
“In some cultures they believe there are spirits in trees, plants, the sea, rock forms ...blah”

That’s the pantheistic view that all is spirit. I think the fact that you used the plural ‘spirits’ shows that you don’t understand how they think of this. Most westerners think of ‘individual’ spirits as egos that will someone be preserved for all of eternity always and forever retaining their individuality.

When pantheists think of everything as spirit they aren’t thinking in terms of individual egotistical entities. The spirit is in everything. However, since it is in everything then it is manifest in a way that appears to us to have an individuality all its no. But the pantheists understand that individuality is but an illusion. And this includes all individuality even in humans.

In fact, this is fitting for this thread because this is a major difference in the ways of thinking. Western (or more properly) middle eastern religions think in terms of ego. All humans are thought to be individual egos that are created at the time of their birth (they did not exist prior to that), yet they will be preserved for all of eternity as an individual ego in either heaven or hell after their body dies. In other words, they believe that their individual egotistical spirit is created with the birth of their body but they exists forever even after their body dies. Where their spirit spend eternity will depend on the egotistical godhead that created them.

That’s their view. It’s all based on the concept of individual egos including the godhead.

The pantheist view is that there is no godhead. All are spirit. All is one. They believe that spirit is eternal and merely takes various forms in physical reality over and over again for all of eternity (there’s actually more to the picture but it would be a huge side-track to get into that here). There are no spiritual egos. There is no single egotistical godhead. There is only the eternal spirit. And because it is the eternal spirit that is creation then everything in creation is indeed a manifestation of the spirit. Does that mean that rocks have consciousness? Of course not. But whoever said that spirit must always be conscious in all of it’s forms. You fingernail is certainly a part of you. Does that mean that it has a mind of it’s own?

The pantheistic view is hard for westerners to grasp because they can only think in terms of spiritual ego.

Man is a spirit that dwells in a body and possesses a soul. This is my learned observation. I see the spirit as a created entity, not a creator though it is creative in an expressive sense. The body is a procreative and temporal vessel. The soul is the ethereal vessel of will and self determination. I believe the soul to be immortal, not eternal. To be eternal, the soul must have no beginning. the spirit also I view as immortal and not eternal. My view is that the spirit influences the soul and the soul determines the willful expression of itself through the actions of the body. The spirit of man may become transmuted by intelligent design and become subjective to the will of the soul. Where the spirit goes, the soul follows. My experience in this life has lead me to the conclusion I have chosen to follow to the end of my time in this temporal carnal vessel. That is to allow the Spirit of God that has come into my heart by my willful allowance and assumed influence over my soul to fill my soul with Its knowledge and understanding in terms of my mission, purpose and objective. Where it goes, my soul will follow, and there I will be. I believe also that the spirit is pre-existent to the body, and the soul is pre-existent to the body.

at conception I would think.. as the fetus grows.. so too does it's soul.. mapping all the events to come!

but that's JMO!

I don't read into that mumbojumpo Abracadabra...maybe I am ignorant or wise and for my own spiritual understanding, only for me, and not for everyone else. So I am not saying you are wrong, no, just saying don't care to read into something alien to me or something that don't come naturally to me.

As a polynesian girl, for example, my people do respect the sea or ocean or other forms in nature. Why? We just do. My ancestors were seafarers, they travel the oceans and seeks the spirits of that nature to protect them on their journeys. That force is felt when near the sea growing up. Whatever that is, ...no matter where I am in the world, I still feel that when I am near the sea. I don't have a better explanation just what I felt and respect for my belief as a South Sea islander

imho, the spirit and soul of a person begins development at conception but is never fully developed during our lifetime. we grow and our spirit our soul expands greatly as we age. unlike our physical being which matures quickly, our inner being grows faster the older we get until mental decline overtakes us.

i believe that for many people as they age they are better able to absorb and incorporate the beauty of the others who surround and influence them and this is what binds us all together spiritually and interestingly makes us all unique.

it is a personal growth so it varies but in general i believe capacity increases as the spirit grows.

at conception we are still a seed - in youth a seedling - in midlife we are strong and vigourous and as we age if we realize our potential we are able to become wise.

I honestly thought the strongest lil swimmers made it to the egg.....and if they could burrow into the egg sac....bam conception happens....As far as the spirit would totally have to agree with the walker-meister.

Abra writes:

"Or does the spirit come into being at conception? In which case it really wouldn’t matter which sperm made it to the egg. The sperm merely determines the physical DNA of the body but the spirit wasn’t placed into the egg until after it became fertilized?"

If the spirit comes into being at conception, what about identical twins, two beings who were one at conception and often as embryos, who then split? What about cojoined twins, which happens then monozygotes split much later?

Some folks also raised the question of homosexuality and choice in relation to genetics. I'd ask them this-- where and when did you make your choice to be heterosexual? And further, what choices were affored people affected by the many types of intersex conditions? What about genetic chimeras?

See, there's no such thing as a simple, one-answer-fits-all when it comes to Mother Nature. She seems to pay Religion no mind even as Religion pays her none.


-Kerry O.