many many of my muslim friends are Alevists... a shia form of Islam and very beautiful and also moderate.... what people forget, is that as in any religion, the devotees are also subject to personal introspection and mostly no one follows the doctrine of any religion to the letter of the law...

look up Alevism.... educate yourself about Islam... i won't tell the answers...

but it is not what the media wants you to see....

does it apply to catholics?

hey Miguel....
in some ways it is better than catholicism as far as religionsgo...lol


but i am an atheist so i speak of these religions as they are crutches for those that need more to rely on than themselves...

wanna donut???

my dear lady
i meant if that applies to catholicism in the sense that some people even though are catholics they are not as extremists
kisses for u

always

Miguel-

You would know better than I if it applies to Catholics, so you are most likely just doing your "rhetorical question" thing...

Nevertheless, I don't see Bl8tants answer so I will answer... of course it applies to Catholics... do all Catholics follow everything the church teaches? The most obvious example of the spectrum for followers of catholocism that I can think of is birth control. I have a catholic friend who has 8 children- obviously they are strict followers of the church's policy, I know other catholics who use birth control regularly because they feel the church is wrong or outdated on this issue.

Female priests, gay priests, vs. those churches that would never accept such things might be other good examples...

hmmm Fanta I apologize- it seems the wandering just gets worse and worse.

I don't really like this topic much as it makes me face the fact that I feel intolerance towards islam. I know that there are many muslims who are neither dangerous nor evil. Evil is an overused word lately anyway. I would be hard to persuade that there are not large numbers of dangerous muslims, intolerant of even the most basic of human rights. These people, many of them, are looking for more ways to be even more dangerous and to kill more innocent people.

I heard a comment on the radio yesterday, maybe not related. Someone was talking about pit bulls and made the following comment. "There are no bad dogs, only bad owners." So I'm asking the question, what does that mean? Are dogs better than people? Dogs cannot have their own personality and maybe be dangerous just from within themselves?

There are those who will defend the pit bulls as sweet lovable dogs till hell freezes over. Only last week a woman was mauled in her own bed by a pair of pit bulls who sneaked in her doggie door at night. The owner said "Those dogs are always sweet and would never hurt anyone. I just don't know how this could happen"

There are those who will defend muslims under any condition and tell you that they should have as much right to immigrate to the United States or Western Europe or Canada or Australia as any other group. The original quote as I started this thread shows that not everybody feels this way. What surprises me is that any more than a few extremely tolerant people feel that way. I suspect that the most extremely tolerant may be the ones with the biggest mouths. Unfortunately.

This country has bigger problems than this. We need to find ways to manage relations with Russia and China, and we should be doing more things to help conditions in Africa and even South America. We could make a lot of progress in these very important areas if we weren't always having to deal with a bunch of tyrants and greedy autocrats, parading around in the name of religion and promoting anarchy around the world to solidify their own prominence.

Philosopher-

That's right you did start this thread didn't you??

I think after a while I forgot that because I associate immigrant issues with Fanta and TLW. So sorry to you for wandering with your topic.. . but it seems like it still interests you despite your hesitancy to address your feelings about Muslims so maybe it was a good circle of thoughts...

It's hard not to feel a little pre-judgement (in this case fear) for the "other", especially when our media and government scream at us that their is much to fear. For me it is yet another time to realize that there are spectrums. There are Muslims who would seem like a brother to you in their way of thinking and customs, there are others who would, at first at least, seem totally foreign. But again the same could be said for Baptists. Snake handling and speaking in tongues scare me but that doesn't mean that they're not good people.

I always fear this demonization of a group of people. Making "them" all "evil" makes it so much easier to mistreat, torture, or kill them doesn't it?

You are right, its not fair to paint everyone with the same wide brush. And you are also right, the media is always screaming at us about there being so much to fear. But just because you are paranoid doesn't mean someone is not out to kill you.

You can't exclude all the public from your life, as a practical matter. Neither is it practical to invite everyone you meet home with you. Feeling sorry for them or wanting to give them a chance to do better with their life is no justification for inviting every homeless person home. Not all homeless people are insane or dangerous, but if you invite enough of them home the likelihood is that one will be a problem. People lock their doors for this same reason.

Muslims have hate in their blood, and don't forget that! I have one in my family, and I've talked with several. They may not be the extreme radical muslims but the message is clear around the board, they wouldn't mind if America was done in.

"There are no bad dogs, only bad owners."

I don't really agree with this quote. It goes to the classic biological question of "nature vs. nurture".

E.g. Are we born a certain way or does our environment determine what we will become?

There have been many studies; with varied results. Among the more interesting to me are the studies of twins who were seperated at birth and raised apart and yet they frequently tended to lead seemingly parallel lives, they make similar occupational choices, some married within days of each other to similar partners, had children at the same time, even bought the same kind of car. Yet they never met prior to the study. Although these stories show an element of importance to biological makeup/genetics there are only so many seperated twins to be studied so these are only anectdotal stories.

For me I believe that both factors play a part. One may be born with certain biological predispositions- likelyhoods or risk-factors for certain diseases. To me it seems logical that personality would be similar. Just as I was born with a tendency towards ulcers from my father so now I control and prevent it from being a problem by my actions (diet, meditation, etc.). So I believe it is nature and nurture that determine our charactor/conduct.

Going back to your dog example, I was a Veterinary Technician (doggy nurse) for several years while I was in college. I have seen literally hundred of puppies and spoken with many people (vets, breeders, other techs) who have even more experience. And this was the consensus on this issue:

Puppys are born with distinct personalities. Some are more outgoing and friendly at even a few days old, others are more fearful or agressive. Guiding eyes for the Blind, amoung others, have studied ways to determine if a puppy is likely to make a good guide dog. It's expensive to raise and train guide dogs, so they use a variety of "tests" for puppies to determine which are most trainable. Does this mean that the other puppies will make "bad" or "mean" dogs? IMO, absolutely not. Even the most aggressive of puppies can be trained, especially if time and care are taken early on to do so. It all depends on the amount of effort one puts into making them good dogs.

But there are dogs that take a LOT more effort. And the problem with pit bulls are that they were bred for generations to fight. So for MANY generations the most agressive puppy in one litter was bred to the most aggressive from another litter. That can be very difficult to overcome.

And the fear is not without reason. As we always told people who were choosing a pet for their child- please don't forget to take the potential for harm into consideration. If your chihuahua or shih tzu becomes fearful or agressive and bites a child the child may be scared but if your pit bull or rottweiler becomes bites that same child the child may lose and arm, lost their face or even die....

Does that translate into a greater need to fear Muslims? Not to me, I always hope people are actually capable of more than dogs- although their behavior doesn't always justify this..

Philosopher,


sigh.... so i hear ya, and 25years ago i began ...and slowly but diligently i have set up 75 clinics in S.America and all over Afrika... i have a safe house here in Amsterdam that shelters women and children and refugees in certain situations, and every winter i do a free soup kitchen at central station and at the Nieuwe Markt, in the red light district....i make 3 tours a year and do rounds plus my work in Chad and Niger these last 3 years, i was in Lebanon last august just in time to watch the last bridges blow and spent 9 weeks treating broken everything...

i was back in my motherland for the first time since the '75 war, which took all my family. but even that had it's place...

i work with people , and political , religious, or nationality have no bearing.....

.just like any of us...each of these people LOVE and fiercly protect their children and the security they have established to insure that safty for their families......


do any of you see a difference in this, from what you feel?
each person has a story , just as important as yours is to you, with all the dramas and poignancy, all the passions and laughter and profound meaning.... you are not meeting the bombs on your doorstep and dodging mortar and snipers to get across the city...to get food or water

it is easy to generalize until you have lived in a war...have seen arbitrary madness and a sickness that is so contagious and disgusting...when you have even become someone you never knew... and have to live thru it..have to be left to carry it... no....

it's not about muslims or jews, or israelis, or iranians or syrians or hezblooah, or fatah or hamas or bush or cheney or rumsfeld or osama or he pope....


it's just the human condition and we have really dressed it up...(someone needs some professional fashion advice )


so ...... i listen to everyone and every now and then i throw in my bl8ant remarks, because for me all of this in here is serious comic relief...lol

what i have to deal with..the walk i walk ....is a whole nuther cookie.



banter all you like...discuss the problems of the world...

and when you are able, walk the walk.

Sorry, I'm late, but I had issues to deal with.

Fanta wrote:

Sat 08/25/07 07:53 AM
Germany has imported Turks for years with no hope of them ever becoming legal residents! This was done just for the gain of cheap labor. When I was there on many occassions you would hear about instances of large groups of Germans hunting them down and beating them in the streets.
Europe is full of injustices like these, that are equal to or far surpass anything here.
That was my point, although they do not take promoninece in the news, illegal immigration is just as much a problem there as here. Only we hardly ever complain about legal immigration, I noticed several mentions of European countries wanting to deport legal immigrants!
I posted these was someone asked what were the laws in Europe pertaining to illegal immigration.
The Europeans are also the most condemning towards our illegal immigration policy proposals, as if theirs are better!



I've been there, and the only reason turks were hunted down was because they saw German women as free game, while every German man who only looked at a Turkish woman was stabbed in the back.
I do know that by experience.

i am a Turk
I am a Hindu
I am an atheist
I am a woman
I am a catholic
I am a jew
I am a Buddhist
I am a Muslim
I am a Morrocan
I am (ugh) american
I am Dutch
I am Lebanese and Welsh
I am a university graduate and i am
illiterate in Greek
I am a surgeon
I am a butcher
I am a freedom fighter
I am a child
I am a terrorist (same thing as child)


I am in every face i meet and yours


we are one humanity and we are wounded


just imagine if the universe deems us a lame horse???!!

I'm human, and it sucks.

oh andrea....sucking has it's benefits..lmao!!!

Oh Bl8nt....

Hey gorgeous

hey Miss!!


indeed whatever would you do with the chocolate???!!!!

Pass the chocolate

It's not on my diet plan though