Yes, that is love.


..that's one-sided love.


..true love isn't this. Again, one-sided.



So, if I said I was going to kill your child..
You'd just shrug it off and say, 'Love does not exist.'

..it is needed, otherwise, a life lived is empty, shallow, and wanting something to fill the void that they cannot define.

Love is but the fuel to a massive burning fire.
Hatred, Emptiness, Pain, Sorrow, Sadness, Suffering..
..these are but flames in that fire.



I never said that; however, if such happens..
Change took place; that change replaced the former love.
Therefore, it was not true love.
However, on the same stone, it is possible.
Nowadays, many people 'settle' and don't not pursue love.
If it such was not love to begin with, than this outcome could have been easily foreseen.

A poem like hers..
A quote like yours..

Written in the absence.

They defined love by the loss of it.
They both wrote such differently, during..
..that was love.

To write about the pain in its absence..
..you felt it.

So to say, 'It does not exist'..
It's hypocritical.

I am not talking about the love of a child; I was talking romantic love. I love my family and friends; I just don't believe in romantic love.

Hardly.

People are frequently and seriously impacted by things that have no tangible, measurable existence.

Otherwise, there would be no such thing as religion....

The underlying issue isn't whether or not it affects us. The underlying issue is whether or not we can cope with the reality that we've allowed ourselves to be twisted and mangled by something that, in the end, can never be demonstrably proven either way.

I simply chose not to play that game anymore. It's lose-lose -- there's no incentive to participate further.

Your mileage may vary.

..but in the absence of religion, there'd be nothing but chaos.
Right and wrong; they'd have no place here.
Law and Order, wouldn't even be a TV series, let alone a way of society.



..but, my friend, it has been proven.
Throughout history..
..in my own life. In the lives of others..

In a world that focuses so heavily on negative,
..it's not wonder it has become so hard to see it, let alone feel it.



..choosing to play or sit this one out..
Only proves that it truly does exist.
In one way, shape, or form. It's exists.
..because you've felt it.
..and you've been burnt by it.

Love may not be a common thing that everyone finds.
But last I checked, either is wealth..
..and that's a physical thing.

..in the absence of love..
Life itself would be utterly pointless.
..otherwise, why are you here?
Why haven't you all jumped off a bridge?

Something keeps you coming back for more.


Everyone loves something..
A something that holds a major value in our lives.

..without it..
We are nothing but bone and ash...

I can't speak for Lex but I suspect he means it in a way that I do. I am not playing that game either. Yes, I do love but not in a romantic way. I love my family and friends and would die for them. I know that when the dust settles; they will always be there for me. When I am hurt emotionally or physically; they will be there for me. A romantic love just won't. I can't explain it but I feel that romance can only go so far and then the person just quits on you. I know my family and friends won't.

So, without religion, there would be no government and no laws? I have no idea where you could be getting that from. I've seen plenty of "Law and Order" type shows, and other than the oath that the witness takes before testifying, there isn't a whole heck of a lot of religious talk going on there.

"Right" and "wrong" are mere expedient designations; i.e., what is "good" for a certain group and what is "bad" for said group. They are flexible terms and have no immutable definitions.



But this, of course, is necessarily an individual experience, with individualistic results -- and consequences. There is no "blanket answer" here. I can only speak for myself and my own life.

And I choose not to see giving up as a "negative" at all -- would it be a negative to give up smoking, drinking, drugs, jumping off the roof onto a bed of nails, etc.? There are things we give up because we can no longer justify the NEGATIVES they bring to our lives. How is giving up on a negative, a negative? Contradiction in terms, at best....



Belief is not reality.

I have felt it. It was not good. I choose to eliminate it from my life. But what was I really burnt by? My belief. That's all. Nothing more. My belief that there was something out there.

Ergo -- no one to blame but myself. And my naivete.



Wealth is measurable, to some extent.



It is a mistake to try to impose your own standards of "what's life for?" on other people.

I am here to create things, because I am driven to do that. I do not require anyone else for that -- I can do it just fine on my own.

If you're telling me that creating things has no value because it is done in the absence of a caring, monogamous framework, I would say your definitions are far far too narrow.

Please allow me the courtesy of deciding for myself what my reasons for being here are, and whether or not those reasons are valid. I certainly will not be trying to impose my standards on you, or anyone else.



I'm not done creating yet.



True enough, there are those things that hold major value in my life.

None of them are human, though.

My choice.

So very nice -- and all your posts since too.

Yes, there are some who have had bad experiences, who hasn't?? -- but your points remain true

And the grapes are sour.

Nah, just came to a logical conclusion. Lex gets it.

Faith - is built on love.
Religion is built on faith.

The very concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' would be nullified in the absence of love; because love is a major part of 'caring'. If no one truly cared, the human race itself wouldn't have prospered as well as it has.

I'm not defining either word; defining the concept in which they are both built on.

Whether this love is in a possession, a child, or a stranger; love is there, has been there, and has played a major impact in the raising of flags and the falling of kingdoms.



I see your point here, but 'giving up' on something doesn't give anyone then the right to say, 'it does not exist'.

..I believe that was what I was more veering towards.



This may be true; but like faith.
If one believes strongly enough..
..it becomes your reality.

..and it is that belief, that began the cycle.
One man says, 'Love does not exist'.
Now the woman he was destined for, will never find it.
She now settles for the closest thing she can find to it.
Now there is another man and a woman who will never find love.
..because two people 'settled' for something less.

I understand what you are saying..
..and, you are right, it is not place to say..
"your way of thinking is wrong".

..I'm just tired of hearing, 'love is an illusion'.



..and so is 'love' in that aspect.




You have a passion.
Passion is love.
Therefore, you have love.
I am not saying your reasons are not valid.
I am saying your reasons are an offspring or relation to love..
..loving something.

..and you proved it.
I'm not trying to offend or upset you.



..Awesome. :)



..my neighbor loved her dog.
..my friend loves his son.
..my grandparents loved each other.

If anything.

It is almost safe for me to say:

Love is purpose.

..because that is what it gives us.

..love is love..

Whether found in something non-physical, a child, or a stranger.

To say, 'love does not exist'.
..then tell me of things you 'love'.

Proves my point.

You two gave up in love of a stranger, that's fine.
It is your choice, and quite frankly, I don't blame either of you.

..but it does exist, and you know it.
..because once you found yourself in the absence of it..
..that word had finally gained a meaning.

..tis all I'm saying.

..thank you.

I agree. I guess I should be more specific. Of course love exists, I just think romantic love is an illusion. As I stated love for family and friends certainly does. I just thought your post was strictly about romantic love. Forgive me for my error in misunderstanding.

Nah, just speaking about love in general.
That's what I meant by..

"..you won't know love..
..until someone walks into your life..
..and gives that word a meaning."

Romantic love..
..now that, I don't know if I could truly argue against.
..because that type is truly impossible to define.
As each holds their own perspective of it.

Well, now that makes sense.

My romance with my late wife defies your logical conclusion.

Something can exist without you personally experiencing it.

Okay, I will take your word for it. I just don't believe in it for myself.

You've described a chain of irrationality.



That's the problem -- you're building a case on the pre-existing concept that the human race is inherently worth something. My point is that I don't know if that's the case or not. Being human, I have a somewhat vested interest in the answer, therefore I tend to lean in the direction that there is something "good" underneath it all. But my more rational side wants to be more objective about it.

"Right" and "wrong" are just terms used to create value judgments for selected people/things/concepts in selected circumstances. Again, if you go in thinking that it's "right" to do whatever is best for the most people in a given situation, you've nullified objectivity and given into the "vested interest" proposition. I'm not saying that's "bad" or "wrong" (this is entirely a matter of one's own perspective), I'm just saying it creates an intrinsic bias.



Then let me rephrase that. Giving up means giving up on something that I have found pointless and useless and, more often than not, painful. Relationships exist, yes. I've been there. I know how it works. It isn't worth it. I'm not saying relationships don't exist -- I'm saying "love" -- in the sense of two people, united together as a team, truly caring and supportive of each other, through good and bad -- THAT doesn't exist.

Maybe it does and I just have never seen it. I've never seen a Yeti or a leprechaun or a Martian. I'm not looking for them, either, and maybe they DO exist -- but, in the end, whether they do or not is irrelevant to me now.



No. If I believe I am on the moon, I will not be on the moon, no matter how much I believe it. J. Richard Gott wrote, in his book "Time Travel in Einstein's Universe": "I might wish right now to instantly become a tomato larger than the entire universe, but no matter how hard I try, I cannot do it."

I know it's become SOP for people to pass on the touchy-feely-warm-and-fuzzy-eco-friendly-new-age-folderol as if it contained some sort of cosmic knowledge, but it doesn't. It's just drivel designed to placate the masses.



Destined by who? Or by what? I have a problem with this -- as I've seen nothing to indicate "destiny" has any more validity than "love." The more you pile this stuff up, the more obvious the impending collapse.

No fate. No destiny. No karma. No steering. No meaning to life, other than that which we assign to it ourselves.



Delusion. (My opinion.)



It's not the same. There's no universally-accepted unit of measurement. We know what a dollar is, we know what a Euro is. Love has no statistics.



I'm not offended at all; it's rare that anyone posts something that allows me to express this sort of thing. For that, I'm greatly appreciative.

But I would submit that you're watering down the "love" concept here -- I'm talking about "romantic love," per se, not "I love my parrot."



OK, it can. But -- to use your examples -- I don't have a dog or a son or grandparents (or any family or friends at all, anymore, to be honest) -- so those sorts of loves are not open to me.

And I can say "I love writing" and be perfectly comfortable with that -- but the feeling it generates is nothing at all like I have ever experienced or imagined "romantic love" to be -- I find it annoying, actually, that I end up using the same word ("love") in both instances, because it simply isn't expressing what I mean in an effective way.....

But that's a semantics issue. What I'm really getting at is that there are those of us who simply have chosen to withdraw from the ostensible "playing field" -- not out of spite, not out of malice, but out of exhaustion and the desire not to be immolated anymore beyond what we've already been through. I don't see why anyone should consider that a bad thing....