You are right. It doesn't have to be sex. However, if there's been no kiss by the end of the second date, I'd start assuming he just wanted to be friends.

that's a very broad assumption.. addressing your comment about being "universal with all women".. I beg to differ as I for one do not loose interest in a man because after 14hrs together we haven't had sex.. personally I feel its not a race.. but a journey

definitely a lot of jerks.....at least online forums like this let women see how men really think. If I knew half this stuff when I was in my 20s.....

I didn't say sex had to happen (although, it likely will). I said she'll lose interest if he hasn't made his sexual interest in her known.

I've probably dated over 500 women in my life. When I look back at what went right and where I screwed up, this was the mistake I made most often. I didn't communicate my sexual interest to her soon enough. But, it cannot be done too soon either.

There was a time I thought women wanted to be treated like they were a great prize. As if her having sex with me was some kind of great favor from her. Now I realize this is objectification. Women don't want to be worshiped like goddesses and showered with gifts. A women wants to feel like she had to work to earn her man.

If a man shows his interest too soon, she'll see him as only interested in her body. But, after talking with her and getting to know about her and discovering who she is and he still doesn't show sexual interest, the door closes and he's SOL.

Here's how to begin a sexual relationship;

The man approaches the woman and starts a conversation. He doesn't express any interest in her at this point. He's just a friendly, confident, talkative man.

Next he jokes with her and teases her a little, but still doesn't show any sexual interest. He may even ignore her and talk to her friends. This makes her curious about him. In other words, she becomes interested (attracted). If a man shows his sexual interest before this, he's blown it.

Then he can start getting to know about her and who she is. What makes her tick? This is the part where she earns his interest. He needs to find out something unique about her, something that separates her from other women. Once he does, he can become more interested in her because she's earned it. Now, he can ask for her phone number.

Later he calls her and sets up a date. They go out, have fun, do stuff together and build a feeling of connection. A 30 minute phone conversation, a two hour date etc. Over time she begins to feel more comfortable and relaxed with him. This may take place over several dates.

The next step is seduction and I think we all know about how that goes.

If you do the math from the time he first said hello to the time the seduction starts it's about 14 cumulative hours. Although it may have taken three weeks or four weeks.

I have to agree with da Scoundrel here. I have often lost female friends by not sleeping with them; I have also had women come out and tell me that if I didn't make a move soon I would be in the friend zone. This is why I follow the mantra Bros before Hos.

Okay, so tell us how you're sexual relationships began. What steps took place in what order?

I'll admit that sometimes the woman may take the lead, but this isn't the usual route. Generally, women want a man to lead.

You're avoiding the question.

I have laid out how exactly how all my long term (longer than 6 months) relationships started. Every one of them and I can assure you, I don't usually stay single for long.

Well I will be honest and confess that my head is not really where it should lately, if it ever was, as I am a bit of an egghead and get caught up in my thoughts, etc. Sooooo, most of my relationships especially the last couple, the woman has come right out and said something. One woman said and I quote- what do I have to do, lift up my skirt and yell yoo hoo?

actually I am the total opposite. If a man makes a move on me too soon he goes in the friend zone, and I take lovers from my friends, and usually they stay my friend even if it does not work out. Unless they have behaved in a manner that showed even a tiny glint of violence or hostility toward me

in the latter scenario I usually just kinda write them off

Bravo! You sir are a master of seduction.

Too bad. I was hoping for something from someone with a different experience from my own. But, I guess this is how it happens for everybody. It's the human mating dance.

BTW I don't feel this is off topic. We are discussing how men and women become friendly, build a connection and start a loving, sexual relationship.

I agree that typically many relationships start that way.. however.. I may be an exception to the general rule (as I'm sure others may as well)..

as soon as a man approaches.. he is showing interest.. and through body language and speech patterns, facial expressions etc.. one can usually see where the 'dance' is headed.. this can be discovered either when face to face or over the phone(using listening skills).. there are those that require very little time (5 mins or under) to figure out and others that require a bit more (several days to a week).. but in truth I believe the seduction starts with the first hello

And sometimes it hits you over the head like a baseball bat that you never saw coming.

Best thing is to not worry how love will come to you.

Live, laugh, love.

First of all, I'm glad a woman has acknowledged that my description is a (mostly) accurate one.

But, I think you may be assuming too much. Just because a man says hello doesn't necessarily mean he's attracted. Maybe he's just a friendly, talkative fella. Yes, there are clues in voice and body language. But, if he's truly not attracted (yet) he won't be sending any of these singles. Some men (myself included) don't become attracted until a little later in the interaction. At first we're just fishing.

Suppose he approaches a mixed group and only talks to the men? Would you assume he's gay and trying to pick up one of them? Probably not. At least I wouldn't.

From my experience once you are a friend that is the same as the kiss of death as far as having any chance at a relationship.

So, Bah, humbug!

firstly.. lets take a few steps back.. and I quote



no assumption was made.. but that said.. if we address my answer to the original statement.. please note the first line.. the words you used were "man approaches the woman" that to me says he went straight up to her.. in that HE has shown interest.. has he not? it sounded like he was singling her out.. which further adds logic to my conclusion that he has shown an interest.. and lets be frank.. if he found nothing attractive about this person in the first glance.. he never would have approached her period.. which has to do with a lil thing called 'laws of attraction'

now if we were to take your 2nd scenario wherein he approaches a mixed group of people.. I would just include him in the general conversation as a person a) interested in the conversation and b) has an opinion to add.. unless he showed some indication of interest my way he would just be part of the 'gang'.. now if he actually spoke ONLY to the men? I would think he was sexist and probably find another more palatable conversation

ma bad wrote 'question' by mistake 'n fergot ma dude

beautiful AND classy,, you go girl!

Nope. I start conversations with strange women often and have no interest in them at all. Example: Do you have a light? What time is it?

Maybe he's just wanting to pass the time while waiting to meet a friend.

Also, addressing only the men in a group doesn't make one sexist. Maybe he's asking about something men generally know about that women don't like sports stats. Example; "My friend I disagree and need another opinion. Who was a better pitcher Nolan Ryan or Walter Johnson?"

Edit

I remember once approaching a mixed group and asking the guys "would you date a woman that didn't shave her armpits?" I asked because I did once date a woman like that, but only once. I ended the date shortly after learning this and never called her again. I was talking about it with a friend who thought I was crazy for not seeing her for such a "silly" reason. So, I wanted to hear what some other men thought.

The "rules" some of you have posted make me chuckle. I'm not likely to have sex on a first date (although I don't have any judgment about it and might if so inclined) but I'm sure as heck evaluating attraction, chemistry and potential. If it's not there I won't go on a second date because it's just not fair or honest, IMO. I had a few dates recently with fun and interesting men who I didn't want to kiss let alone sleep with...thanks, bye, good luck to us both.