God doesn't forgive us just because we ask; we aren't saved by repentance, we are saved by Grace. Jesus died on the cross to save mankind from the prison that had been created for Satan and his minions. Jesus became a man, not an angel.

But here's my take. Repentance leads us to seek our savior, Jesus Christ. We can only receive salvation through Jesus. Repentance is a gift of the Spirit. Out of creation, only mankind was given a spirit like the one that Jesus and the Father share. So only mankind has the capacity to repent and seek a savior. I believe that repentance is to Satan as love is to a scorpion. In both cases, it is against their nature to desire or use the emotion, it is completely alien to their basic nature.

Spider brings up a point I actually came back to make.

The point; that God came in the form of man for the sole purpose of providing an avenue, by which, the soul of man(humans), could move into a perpetual, immortal existance.

Several questions arise at this thought.
1. The idea of hell that is set forth in the Bible is a concept of having to 'exist through eterninty NOT in the sight of God'.
2. Does that mean we all still continue on after death?
3. Does that mean there are other gods and by choosing the god of Abraham one would become a follower in the relm of that god for eternity?
4. If we don't choose a god, are we choosing freedom for eternity?

Then there are the questions of why, of all the creatures created by 'God', would that god choose us to save?

After all, we are far from perfect, in fact, there is nothing about this physical body that could last forever. And the idea of existing in the limited state of this physical human body for eternity, is not my idea of heaven.

Also, how can any, so-called, 'sin' that is committed ONLY because we are at the mercy of having to exist in this particular physical body in this particular physical realm, even be considered as something to be forgiven. Those sins occur due to the natual state of our being, in the physical.

Consider for a moment. An entire history of humanity. Mult-billions of souls, billions, who's experience in this realm was,and whose life was limited to a matter of minutes, days, only a few short years.

Now consider that YOU must choose which of these souls will be entitled to eternal life. What I'm about to say is not meant to be offensive to any specific individual or group of individuals. Any weak or feeble minded person can believe in God and pray and ask for forgiveness. Does that mean that the pre-requisit to having eternal life in the sight of God is based of one's ability to 'follow direction, faithfully'and nothing else?

That concerns me, being part of a hive community in which one is simply a drone is just not what I consider an eternity in heaven.

Forgivenes of Satin - next post please.

Those who believe that there are actual beings called angels, and actual beings called humans must consider that there are likely other beings that we simply are not aware of. What reason would we have to know of other beings whose existence has nothing to do with us?

Why would we be the select among all these creations? Why would we be singled out for a gracious eternity of bliss in the sight of God?

This idea always conjures up thoughts pointing to experimentation. Why would God need to experiment? If God is all THAT, as believers say, then why are they not concerned that their God had to perform experiments and how can God know he’s finally gotten the results desired, unless God is more subjective that one believes. I would not choose to follow, in an experimental course, Einstein or Newton, or Hawkins for eternity, why would I choose to participate in the experiments of any god, especially one who seems to love the feeble and weak mind above all others.

Perhaps the experiment with angels went wrong. Perhaps God gave them more power than It could possibly handle and perhaps making them, eternal beings, required an intense course of logic.

Now the experiment with angels proves that too much individuality and not enough submission was It' greatest mistake. But how to rid Itself of the bad angels?

So creating humans and giving them souls whose immortality was conditional was the beginning of the game afoot. Once the being was developed to Its' liking, It sent Jesus to state the ‘conditions’ for an eternity with It.

Once enough souls have been secured, through acceptance of their own free will, for the journey at hand, It gathers all these souls and simply creates a whole new realm in which to exist along with all the faithful followers. Leave the angels behind, including the good, for they will keep in balance that ‘individual’ nature of Satin in this universe.

Once the new realm of existence is set up, God begins again, and all those submissive souls who signed the contract with God, become the new angels of the new realm.

And what will Gods’ new experiments involve, and what will the submissive angelic creatures be asked to do?

I still think the idea of Satin gets a bad rap. After all, how could God create such evil, allow such evil, or why would It do so. And if there is forgiveness, perhaps it was not part of the contract Satin signed.

When reading lengthy contracts, such as the Bible, I have one thing to say.

CAVEAT LECTOR!

Redykeulous,

"I still think the idea of Satin gets a bad rap. After all, how could God create such evil, allow such evil, or why would It do so. "

That is what I discussed in the thread "Theodice". God allows free will, which has the side effect that those with free will can commit evil. Evil does not exist as a thing, so evil was not created by God. Evil is created each time someone decides to go against God's will. Satan is evil, but that was his choice, not how God made him. God allows evil, because God allows free will.

If my fingers type the word Satin instead of Satan - it's not my fault.

Spider, sorry, I was typing and your post had not yet appeared.

I was actually addressing those who believe Satan and Angels to be seperate and actual beings,as apart from God as humans are consedered to be.

As for the idea of evil - I guess that's all just a matter of which sin you choose on any given in any given situation.

What is the purpose of asking to be forgiven for a lie, when that lie protected the life or lives of others?

Redykeulous,

==============================================================
"I was actually addressing those who believe Satan and Angels to be seperate and actual beings,as apart from God as humans are consedered to be."
==============================================================

I'm not sure what that means. I believe that Satan and his minions are actual beings who are angelic in nature. I believe that Satan and his minions are further from God than humans can be. They are irredeemable, they cannot be saved.

==============================================================
"What is the purpose of asking to be forgiven for a lie, when that lie protected the life or lives of others?"
==============================================================

The obvious choice would be to lie to protect life. Abraham did it and so did Rahab. Although this shows a lack of trust in God, because if you trusted God, you wouldn't feel the need to lie to protect the lives of others. Personally, I would lie to save the lives of others, but I would regret that I had sinned. The two are not incompatable, you can do something wrong to achieve a greater good, but it doesn't change the fact that you sinned.

Spider you wrote:
"Personally, I would lie to save the lives of others, but I would regret that I had sinned. The two are not incompatable, you can do something wrong to achieve a greater good, but it doesn't change the fact that you sinned."

What happened to 'go and sin no more'. If you are aware of a sin and commit anyway, but are sorry afterwards and regret your 'choice' all you need to is say a quick prayer and as that you be forgiven this time. And what of the next time, and the next?

Kat, brought up something early in this post. She brought up the issue of trust. She said can God ever 'trust' Satan again.

I submit the same logic with your theory. If you sin knowingly, again and again, when does the issue of 'trust' come into the picture? Or are we simply, by our nature, not to be trusted? And at that point rather than give up on us God granted redemption through Jesus.

I would pose the question then, just as the original post states, why are we the elite among all Gods creations? Why would God not grant forgiveness to an angel?

The angels,all of them, were also created by God. In fact He placed his 'trust' in them and then directed humans to respect and listen to the messeages they deliver to us.

So if we are supposed to 'forgive' the mass murderer or the pedifile and with faith that Gods'will be done, then we should allow the convicted, freedom among us. No matter how many times that person let's us down, or who is harmed in the process.

But we don't do that. Even those who 'claim' to forgive are not likely to live next door to that convicted, with any amount of ease, if they try at all.

But you say, that we can sin and sin and sin again even when we know that we are sinning.

AND THEN you have this idea that God Itself can't or won't ever forgive Satan or those angels that follow Satan.

I have to wonder about the state of mind of anyone who does not see irrational ideas of such logic.

As I said before, Satan gets a bad rap. How can anyone believe that God is all you say It is, and not consider that God is using Satan for His purposes. And in light of the multiplicity of sins that humans commit, but can be absolved from, what makes you think that in those 'end times'that Satan's defeat will not include his penitant heart and forgivenss by God?????

What's more, why is it ok to hate Satan? Why is Satan the unforgiven, why is not forgiving Satan OK, when the Bible requires that we not judge and that we forgive?

THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH CONTRADICTION when one attempts to be the knowledgable voice of god.

Redykeulous,

============================================================
"What happened to 'go and sin no more'. If you are aware of a sin and commit anyway, but are sorry afterwards and regret your 'choice' all you need to is say a quick prayer and as that you be forgiven this time. And what of the next time, and the next? "
============================================================

Living a sinless life is a goal, it's not reachable, but we should strive for it. Nobody has lived a sinless life. Nobody who is saved stops sinning completely. Nobody is perfect. What you are stating is a completely unrealistic expectation. Christians are sinners, just like everybody else. We are saved by Grace, not works and not the law.

============================================================
"I would pose the question then, just as the original post states, why are we the elite among all Gods creations? Why would God not grant forgiveness to an angel? "
============================================================

Because we were made in the image of God, for the glory of God. We are tested and those who pass will be raised above the angels. Angels don't have bodies that are given to sin. They don't have temptations like we do. Their ONLY temptation is from their own heart, their pride. It was pride that drove the angels to rebel. At least we humans have an excuse (flimsy as it is) that we have a body which loves sin, the angels have no excuse.

============================================================
"But you say, that we can sin and sin and sin again even when we know that we are sinning."
============================================================

No, you said that. If you love your sins, why should God forgive you? If you are about about your sinful ways, why should God save you? But if you fall into sin, if you get tempted away and then feel regret...that's all God expects of us. It's not a lot to ask, "Feel regret when you disobey me".

============================================================
"As I said before, Satan gets a bad rap. How can anyone believe that God is all you say It is, and not consider that God is using Satan for His purposes. And in light of the multiplicity of sins that humans commit, but can be absolved from, what makes you think that in those 'end times'that Satan's defeat will not include his penitant heart and forgivenss by God????? "
============================================================

Only God can create something from nothing. Only God can make good from bad, we can only make bad from good. The thread is really a moot point, because Revelations tells us how it will all end and Satan will not repent. That leads me to suspect that Satan isn't capable of repentance. Perhaps his pride is too great, I don't know.

============================================================
"What's more, why is it ok to hate Satan? Why is Satan the unforgiven, why is not forgiving Satan OK, when the Bible requires that we not judge and that we forgive? "
============================================================

We are told to not judge other people unfairly, Satan and his minions have already been judged. Once again: Without repentance, one will never seek a savior. Without Jesus, one is condemned to hell. Since we know that Satan and his minions will never seek repentance, the whole discussion is a moot point.

============================================================
"THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH CONTRADICTION when one attempts to be the knowledgable voice of god. "
============================================================

Your conclusion is that Christianity is a contradiction and you have worked backwards to find facts you can misconstrue to support your conclusion. I suggest you start from the other end and look at the fact before drawing a conclusion.

Sorry for interjecting here 'spider',

But I thought you would appreciate me correcting your misunderstanding of 'redykeulous' words, so that you can re-address your reply to 'redykeulous' in a manner that would be more saitsfying to you, and to all of us here reading this post of yours.

'Redykeulous' wrote:
"... THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH CONTRADICTION when one attempts to be the knowledgable voice of god. "
============================================================

To which you answered:
"... Your conclusion is that Christianity is a contradiction and you have worked backwards to find facts you can misconstrue to support your conclusion. I suggest you start from the other end and look at the fact before drawing a conclusion..."

Maybe you are doing several things and your concentration is affected, or maybe your skipping words. That happens when we assume to know what people mean, and stop paying attention to what they say or write.


When 'redykeulous' writes:
"... THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH CONTRADICTION when one attempts to be the knowledgable voice of god. "

She is not talking about contradictions in Christianity. She is IMO referring to contradictions and possibly confusion, occurring when someone attempts to be the knowledgeable voice of God. In this case, that would be you 'spider'.

Simply put, 'redykeulous' is suggesting that your preaching needs some serious fine-tuning. That your self admionistered mission of attempting to be the knowledgeable voice of god is 'manufacturing' some big time contradictions (and confusion, and repulsion. I'm adding that myself).

I think the lesson from 'redykeulous', which, if you accepted it would be a huge contribution to you, is that taking your delusion out of the way, would effortlessly allow the spirit to shine from your stories, instead of the contrived and overworked contradictions and confusion,
... which are not from spirit.

Just looking out for you 'spider', and wanting to keep on the right track!!!

its not about trust or the concept that G-d can forgive all. fact is that satan is a celestial being, an angel. only human beings are candidates for the cleansing of blood sacrifice according to the covenant G-d made with abraham. he cant be redeemed because he is not human. not only that it is a pointless hypothetical because prophecy states that satan will show no repentance even to the end of the age.

Voil
you wrote: "She is not talking about contradictions in Christianity. She is IMO referring to contradictions and possibly confusion, occurring when someone attempts to be the knowledgeable voice of God. In this case, that would be you 'spider'."

You have clearly and flawlessly interpreted my meanings. Knowing that my words are understood by anyone is extremely important to me - my gratitude is huge.

But I would like to make something clear, with regards to your comment in that quote.

"In this case, that would be you 'spider'."

I didn't specifically point in that direction with my post. I felt it was important to make the comments 'in general', and the reason is simple.

If others associate my comments as a 'personal responce' to someone, they may disregard the message. I wanted everyone to consider the message, thereby allowing or inviting, 'anyone', reading, the opportunity to see if the shoe fits!

I consider that an unforceful or unfundamenalist approach to my particular views. Some will check the size of the shoe, some will not.

Spider and Heatherae, have both explained to me that only Humans are clensed with from the spilling of Jesus blood.

What isn't clear is why only humans, amongst ALL of the creations. And if God did create angels, did he not know about pride? And how could there be pride in a being that doen't have physical form?

So is it basically, that Satan wanted to be the teachers pet but could not get all the attention, and that led to the fall of an angel?

And what are these doninians that are in the control of Satan? Also fallen angels?

I have trouble understanding how one angels anger at not being recognised, could possibly affect other angels?

Are they so stupid or mindless that they are so easily led astray?

And how can that be, I thought we were the only ones granted free will? Isn't that part of our special nature because we're human. Isn't that what Spider was just telling me?

And then there's the issue of Revelations. Can anyone understand, why it was necessary for God to leave a message that says that Satan will never be penitant and will never be forgiven?

The only purpose that ANY Christian that I know has ever assigned to it, was to solidify their belief that there really is a hell, and if you don't follow the law, God will NOT forgive, just as he did not forgive Satan, in the end.

Just my opinion, but to me, that's just another reinforcement of the heaven and hell scenario. Just another of those rather mind entrapping ideas one teaches to small children to make them obey.

'redykeulous',

"But I would like to make something clear, with regards to your comment in that quote.

"In this case, that would be you 'spider'."..."

Point well made, and point taken.

I added that in. It was out of place. I apologize to you, and to 'spider'

TAKE 2:

'redykeulous',

You wrote, regarding a comment I made in aprevious post:

"But I would like to make something clear, with regards to your comment in that quote.

"In this case, that would be you 'spider'."..."

I didn't specifically point in that direction with my post. I felt it was important to make the comments 'in general', and the reason is simple..."


Point well made, and point taken.

I added that in. It was out of place. I apologize to you, and to 'spider'.

VOIL -



I love this place, why don't all live in my neihborhood? Can you just imagine that great times we could have.

wait a minute - none of you are gossipers are you? No gossiping in my neighborhood. I mean, talk is ok if it's the truth, and if you have permission to pass it on, or if we need to know something for someone's benefit, but no drama - ok?

Yea, we could have a great neighborhood.

Oh and no blind dates - and

wait a minute, sounds like the rules of a home owners association. That't is - NO homeowners associations.

Meeting adjourned.

i respond with a quote

"there aint no devil its just god when hes drunk" - Tom Waits

Redy wrote, 'And then there's the issue of Revelations. Can anyone understand, why it was necessary for God to leave a message that says that Satan will never be penitant and will never be forgiven?

The only purpose that ANY Christian that I know has ever assigned to it, was to solidify their belief that there really is a hell, "'and if you don't follow the law, God will NOT forgive, just as he did not forgive Satan, in the end."'

No one can 'follow the law', and none could be saved if Jesus had not paid the price (death)for our sins.
We are saved by the Grace of God, thruogh faith in Jesus Christ.

I thought about counting the 'why' and 'how' questions here, but ran out of fingers and toes.

Thanks OleJeb,

Sorry I put such a tax on your fingers and toes.