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| Topic: Institutional Racism ? | |
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to keep things focused and in perspective
MY reference to institutional racism is best defined here: The term "institutional racism" describes societal patterns that have the net effect of imposing oppressive or otherwise negative conditions against identifiable groups on the basis of race or ethnicity http://civilliberty.about.com/od/raceequalopportunity/g/inst_racism.htm some examples found in one community were posted earlier in the thread I suppose though that instead of suspecting institutional racism I could break them all down into an assumption that maybe blacks aren't working as hard(leading to disparate poverty), or are just more Godless(leading to disparate incarceration rates), or just don't care as much about their health (leading to disparate medical treatment),,,etc,,,etc,, |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Mon 09/09/13 08:33 AM
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ACORN discriminates. But dats otay! oh, another clich� scapegoat? and where is the proof that the ACORN ORGANIZTION took part in institutional racism? all 'discrimination' aint bad when its aimed at equalizing instead of oppressing/excluding boy scouts 'discriminate', as do 'girl scouts' , as do 'athletic' scholarships,,,etc,,,etc,,,etc,, |
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Edited by
Leigh2154
on
Mon 09/09/13 10:14 AM
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. . .BUT minority controlled institutions practice institutional racism too, it just happens on a much smaller scale and, for obvious reasons, it is always referred to as institutional discrimination�A good example would be a minority-run local government�
^^^ What she said. By the way, it seems to me that a bit of a straw-man argument has been made. The OP doesn't say that institutional racism is extinct. Instead, it challenges particular claims of institutional racism. As I see it, way too many people cry "Institutional Racism!" before all other possibilities have been ruled out. That's true David and sometimes some people cry institutional racism without even understanding what it is...Sometimes they confuse it with individual racism,sometimes they confuse it with structural racism, and sometimes they use it as a way to work the system....Understanding it, learning how to recognize it, standing up to it when it happens, these are the only effective ways to control it.... It has been said that if the only tool in your tool box is a hammer, then all of your problems will look like nails to you. I suspect that some people cry "Racism!" because they don't know how to cope with problems that don't involve racism. Again, I don't mind someone crying "Racism!" if that person demonstrates that he/she has eliminated all other possibilities. and if there is indeed more than one possibility,, why do you insist RACISM must be the final one,,,as opposed to somewhere else in the list , based upon its reasonableness for instance, with sexism(another ism) If my boss has a habit of smacking the pretty females on the behind he COULD just have a rare culture where this is how females are greeted or those particular females COULD be sending him signals they enjoy that type of flirtations or he COULD be sexist ,,now tell me, if he IS sexist, why must someone observing it avoid that reason just because there could be others on the list? I didn't read what David said the same way you did...That could be analyzed, rationalized, and debated too, but why bother?...What purpose would it serve?...My understanding of his post is two fold...One, he is acknowledging the fact that institutional racism does exist and two, he is saying because of the subtleness of the action(s) involved and the seriousness of an accusation, one must use extreme caution in making sure they are right before pointing a finger...Your comparison or analogy is not good Harmony...All three examples you give would equal sexual harassment (sexism) in a court of law BECAUSE the action is from a supervisory employee to non-supervisory employee...Reasons for crossing the line in the example you give have no bearing on accountability...Your post just reinforces my belief that you do not fully understand institutional racism and its "root" cause.... I read the point fine, that others want to decide which 'reasons' take priority over other reasons if there is any other possible reason, the observer/participant must DISPROVE all other reasons before concluding there is racism or institutional racism my analogy reflects the egocentric nature of such a demand, considering someone can always come up with other potential reasons behind an action,, suggesting that not being able to DISPROVE any other reason must be the prerequisite to determining there is institutional racism involved seems like a polite, politically correct way, to tell people to avoid the elephant in the room at all possible costs,,,,,which isn't going to happen as far as my analoygy, it will only be harassment if someone feels HARASSED, which again will be subjective to the person filing/or not filing,, Harassment charges in a court so the analogy still stands,,,, I think I am maybe the only one in this conversation who has a clue what institutional racism is due to the fact of how many tangents and mis paraphrases others are going off into from the two basic points I made ONE: collectivist societies tend to have LESS OF A CORRELATION Between crime and poverty than Individualistic CULTURES do TWO: Institutional racism (racism at an institutional level, NOT racism within a business institution,,,,lol) are the result of prolonged bigotry and oppression within a culture that leaves certain oppressed group in an extended place at the BOTTOM of the societal rung and , ps, where in America do we have a 'minority run local government' that practices racism against non minorities on an institutional level? Not which reason takes priority, but which reason is justified!...Not disprove the possibility, "eliminate" the possibility of it being something OTHER THAN institutional racism....Think of the policies that enable institutional racism as being layered to the point of making them almost invisible...They're in there, but you have to dig to find them....It's wrong to claim institutional racism without first considering the many legitimate reasons for a turn down...This is only common sense...It's not a matter of rank by importance, it's rank by cause and effect!!!...Being overly defensive can often affect sound judgement.... IMO, your analogy was not even close.. 
And even though ACORN is no longer in operation (thank GOD!), it is still a good example of, not only a huge minority run government org, but one as guilty of institutional racism as it gets...The fact that they were shut down should be proof enough... You want a list?...Go state to state, city to city, county to county, you'll discover thousands...Contact Jackson and Sharpton, they will be happy to point you in the right direction...Do a little research...I'll even give you a hint Harmony...Think non-profit, think organizations that champion minority business endeavors, think The Black Chamber of Commerce all the way from the top down to state and local offices...You'll find what you are asking for and if you research it properly, I'm sure you will find plenty of examples of institutional discrimination... As far as the practice of institutional racism goes, I am IN AGREEMENT with you even if you are not able to accept the fact that blacks are guilty of it too.... |
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ACORN and it's discrimination is alive and well.
Only the names have been changed. |
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Edited by
Leigh2154
on
Mon 09/09/13 12:16 PM
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ACORN and it's discrimination is alive and well. Only the names have been changed.  Just one more example of how to work the system...
"As part of the effort by some chapters to stay afloat by severing ties with the national organization, members and staff of California ACORN founded a new organization, the Alliance of Californians for Community Empowerment,[8] New York ACORN members and staff founded New York Communities for Change, and an offshoot of the ACORN organization called Acorn Housing changed its name to Affordable Housing Centers of America yet has retained the same tax and employee identification numbers that it held under its former name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now Wish I could find a bag of that missing money.... |
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Beats hell outa that some folks scream bloody racism and all the while say it's otay for groups to discriminate as long as it benefits the negro.
Just a bit hypocritical, IMO. |
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ACORN and it's discrimination is alive and well. Only the names have been changed. Just one more example of how to work the system...
"As part of the effort by some chapters to stay afloat by severing ties with the national organization, members and staff of California ACORN founded a new organization, the Alliance of Californians for Community Empowerment,[8] New York ACORN members and staff founded New York Communities for Change, and an offshoot of the ACORN organization called Acorn Housing changed its name to Affordable Housing Centers of America yet has retained the same tax and employee identification numbers that it held under its former name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now Wish I could find a bag of that missing money.... 
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. . .BUT minority controlled institutions practice institutional racism too, it just happens on a much smaller scale and, for obvious reasons, it is always referred to as institutional discrimination�A good example would be a minority-run local government�
^^^ What she said. By the way, it seems to me that a bit of a straw-man argument has been made. The OP doesn't say that institutional racism is extinct. Instead, it challenges particular claims of institutional racism. As I see it, way too many people cry "Institutional Racism!" before all other possibilities have been ruled out. That's true David and sometimes some people cry institutional racism without even understanding what it is...Sometimes they confuse it with individual racism,sometimes they confuse it with structural racism, and sometimes they use it as a way to work the system....Understanding it, learning how to recognize it, standing up to it when it happens, these are the only effective ways to control it.... It has been said that if the only tool in your tool box is a hammer, then all of your problems will look like nails to you. I suspect that some people cry "Racism!" because they don't know how to cope with problems that don't involve racism. Again, I don't mind someone crying "Racism!" if that person demonstrates that he/she has eliminated all other possibilities. and if there is indeed more than one possibility,, why do you insist RACISM must be the final one,,,as opposed to somewhere else in the list , based upon its reasonableness for instance, with sexism(another ism) If my boss has a habit of smacking the pretty females on the behind he COULD just have a rare culture where this is how females are greeted or those particular females COULD be sending him signals they enjoy that type of flirtations or he COULD be sexist ,,now tell me, if he IS sexist, why must someone observing it avoid that reason just because there could be others on the list? I didn't read what David said the same way you did...That could be analyzed, rationalized, and debated too, but why bother?...What purpose would it serve?...My understanding of his post is two fold...One, he is acknowledging the fact that institutional racism does exist and two, he is saying because of the subtleness of the action(s) involved and the seriousness of an accusation, one must use extreme caution in making sure they are right before pointing a finger...Your comparison or analogy is not good Harmony...All three examples you give would equal sexual harassment (sexism) in a court of law BECAUSE the action is from a supervisory employee to non-supervisory employee...Reasons for crossing the line in the example you give have no bearing on accountability...Your post just reinforces my belief that you do not fully understand institutional racism and its "root" cause.... I read the point fine, that others want to decide which 'reasons' take priority over other reasons if there is any other possible reason, the observer/participant must DISPROVE all other reasons before concluding there is racism or institutional racism my analogy reflects the egocentric nature of such a demand, considering someone can always come up with other potential reasons behind an action,, suggesting that not being able to DISPROVE any other reason must be the prerequisite to determining there is institutional racism involved seems like a polite, politically correct way, to tell people to avoid the elephant in the room at all possible costs,,,,,which isn't going to happen as far as my analoygy, it will only be harassment if someone feels HARASSED, which again will be subjective to the person filing/or not filing,, Harassment charges in a court so the analogy still stands,,,, I think I am maybe the only one in this conversation who has a clue what institutional racism is due to the fact of how many tangents and mis paraphrases others are going off into from the two basic points I made ONE: collectivist societies tend to have LESS OF A CORRELATION Between crime and poverty than Individualistic CULTURES do TWO: Institutional racism (racism at an institutional level, NOT racism within a business institution,,,,lol) are the result of prolonged bigotry and oppression within a culture that leaves certain oppressed group in an extended place at the BOTTOM of the societal rung and , ps, where in America do we have a 'minority run local government' that practices racism against non minorities on an institutional level? Not which reason takes priority, but which reason is justified!...Not disprove the possibility, "eliminate" the possibility of it being something OTHER THAN institutional racism....Think of the policies that enable institutional racism as being layered to the point of making them almost invisible...They're in there, but you have to dig to find them....It's wrong to claim institutional racism without first considering the many legitimate reasons for a turn down...This is only common sense...It's not a matter of rank by importance, it's rank by cause and effect!!!...Being overly defensive can often affect sound judgement.... IMO, your analogy was not even close..
And even though ACORN is no longer in operation (thank GOD!), it is still a good example of, not only a huge minority run government org, but one as guilty of institutional racism as it gets...The fact that they were shut down should be proof enough... You want a list?...Go state to state, city to city, county to county, you'll discover thousands...Contact Jackson and Sharpton, they will be happy to point you in the right direction...Do a little research...I'll even give you a hint Harmony...Think non-profit, think organizations that champion minority business endeavors, think The Black Chamber of Commerce all the way from the top down to state and local offices...You'll find what you are asking for and if you research it properly, I'm sure you will find plenty of examples of institutional discrimination... As far as the practice of institutional racism goes, I am IN AGREEMENT with you even if you are not able to accept the fact that blacks are guilty of it too.... Here is another example of institutional racism: Crying "Racism!" without showing that you have ruled out all other possibilities. This particular form racism appears to me to be institutionalized among black Democrats in the USA. |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Mon 09/09/13 01:54 PM
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Dodo,, with respect
I don't expect you , in any case, to disprove other theories in order to give any consideration of your opinions I also, likewise, expect the same If I see something that seems to me to be a form of instititutional racism,, I will say so freely even if its so uncomfortable for others to talk about it that they insist I 'consider' some other rationale..... or even if they ASSUME that I don't consider other rationales and find them LESS LIKELY<,,, so, others are free to believe its likely that blacks , as a group, have a violent subculture that explains away their disparate incarceration rates and I am free to believe that theory is hogwash, (and as a member of the 'black community' , I might have some valid , personal, and reasonable 'considerations' in coming to that conclusion), and instead look to the HISTORY of the US to determine it is MORE LIKELY resulting from the institutional racism that lingers on from longstanding oppression, discrimination, and bigotry Leigh, in AMERICA,, blacks as a group have no power to have engaged in institutional racism that has oppressed some other GROUP in America which is the INSTITUTIONAL level of racism I am discussing, as opposed to individual or isolated incidents,,,, |
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Edited by
Leigh2154
on
Mon 09/09/13 04:31 PM
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Leigh, in AMERICA,, blacks as a group have no power to have engaged in institutional racism that has oppressed some other GROUP in America which is the INSTITUTIONAL level of racism I am discussing, as opposed to individual or isolated incidents,,,, That is a common misconception Harmony...Furthermore, the act of institutional racism does not come delivered in levels or degrees...Oppression is an effect of institutional racism that happens when it is practiced by several controlling groups and goes unchecked for long periods of time...Today, institutional racism, in and of itself, cannot cause oppression because there are too many laws that guard against it...Any racial, ethnic, or gender "group" in a position of authority can engage in the practice...Blacks can and do facilitate and participate in institutional discrimination against whites�It is only considered statistically rare when compared to institutional racism by whites in authority because of the disparity between whites in power and blacks in power�Also, it is much less effective because in most cases there is a white person somewhere above those blacks discriminators who will stop or correct the action before it can do much damage�So while I readily admit that blacks are not in a position to oppress or marginalize whites, that in no way rules out the fact that many blacks can and do practice institutional discrimination against whites�.. 
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Mon 09/09/13 04:57 PM
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Leigh, in AMERICA,, blacks as a group have no power to have engaged in institutional racism that has oppressed some other GROUP in America which is the INSTITUTIONAL level of racism I am discussing, as opposed to individual or isolated incidents,,,, That is a common misconception Harmony...Furthermore, the act of institutional racism does not come delivered in levels or degrees...Oppression is an effect of institutional racism that happens when it is practiced by several controlling groups and goes unchecked for long periods of time...Today, institutional racism, in and of itself, cannot cause oppression because there are too many laws that guard against it...Any racial, ethnic, or gender "group" in a position of authority can engage in the practice...Blacks can and do facilitate and participate in institutional discrimination against whites�It is only considered statistically rare when compared to institutional racism by whites in authority because of the disparity between whites in power and blacks in power�Also, it is much less effective because in most cases there is a white person somewhere above those blacks discriminators who will stop or correct the action before it can do much damage�So while I readily admit that blacks are not in a position to oppress or marginalize whites, that in no way rules out the fact that many blacks can and do practice institutional discrimination against whites�..
if there is a GROUP ,, that is affecting another GROUP At an institutional level,, this is the most common definition of INSTITUTIONAL RACISM referred to and the definition I use when discussing the issue isolated incidents where a black INDIVIDUAL acts in discrimination against another INDIVIDUAL is NOT What I am referring to to understand or discuss what I am TRYING hard to discuss, we need to speak in terms of GROUPS of people being ADVERSELY affected at an institutional level (like the institution of education, or marriage, or healthcare,, not a company that is considered an institution) which is not, IN AMERICA< going to refer to blacks adversely affecting whites as they don't have the control over EDUCATION, MARRIAGE, HEALTHCARE, etc,,, AS A GROUP 
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Leigh, in AMERICA,, blacks as a group have no power to have engaged in institutional racism that has oppressed some other GROUP in America which is the INSTITUTIONAL level of racism I am discussing, as opposed to individual or isolated incidents,,,, That is a common misconception Harmony...Furthermore, the act of institutional racism does not come delivered in levels or degrees...Oppression is an effect of institutional racism that happens when it is practiced by several controlling groups and goes unchecked for long periods of time...Today, institutional racism, in and of itself, cannot cause oppression because there are too many laws that guard against it...Any racial, ethnic, or gender "group" in a position of authority can engage in the practice...Blacks can and do facilitate and participate in institutional discrimination against whites�It is only considered statistically rare when compared to institutional racism by whites in authority because of the disparity between whites in power and blacks in power�Also, it is much less effective because in most cases there is a white person somewhere above those blacks discriminators who will stop or correct the action before it can do much damage�So while I readily admit that blacks are not in a position to oppress or marginalize whites, that in no way rules out the fact that many blacks can and do practice institutional discrimination against whites�..
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Do you mean stuff like banks redlining certain areas for loans, etc?
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Do you mean stuff like banks redlining certain areas for loans, etc? TB 
Ive already posted a whole LIST of ecamples of the type of institutional racism I am referring to |
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It seems to me that there is a disagreement about how to properly interpret certain statistics pertaining to crime and punishment in the USA.
One person sees institutional racism reflected in the statistics. Another person sees no institutional racism in the same statistics. It appears to me that msharmony has done a good job presenting her evidence for continued institutional racism in the USA. In a column published in USA Today, political columnist Tim Carney writes the following: Black males grow up being eyed with suspicion more than white males do � whether because of subconscious racism, people profiling based on crime statistics, or overt racism, it happens. So, if you say to a black person, "stop acting as if your race matters," you're asking him to be color-blind in a society that isn't.
Probably more important: even where no White Man is Keeping Them Down at the moment, African Americans still suffer from the legacies of slavery and Jim Crow. Black children are more likely to be born into poverty, and into a fatherless home, which makes it harder for them to get out of poverty, and more likely they will fall into crime � and maybe leave their own kid in fatherless poverty. The average white person alive today may not bear any blame for this situation, but that's why I'm invoking empathy here � just because it's not your fault that a black kid started life with a disadvantage doesn't mean you should pretend he didn't start life at a disadvantage. I realize here many people will cite affirmative action and claim it's easier to make it as a black man. I think that's true in some microcosms, and only after clearing many hurdles. That is, if a black kid does well in school, gets good SATs, and keeps his life in order, he's more likely to get into Harvard, probably. But those initial hurdles are harder to clear for the average black kid who comes from, on average, a poorer home and went to, on average, a worse school. The upshot: there are a lot of things where a well-meaning white guy might mistakenly think race is irrelevant or racism played no role. Of course there is another side to that coin - which I address in another thread @ http://mingle2.com/topic/368354 Still, I agree with what Carney says in his above-quoted column. It is said that just because you are paranoid, that doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you. Likewise, just because plenty of false claims of racism have been made (usually against white people), that doesn't mean that every claim of racism is false. |
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agreed
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