Sir, don't get all bent out of shape cause I don't agree with what you posted... Human waves and suicide missions are nothing new in war. I just object to you using this here to demonize Iran.
The myths have expanded over time... But was this any worse than our invasion of the beaches of Dieppe? No Sir!

"Israel is the most anti-war country on the face of the earth."


Strange... I was sure it was Iceland

Edit*

No... Switzerland... I want to change this to Switzerland!

What a nonsensical response.



Please, let me expand on my original question. Given that an Arab coalition has already tried to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth, and add the rise of fundamentalist governments in the region, as a result of the Arab Spring, how long do you think Israel would survive if western support was withdrawn?



See my first reply.

Please, save the rhetoric for those who buy into the narrative. The issue is not Black & White, but anti-Semitic propaganda has morphed into an unrelenting criticism of the Israeli state, moreso than any other nation. While bellicose nations and governments surrounding Israel are held up to be angels-give me a break!

Twenty reasons with no legitimacy. I don;t want to burst your bubble, but the entire scenario is the flow of oil. The nation that keeps the flow of oil in that region will reign as the superpower of the world.

The Russians, Syrians, Iranians,Chinese, and all other parties involved know this. The nuclear program is the front to justify this.

No amount of diplomacy, arms talks, partnering, etc.. will stop this.

At risk of destabilzing the region, the US will do what ever it takes to maintain this flow. Does it suck for everyone in the US? Yes it does. If the Russians or the Chinese take control of the situation, guess what? It still sucks for the US!

Do I have any answers? No I do not. But I can tell you that not one of the three super powers cares one bit about diplomacy or an uprising in that region.

Have a nice day

Again, Not very long if they continue on this same path?


Decisions have been made... Deals broken... 60+ years worth!
all resulting in the same poverty and despair for the Palestinians while Israel enjoys umbrella protection, education and 50 billion a year to improve their death apparatus... Arabs need to smuggle ciment in to build FFS

All I'm saying is that Israel can handle herself now... How ridiculous for the USA/West to be dragged into WW3 because a nation could not negotiate a peaceful solution with it's neighbors and stick to it!

So... Again, Jews & Arabs have been fighting in this same region for the same reasons for CENTURIES now... The decision to draw borders there was doomed to fail from the start... and quite frankly I believe it was done on purpose... fail!

more riotous misrepresentations!



USA/West isn't getting dragged into squat.

We are rightfully responding to the calls of "Death to America"
and bus, tube and hotel bombings, attacks on people in Iraq
and Afghanistan with Iranian made weapons.



Arabs can get all humanitarian needs freely met - just no weapons
and materials used to attack others.

The Palestinians have every opportunity to better their standard of
living all they have to do is stop terrorism and use that energy in
productive labor to improve their society with education and
religious tolerance and freedom.

Arabs and Jews were at peace with each other for hundreds of years
during the Ottoman empire for example.Actually, the fighting and
hatred has escalated only in the last century or so with the rise
of radical Islam and intolerance in some parts of the Arab world.

All that is required for peace is for the Arabs/Palestinians to
stop trying to kill Israelis and accept a permanent Jewish state of
Israel as their neighbor.

I didnt want to debate the Palestinian/Israeli conflict but they are related to Iran so yea... Let's go!

What are the chances of this happening?


http://www.un.org/depts/dpa/qpal/docs/Istanbul2010/FORUM%20daphna%20golan%20formatted.pdf

Sharing Jerusalem in justice and peace-
A call for truth and reconciliation in Sheikh Jarah
Daphna Golan


These days, Jerusalem- the holy city for Jews, Christians and Muslims is a city of
fear and uncertainty- a city divided between Israelis, for whom the city is planned, and
Palestinians, whom the State of Israel views as foreigners in their own homes. After the
occupation of the Palestinian Territories by Israel in 1967, West Jerusalem tripled its size,
swallowing up East Jerusalem as well as 28 Palestinian villages around it. On the lands
confiscated from Palestinians some 200,000 Israelis live in settlements built for Jews
only, while not a single neighborhood has been built for Palestinians- even though they are
more than 300,000 people- more than a third of Jerusalemites. There is no master plan in
Palestinian East Jerusalem, and construction permits are very scarce. Yet there are tens of
demolitions of homes built without a permit every year. Palestinian Jerusalemites are
disconnected from most of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza who are not
allowed to enter Jerusalem, their religious, cultural, economic and political center.
During recent years the discrimination in the city becomes evident, where the
municipality invests four times more in a Jewish student than in an Arab students (557 NIS
versus 2,372 NIS), where thousands of Palestinian students even 8 and 9 years old do not
go to school as there is no room for them in schools. In Jerusalem even the rain water is not
distributed equally between Jews and Arabs, and more than half of the Palestinians in the
city are not connected to running water.
It is not enough, however, to name, shame and blame Israel for its policy in
Jerusalem. In order to bring change to Jerusalem to offer hope for peace and justice- we
need a vision of shared Jerusalem and much efforts on behalf of the international
community.
How do we imagine Jerusalem of peace? Our future vision of Jerusalem is connected
to the past, to years of occupation by empires, years of wars years in which millions of
people around the world dream Jerusalem.
Here in Turkey, it would be appropriate to think about the house of Um Nabil in
Sheikh Jarrah in which Jewish settlers now live to begin to hope for a different future. For
proofs of ownership of land and houses, official Ottoman deeds are debated in Israeli
courts – transferring a political debate about the future of Jerusalem into a legal battles
which Palestinians keep losing.
In the last months at the heart of Jerusalem, a walking distance from the UN office,
from the American consulate and from most of the European consulates, three Palestinian
families were evicted from their homes, and live in the street while Jewish settlers moved
in. Twenty four other families including Um Nabil's Al Kurd family received eviction
orders following court cases in which a Jewish organization claimed to own the houses
before the 1948 War .
3
Yet in Sheikh Jarrah, Israelis and Palestinians are protesting against the evictions
while seeds of partnership between Israelis and Palestinians are beginning to sprout.
Could you help Um Nabil who was evicted from her house in Haifa in 1948, to stop
living in fear of second eviction in Sheikh Jarrah? Maybe instead of more UN committees
and more UN reports you could help create truth committees that would allow Um Nabil to
tell her story of her first eviction from her house in Haifa in 1948, how she settled with
other 27 Palestinian families of refugees, in Sheikh Jarrah, and why she thinks that another
Jewish settlement at the heart of Palestinian East Jerusalem will create more tensions and
hate in the city.
Like most Palestinians, the people in Sheikh Jarrah who were evicted form their
houses, and those who receive eviction orders- are refugees who were displaced from their
houses and lands in 1948 when the state of Israel was established. Israeli law does not
recognize the right of Palestinians to sue in a similar manner for the return of their
properties which they lost during the 1948 War, in West Jerusalem in particular and in
Israel in general.
It is time to stop all demolitions of homes in Jerusalem, all evictions of Palestinians
from their homes - and build together a future of peace. Truth committees, like the ones
established in South Africa and other countries in transition, might be a model to allow all
to publicly hear and learn about the history of Jerusalem, the history of the conflict, and to
search for reconciliation. Jerusalem is a city that knew many military occupations. A city
in which Jews and Arabs, Chrisitans, Jews and Muslims always lived together. It is our
hope, all of us in Jerusalem that the policy of separation and discrimination will be over
and the city will be shared by all who live in it, in equality and peace.
Millions of Muslims Jews and Christians care for Jerusalem and its future. Let us
acknowledge Jerusalem’s history, let us allow the struggle in Sheikh Jarrah to be the last
struggle between Jews and Arabs in Jerusalem. We could all live together, we should all
share the resources, the beauty the holiness of Jerusalem- for Jerusalem could and should
be a city of peace. For generations Jews prayed – next year in Jerusalem. Let's pray and
hope for Next Year in a Jerusalem that is rebuilt with equality and peace.

True.



True. Also, there is a great deal of unrelenting criticism of the Israeli state which has no such roots.



False.



True for some people. There is propaganda and distortion on all sides.

None of the above changes the fact that there are pro-Israeli people who will not hesitate to play the racism card.

As a veteran, id hate to see an attempt at invading Iran. The campaign to sway public opinion towards the invasion of Iran actually started years ago when the US and Isreal overthrew the Iranian goverment under then leader Mohammad Mossadegh and placed the Shah. That resulted in the Iranian revolution of the late 70s. This overthrow of the puppet regime of the Shah the USA placed created a new dilema, we lost one of the greatest sources of sweet crude at the time. Libya now has the greatest deposit of sweet crude in the world. We now have full access due to the recent US and Nato campaigns in that country. We then decided to support an open enemy of Iran, Iraq gladly were recruited to serve as unknowing fodder against Iran in a 8 year war that killed many. The Iraqi war was not about oil at all. Americans were media blitzed to accept that premise because no matter our feelings of the war, we will gladly support it in that oil means alot to our own standard of living. But the real reason was to implement a strategy that would actually take several military incurssions in the region. The removing of Saddam provided two things. 1. Silence Saddam from crying to the World court in front of an International audiance, and take the entire country of Iraq to fully nuetralize the entire western border of Iran, who share Iraqs entire eastern border. Three borders that completely surround Iran remained. To arrest Irans north and eastern border, we began our Afghanistan campaign. The southern border of Iran is the strait of Hormuz, that southern region is shared with a US allie the Saudis, the US military is already encroaching in Iranian waters. So Iran as we speak are indeed surrounded. Isreal provides more then intelligence, the will provide several launching pads from the west, Saudis and American navy from the south, ground troops from the west, and elite forces from Afghanistan from the east. The US and NATO with Isreali help are already set for an invasion. The problem is not only the political fallout or international opinion, those who contribute will be rewarded with contracts to rebuild what we destroy. Like Iraq, all the coalition countries who contributed ground forces were greatly rewarded with great investment opportunities to rebuild Iraq. Most of the contracts awarded by the US and the world bank went to countries that provided man power to crush Iraq. Now the problem will be China and Russia, both have no interest in haveing Nato and the US strategicly capable of dictating dominance especially militarily in their back yard. Afterall, Afghanistan share borders with China and Russia. I predict a compromise, as China and Russia would probibly except some compensation, however I doubt that they would compromise their national security. In other words, invading Iran is a bad idea. If Isreal wants to invade, that is their option, but I would not want any of my boys to go fight for a foreign country. Isreal has their own army.

No one is going to invade Iran.

Their nuclear enrichment facilities and nuclear weapons related
activities are just going to be dismantled. Possibly by the Iranians
themselves, but if not, Iran's nuclear development programs will be
dismantled by force.

There is an international consensus that radical Islamic terrorist
sponsoring theocracies like Iran must never obtain nuclear warfare
capability.

Hopefully, Iran will bow to international pressure, honor their NPT
commitments and dismantle their nuclear weapons related programs
verifiably on their own terms soon.

I think Iran will stonewall till they have the bomb.

That certainly is the way it has been going. It is to be
expected that the rest of the civilized world will find a way
to avert such a calamity.

They haven't found a way to stop them yet. Iran has oil and oil means economic power. China will buy their oil even if no one else will. And China could give a damn if Iran blows Israel off the face of the planet. It would just be one more western enemy they don't have to deal with and not a big enough market to be concerned about losing.

If anything, China putting muscle behind Iran makes it more difficult to find a way to stop the nukes.

I don't see any consensus of UN security council members bombing Iran.

They would be fools to comply by others demands. Would we ? And we have a history of useing weapons of mass destruction, not only the droping of the atom bombs on Japan, twice, but more recent in our indiscrimanate use of "agent orange" in vietnam, but more recently in the no fly zone in Iraq . So true, their more likely then not be a major war, although thats still purely wishfull thinking for now. Iran has every right to do as they wish in their country. No one has a right to determine what another country does. Id be more concerned with N. Korea, but messing with them is not wise either. Covert ops are more likely then not already attempting to undermind Irans infrustruter in hopes of depleting funds needed to continue their endeavers. They would be fools to allow any one to dictate what they will do or not do. If a war does start, our being spread so thin will not be good. Besides, nuclear ambition is but the ruse to invade, good luck, as this will be a war that no one wins, Iran has had years to prepare for invasion. It is foolish to invade Iran, Iran is not going to dismantle anything. Doing so would clearly undermine their own National Security. Only fools would bow to the international community which in reality is the USA, the EU, and the NATO nations. Who then influence the influence the countries that depend on aide to go along with them if you want aide to continue. So the so called "civilized world are the wons preparing for war anyway, dispite the consiquences because of the profits to be made. Whats holding us back from invading Iran? China and Russia. Not the so called civilized word. Thats some other imaginary place. The reality is war is profit, and we WANT THE MIDDLE EADT. Period.

Well said, sir! (your previous post as well, btw)

What other nation is scrutinised daily on such a level as Israel? What other group of people is continuously blamed for the ills of the world? The fact that this occurs on such a scale is indicative of a level of prejudice or ignorance.

Either you have fallen for the distortion when you label Israel a 'warmongering' state, or you are unfamiliar with the history of the region. Your usage alone is quite illuminating regarding your bias.

True, some may play the racism card when it isn't true, but that is difficult to discern, as it is often true. I have posted papers on the link between anti-Israeli sentiment and anti-Semitism in the past, and there is an undeniable trend owing to racism, or the ignorant belief in material that originates from racist sources.

http://mingle2.com/topic/show/329883

Your post count would suggest that you're familiar with the fora here. Then you would also be aware of the high levels of overt anti-Semitism within many threads. Slowhand summed it up eloquently:


Antisemitism is another issue although it is clear from many of
the arguments which are aimed at Israel because it is a Jewish
state and the global Jewish conspiracy Nazi propaganda which is
repeated here so often that some of it is clearly antisemitic in
motivation.

The same path? The nation would cease to exist very quickly if left beyond the pale no matter what course of action was taken. Do you seriously believe that it would be all 'hugs and humpies' if Israel gave up its defensive position? That is why I found your first response a little...out there.

The WW3 scenario is just idle speculation and has about as much veracity as Nazis on the Moon. Furthermore, your history of the ME is a little garbled. It is the Arabs that have rejected and broken the peace accords from the outset.

The 'cement' smuggling story was just disinformation and I remember when it broke. It was soon shown to be hyperbolic. As for the decision to draw borders there being doomed to failure, well it often happens when an empire like the Ottoman hegemony falls apart, and the region could easily be just as tumultuous without the formation of Israel. Hatred for the nation of Israel gives the many Arab groups a form of unity.

I agree, the recent hysteria is media generated and will calm down. Any 'invasion' of Iran is a ridiculous hypothesis at this point in time and Iran seems to have learnt its current strategy from North Korea. That is, posture a little in order to gain concessions regarding the UN sanctions. Israel is understandably nervous at the moment, and I'm sure if Iran tests a nuclear device, she will respond with air strikes on the Iranian facilities. Having said that, I don't believe hostilities would escalate beyond that scenario.