Roddimus-

Re: "Maybe the truth is during a time of strife, the people needed a savior and thats what they made jesus out to be, or maybe thats what jesus made himself out to be. Someone to give people hope. "

This is, to me, the most likely scenario... people wanted and needed a "messiah" and so they created one or he created himself... there are many other possibilities, including that Jesus was of some "other" origin... but this seems the most likely to me.

As far as you missing the fellowship of others who share your beliefs, I felt the same way and so I frequently attend my local Unitarian Universalist Church. There are many misconceptions about what unitarian universalism is- basially it is a place that seeks to foster an support community without espousing any one creed or set of beliefs. Eg according to

www.uua.org:

"If you're searching for a religious home that is guided by a quest for truth and meaning, not by a set creed or dogma, we invite you to discover Unitarian Universalism. We are a caring, open-minded religious community that encourages you to seek your own spiritual path. Unitarian Universalist congregations are places where people gather to nurture their spirits and put their faith into action by helping to make our communities—and the world—a better place."

I would encourage you or anyone who would like a place to share their spirituality and enjoy a sense of fellowship without any judgements, preconceptions or religious laws to visit a UU Church.

cant help ya there onasis. i dont attend any church that has a 501c3 tax exemption. As for Jesus, He is a God of Action. Other gods are gods of enlightenment, ect. When one prays to Jesus, You will get an answer. What other god offers this? besides, all the archeology that has been done confirms every aspect of the bible story. the other so called Gods were without exception creations of a man by thier own admission. HMMMM

ram......

very well said.....

Maybe you might be referring to the mountain range where it is said the ark resides or the flat topped mountain structure that is said to be whats left of the tower of babil. Then of course the red glass in st.peters bascillica that is said to be jesus's blood transformed when it was left at the crucifixion sight.

I fail to see how these artifacts offer proof of the miracles of christ and god, or are possibly the findings of biased archeologists.
On a further note, any figure in the bible who's claimed to see an act of god or hear gods voice could of possibly had a mental illness or been under the effects of drugs.

All i can say for a definite truth as your beliefs are rooted in faith. Like any other religion. I myself maintain my own spirituality and have faith, i just surround mine with the three fundamentals of philosophy.

I think therefore i am,
where did i come from,
where am i going,

The first being the most important the others being journey's of infinite proportions.
Because of this, any religion in the world that is followed will never offer you 100% clarity, there will always be questions that need answers, so i simplified my faith into what i know, keeping morals and ethics i learned from christianity, buddhism, taoism, ...etc are the basics for anyone in leading a good life, second maintaining my spirituality and humbling myself to a higher power are essential for my state of mind, this is what gives me hope. third reminding myself of the things i'm grateful for in this life gives me satisfaction and contentment. fourth i pray to my mysterious creator for the common sense and will to motivate me on a day to day basis. "yes without giving god a label i still find my prayers answered." and last and most important, actions will always speak louder than words.

Bill-

What other gods were "a creation of man by their own admission"?

Answered prayers? I don't know what you mean. As a child I certainly asked Jesus/God to make things happen and generally they did not, I asked God to make certain things stop happening and they generally continued. So if "god answered" this child's prayers the "answer was no"?

As a grown person I believe:

"Praying is not about asking. It is about listening... It is just opening your eyes to see what was there all along."

Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche

So I'm not looking for God to actually come and directly answer my prayers. God created me with a mind and body so I could figure out most things for myself. For the rest I look to my friends and family for help (=other creations from God and so "answers to prayers"?).

Roddimus, I do share your opinion in most aspects (i'm an atheist, not an agnostic).

In term of ethics, i'd put it this way : precisely because i believe there's nothing after death, i have the highest respect for life. that's the roots of ethics for atheists. from there, you may build at least as strong morals as the ones christian's pretend to have, and in many instances fail to respect.

Rambill wrote:
“When one prays to Jesus, You will get an answer. What other god offers this?”

All gods offer this Bill. What makes you think they don’t?

And like Anoasis has also pointed out, many people have faithfully prayed to Jesus with no results, myself included, I was a very sincere Christian at one time. My prayers were very sincere and I was asking for things for other people but my prayers went unanswered. Or, as Anoasis suggests perhaps the answer was no, but if the answer is no then the prayer is ultimately unanswered.

Anoasis also points out that prayer is about listening, not asking. We are supposed to pray that god’s will be done, not our will. And in this sense of prayer my god answers all my prayers because she is constantly guiding me through life. I don’t ask for things. God isn’t Santa Claus.

I view god in a way that is totally alien to anything the Bible suggests, yet god is very real for me. She touches me directly. So when you ask what other god offers this, I can assure you that my god is very real. It doesn’t matter that you pray to Jesus, my god can hear you no matter who you think you are dialing through. So when she answers your prayers it’s only in spite of the fact that you went through a third party and not because of it. That’s how I see it.

One interesting thing that you left out regarding prayer. Is that just because they are not always answered doesn't mean that is not exactly what should happen. Remember prayers are answered according to what He sees fit not you. Now I can say that I am a prayer warrior and I can honestly say that I have only had one prayer not answered.

I know in my heart of hearts and deep the depth of my soul that my Lord and Savior does hear all prayers and that they are answered according to Him not us. I also know that no prayer is to small, and people that feel he is either to busy or not going to hear their prayers that it is just not so.

Feralcatlady wrote:
“Remember prayers are answered according to what He sees fit not you.”

If you sincerely believe that then why bother praying at all? Surely god already knows what he wants and doesn’t need your input.

Abra:

ok I can't help this one "Well Duh"....If you don't ask why should he bother answering at all. The Lord looks highly on those who seek and ask of him....And what I mean by when he sees fit and not you. Say for example you as The Lord God to please save your husband from cancer....Now it might not be answered right away as to use that person to bring others to the Lord. For their is not greater testimony then that of miracles. And you see them all the time. I will give you another answer that happen to me. When my mom was dying of cancer and I was in her backyard I was not even a believing person at this time. I asked the Lord God if you are real then show me a sign that my mom is going to be alright if you take her. Now I was in the desert Lancaster at the time and the sky was as blue as blue can be not a cloud in the sky...As soon as I asked a funnel cloud of blues, greens, pinks funneled down to me.....that was a sign if ever I saw one.

Now a few weeks later I came home from my moms to get a few things done and was out in my driveway. Again I asked the Lord God for a sign that he would keep her and take care of her. Just at that moment thousands yes I said thousands of lil lavendar (moms and my fav color)butterflies were all around me. I could just reach out and touch them....they were there and instantly they were gone......another sign. I received a call from my dad 10 minutes later that she had passed.....

Now this is why I say to you that what I speak is from my own personal experiences and I have so many many more. And again I say to you Abra God does know me and has known me since I was a seed planted in my mothers womb......but again that pecky freewill will always have a place in the human makeup of all man. And God will never answer prayers of the unbelieving and that you can rest assure.

Skidoo wrote:
“(i'm an atheist, not an agnostic).”

There were times when I was an agnostic, but I could never be an atheist. However, part of that comes down to semantics. What exactly do we mean by “god”?

If we’re talking about gods of mythology like the deity described in the Bible then yes, I’m definitely an atheist. I don’t believe in an egotistical godhead that is person-like and has wants and needs, and can knowingly reach into the universe and change things at whim like a magical Santa Claus.

So yes, if that’s what we mean by “god” then I’m definitely an atheist too. I’m absolutely certain that such a god cannot possibly exist. Especially not with the frail egotistical mindset of the God depicted in the Bible. That God is nothing but an arrogant spoiled brat who gets pissed off when things don’t go his way. He screwed up creation and then won’t even take responsibility for it. He’s obviously a male chauvinist, bigoted in many ways, and even has a chosen people which is an absurd notion for a god that supposedly created the entire universe. So to me, any such picture of a God necessarily must be fantasy.

However, if we move way from that limited egotistical person-like type of godhead into a more spiritual type of entity then the idea of god becomes more rational. Notice that I use a lowercase ‘g’ when I speak of this god because this god is not an egotistical one. In this view of god, god is the universe. Do you believe that the universe exists? If you do then you believe in this god.

Does this god have a consciousness? Well, ask yourself this, “Do you have consciousness?” If so, what are you? Where did you come from and what are you?

Well, If you look around and go solely by what is known today it is clear that you came out of this universe. You are this universe perceiving itself. Therefore the universe has consciousness.

Since we have already stated that god is this universe then it’s clear that god has consciousness. However, in this picture it’s not an egotistical consciousness. In other words, you are god. But you are not the king of the universe. Instead you are the universe itself perceiving itself. You are no different than everyone else. Everyone is a part of the same entity (the universe). To believe that you are somehow separate from everything around you is naïve. How can you be separate from that which you are?

You might say, “So I’m a collection of atoms. I already knew that. That’s what I mean when I say that I’m an atheist”.

But no, that’s not what I’m saying. To believe that you are a collection of atoms is just to give atoms individual existence. We are fortunate enough to know that even atoms have no individuality. Nothing is separate from the whole.

“Yes”, you say, “But that still doesn’t change the fact that I’m just a fleeting existence of this form for a momentary length of time. When my physical body dies and this form fails to exist then I too will cease to exits because all that I am is this form that I currently have”.

So then you believe that all you are is form? That form alone can perceive? What is it that experiences this form? The form itself?

I don’t wish to get into the circular arguments of redundancy here. So instead I’ll just explain how I view things.

Yes, we are currently in a form in this universe, just like a wave takes shame in the ocean. And no different.

When the ocean calms to a perfectly smooth surface has the essence of the waves gone away? Certainly the form of the waves is gone, but not the essence of their being. If you believe that you are noting more than a wave in this ocean we call the universe, then why do you not believe that you could be a wave again? Are you really just the wave? Or are you the ocean?

I personally believe that the essence of my existence is the ocean. I am this universe. Everything that I am came from the universe, and everything that I am will go back into it. My true nature is not the physical form that I am currently experiencing, my true nature is the ocean of form itself.

This is the essence of pantheism, and it is how I view the universe as god. Not an egotistical god, but a god of pure spirit and form.

Abra;

When you say that God's response to prayer being "No" is the same as a prayer unanswered - isn't that a contradiction unto itself? Why is an unfullfilled desire defined to be an unanswered prayer? How - (in your own words) - do you define prayer? Just curious, because you say "She" always answers your prayers - but "He" didn't.

Feralcatlady wrote:
"If you don't ask why should he bother answering at all."

I don't believe in a Santa Claus God.

I only asked the Santa Claus God for one very simple thing my entire life long from my late teens to the very day my mother died about two years ago. I'm 58 years old now. So we're talking over a half a century of asking one simple prayer that was never answered. You certainly can’t say that I didn’t have patience.

It's too late to answer that prayer now as my mother is gone.

So Santa Claus failed to deliver on one little tiny request of unselfish love.

I have no other requests of god. Pure and simple.

i agree abra, i think 2 many people believe that their god (whoever it is) is a year-round santa

Eljay wrote:
“Just curious, because you say "She" always answers your prayers - but ‘He’ didn't.”

Because these are two differnet pictures of god.

The God of the Bible is a Santa Claus God.

The god of pantheism is not.

Like Anoasis had mentioned, there are differnet ways to view ‘prayer’.

If you view prayer from the point of view of asking for things (the Christian point of view) then you’re viewing God as some kind of Santa Claus who will actually reach into reality and change the course of things.

However if you view prayer from the point of view of listening to god (the pantheistic point of view), then all your prayers will be answered because god will guide you rather than answer your requests.

These are two entirely different philosophies.

In one, God is person-like and can physically reach into reality and change thing at HIS will.

In the other, god is spirit-like and works through human beings via THEIR will.

Eljay
My Brother;
When we talk about God,we are talking about the Universe.Our activities and lives are connected together.So every single change in your live,salary,health...etc will affect somebody else's live.
Another point is sometimes we think that something will be good for us,but actually it isn't.
And please don't forget we live in a very small world for a short time, to get the ticket for the real life.Ofcourse we have to live our life as good as we can,but all the problems are chances for the improvement of our soul.

He is always with you,as near as your heart and even closer.

Did you think that howmany times he helped and saved you during your life?But this is the characteristics of all the human kind if somebody wroks for us for 40 years,but makes a mistake at the end,we will always remember just the mistake.

Sometimes I look at the answers and I want to say God they know not what they speak. However, that is also not fair becuase I am always says that you can believe whatever you want.....

Abra:

Are you new.....God and Santa Claus...now that is funny.

See you can ask God for prayers answered all you want....But if it doesn't come from the right place when asked then it will never happen. I kind of look at it like this. People are fine to bash God and call him names...Then when something tragic happens in their life they either reach out to God or blame God. When you ask God for a prayer your not just asking for something per say.....you are giving that circumstance over to him. In lies the big different.....I can say Lord don't let my husband die just like I would ask for the carton of milk at the convenience store. Or I can give the situation over completely with everything that I am and know in my heart of hearts and to the depth of my being that he will never forsake me....that he will always be their for me. And not only that but it also comes from relying on his word, and when times are tough going to the Bible for the answers.

So Abra when you asked the Lord God for over a century for the same prayer you have to ask yourself.....why is he not answering me...what is he trying to tell me....and then you should of listened.....really listened....and prayed and prayed and read and asked and annoited him....and you did not...And honestly it again doesn't matter what you want.....you can want all you want but if your heart is not in the right place....then as Emril says BAM....it is done.

And I am soo sorry for the loss of your mother, as I to went through that with mine....But see for me it wasn't a matter of how God was going to take care of her...I new he would it was a matter of when....I also after the intial pain was over realized that people left behind are selfish cuz their in a better place....So baisically if you treat God like Santa Claus you will never get anything or peace or nada, nilch nothing from the everlasting God.


prayer

A reverent petition made to God. The act of making a reverent petition to God. An act of communion with God.

first of all, you have to seperate the forced pagan holidays that call themselves Christian from the truth of God's
Christianity.

And second...NO ! Jesus is the soon to return Messiah.

You don't have to believe, but you'd better be sure you're
right.

God bless...

third...God doesn't say "believe only if it all makes sense to you".
God says simply..."believe" -that's faith, and that's the root of the Christian walk.

think about a girlfriend/boyfriend...everything they do does not make rational sense-and yet we love them. and we love them because they love us, and we have faith that they mean it when
they say it, and we believe that they want what's best for us.
we just believe. That's all God is asking of us.
but it's understandable that we find reasons to doubt what we are afraid of.

questioning is supposed to make you want to find the answers...
not talk smack in the hope of turning others away as well.

Thank you for yourinput tinabelle...and very nicely put I might add.