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Topic: Vaccines are "transhumanism" that subverts evolution?
Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Fri 01/27/12 09:21 AM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 01/27/12 09:23 AM
Vaccines are "transhumanism" that subverts evolution? Category: Antivaccination lunacy • Medicine • Pseudoscience • Skepticism/critical thinking In the more than a decade since I first discovered, to my shock, that there are actual people out there who not only don't believe that vaccines are safe despite overwhelming evidence that they are but in fact believe that they don't work and are dangerous, I thought I had seen every antivaccine argument out there. After all, I just wrote about the tactics and the tropes of the antivaccine movement in which I reviewed, well, the tactics and tropes of the antivaccine movement. One of the favorite (and therefore most commonly used) tropes of the anti-vaccine movement is that vaccines are somehow "unnatural." There are many variants of this particular trope, for example the claim that "natural" infection is better than vaccination. This delusion sometimes reaches the point where some antivaccine parents will do something as stupid as to try to send lollipops licked by their children with chickenpox through the mail to other parents, the aim being to allow those parents to expose their children the chickenpox in order to give their children the "benefit" of "natural immunity." Yes, I thought I had seen every variation of the "unnatural" trope so beloved by antivaccinationists that, I must admit, the following took me rather by surprise. It's on a website whose name GreenMedInfo.com tells you just about all you need to know about it. My brief perusal of the site reveals that it's chock full of "natural" medicine quackery. Consistent with this, it appears to be rabidly antivaccine, as evidenced by a little dittie by someone named Sayer, who appears to be the person responsible for this website, entitled The Vaccination Agenda: An Implicit Transhumanism/Dehumanism. it's a crank trifecta, combining antivaccine tropes, conspiracy mongering, and the natural fallacy in heaping helpings, all topped off with fear mongering implying that vaccines are somehow responsible for making us less "human." At this late date, having been in the trenches for a while, even I don't recall having seen a screed so full of crazy. It's perfect for a Friday, when, even though I rarely do "Your Friday Dose of Woo" anymore, this might have been a good candidate for it. You'll see what I mean right away: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ WOW, everytime I think I have seen it all! This was specifically interesting to me becuase of the natural fallacy, and how we so often mistake natural for safe, or good and even sometimes do not even try to understand what it means for something to be natural.

Ladylid2012 Joined Sun 07/05/09 Posts: 42269	Fri 01/27/12 09:25 AM
I didn't vaccinate my boys...

heavenlyboy34 Joined Fri 07/04/08 Posts: 17348	Fri 01/27/12 09:48 AM
Vaccines are "transhumanism" that subverts evolution? Category: Antivaccination lunacy • Medicine • Pseudoscience • Skepticism/critical thinking In the more than a decade since I first discovered, to my shock, that there are actual people out there who not only don't believe that vaccines are safe despite overwhelming evidence that they are but in fact believe that they don't work and are dangerous, I thought I had seen every antivaccine argument out there. After all, I just wrote about the tactics and the tropes of the antivaccine movement in which I reviewed, well, the tactics and tropes of the antivaccine movement. One of the favorite (and therefore most commonly used) tropes of the anti-vaccine movement is that vaccines are somehow "unnatural." There are many variants of this particular trope, for example the claim that "natural" infection is better than vaccination. This delusion sometimes reaches the point where some antivaccine parents will do something as stupid as to try to send lollipops licked by their children with chickenpox through the mail to other parents, the aim being to allow those parents to expose their children the chickenpox in order to give their children the "benefit" of "natural immunity." Yes, I thought I had seen every variation of the "unnatural" trope so beloved by antivaccinationists that, I must admit, the following took me rather by surprise. It's on a website whose name GreenMedInfo.com tells you just about all you need to know about it. My brief perusal of the site reveals that it's chock full of "natural" medicine quackery. Consistent with this, it appears to be rabidly antivaccine, as evidenced by a little dittie by someone named Sayer, who appears to be the person responsible for this website, entitled The Vaccination Agenda: An Implicit Transhumanism/Dehumanism. it's a crank trifecta, combining antivaccine tropes, conspiracy mongering, and the natural fallacy in heaping helpings, all topped off with fear mongering implying that vaccines are somehow responsible for making us less "human." At this late date, having been in the trenches for a while, even I don't recall having seen a screed so full of crazy. It's perfect for a Friday, when, even though I rarely do "Your Friday Dose of Woo" anymore, this might have been a good candidate for it. You'll see what I mean right away: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ WOW, everytime I think I have seen it all! This was specifically interesting to me becuase of the natural fallacy, and how we so often mistake natural for safe, or good and even sometimes do not even try to understand what it means for something to be natural. It's true that there are many better arguments against vaccination. Keep in mind though, even when arguments against vaccination are fallacious, it does not follow that they are wrong. To make that claim is to commit the fallacy fallacy (X is fallacious, therefore it is incorrect). There is plenty of literature and anecdotal evidence on both side of this debate. Regardless of who is more correct, the decision for vaccination should be left up to those affected by it.

whobedat Joined Sat 01/07/12 Posts: 141	Fri 01/27/12 10:01 AM
detailed and elaborate explanation.are u a medical expert?

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Fri 01/27/12 10:03 AM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 01/27/12 10:04 AM
detailed and elaborate explanation.are u a medical expert? Not on this subject, the person I quoted is a Cancer surgeon and Molecular Biologist researcher. Heavely: If you follow the link provided you will find he has inserted many links that go into details in much greater depth than the small quote I used.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sat 01/28/12 07:01 PM
I think vaccines are okay, but they would be a great way to spread a deadly disease if a sinister government wanted to decrease the population. Yes, a very paranoid idea. But the people in the cult of Jim Jones practiced drinking their poison as a ritual and it was harmless until one day, it really was poison. I don't think vaccines are necessary if you are in really good heath and if you have a good immune system. But most people are not in great health and they mess up their immune systems with cigarettes and alcohol and drug abuse, poor diet etc.

Bravalady Joined Sun 01/01/12 Posts: 1034	Sun 01/29/12 12:00 AM
"the decision for vaccination should be left up to those affected by it." And that would be the general public. So we agree!

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Sun 01/29/12 06:06 AM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Sun 01/29/12 06:06 AM
"the decision for vaccination should be left up to those affected by it." And that would be the general public. So we agree! Well said, without herd immunity in place people with compromised immunity are at greater risk from people who choose not to vaccinate.

s1owhand Joined Fri 05/18/07 Posts: 29437	Sun 01/29/12 07:01 AM Edited by s1owhand on Sun 01/29/12 07:06 AM
Vaccines are one of the best public health tools ever. They have saved millions and millions of lives. Everyone should get appropriate vaccines. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/CC00014 http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01013 and http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01188 Those who ignore the health benefits of vaccines and do not get them will be on the elimination side of evolutionary selection. Oh well - that's biological competition for you.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 01/29/12 07:41 AM
If the herd would focus on and practice habits for good health rather than fighting disease there would be no need for vaccines.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 01/29/12 07:44 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 01/29/12 07:45 AM
For example, the large corporations control most of the food supply and if they would grass feed cattle two months before they slaughter them there would be no danger of e coli in the meat. But still they store cattle in pens full of manure and stuff them with corn.

s1owhand Joined Fri 05/18/07 Posts: 29437	Sun 01/29/12 07:47 AM
Vaccines are one of the best public health tools ever. They have saved millions and millions of lives. Everyone should get appropriate vaccines. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/CC00014 http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01013 and http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01188 Those who ignore the health benefits of vaccines and do not get them will be on the elimination side of evolutionary selection. Oh well - that's biological competition for you. If the herd would focus on and practice habits for good health rather than fighting disease there would be no need for vaccines.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 01/29/12 08:02 AM
Vaccines are one of the best public health tools ever. They have saved millions and millions of lives. Everyone should get appropriate vaccines. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/CC00014 http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01013 and http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01188 Those who ignore the health benefits of vaccines and do not get them will be on the elimination side of evolutionary selection. Oh well - that's biological competition for you. If the herd would focus on and practice habits for good health rather than fighting disease there would be no need for vaccines. Why would you laugh at that? Its the truth. Vaccines don't do anything but stimulate the body's immune system. People with good health have good immune systems.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 01/29/12 08:03 AM
I don't get the flu vaccine ever, and I haven't gotten the flu in at least over ten years.

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 01/29/12 08:15 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 01/29/12 08:17 AM
Disease is actually big business. It employs millions of people. Doctors, nurses, aids, druggists, drug companies, etc. A world or nation with good health would change the face of business in the entire world. If governments were sincerely interested in people having good health they would not be inventing germ warfare. They would have more organic food. They would promote heath and stop pushing junk food, processed oils, and sugar so much. But drugs and illness is big business. Health would be a disaster to the entire world economy. And you want me to trust governments pushing us to get vaccines?? I don't think I do. They would have to show me that they really care about health before I can trust them. That is what I am waiting to see. Money motivates everything. The only reason Wal Mart started a line of organic food is because of the public's demand for it. It's all about supply and demand.

s1owhand Joined Fri 05/18/07 Posts: 29437	Sun 01/29/12 08:21 AM
Vaccines are one of the best public health tools ever. They have saved millions and millions of lives. Everyone should get appropriate vaccines. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/CC00014 http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01013 and http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01188 Those who ignore the health benefits of vaccines and do not get them will be on the elimination side of evolutionary selection. Oh well - that's biological competition for you. If the herd would focus on and practice habits for good health rather than fighting disease there would be no need for vaccines. Why would you laugh at that? Its the truth. Vaccines don't do anything but stimulate the body's immune system. People with good health have good immune systems. The health benefits of vaccines are SO WELL ESTABLISHED - there is absolutely no controversy among health care providers. Immunization is at the top of the list of the most high impact high benefit cost effective health care. It is ludicrous to suggest that vaccines are anything less than astoundingly beneficial for all people!!

Conrad_73 Joined Sat 09/29/07 Posts: 22488	Sun 01/29/12 08:29 AM Edited by Conrad_73 on Sun 01/29/12 08:32 AM
Disease is actually big business. It employs millions of people. Doctors, nurses, aids, druggists, drug companies, etc. A world or nation with good health would change the face of business in the entire world. If governments were sincerely interested in people having good health they would not be inventing germ warfare. They would have more organic food. They would promote heath and stop pushing junk food, processed oils, and sugar so much. But drugs and illness is big business. Health would be a disaster to the entire world economy. And you want me to trust governments pushing us to get vaccines?? I don't think I do. They would have to show me that they really care about health before I can trust them. That is what I am waiting to see. Money motivates everything. The only reason Wal Mart started a line of organic food is because of the public's demand for it. It's all about supply and demand. Yep,Governments are interested in killing off their Tax-Base,so they eradicate us with Vaccines!

s1owhand Joined Fri 05/18/07 Posts: 29437	Sun 01/29/12 08:36 AM
"The doctors are IN on it!"

Jeanniebean Joined Wed 01/30/08 Posts: 40028	Sun 01/29/12 09:38 AM Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 01/29/12 09:41 AM
Vaccines are one of the best public health tools ever. They have saved millions and millions of lives. Everyone should get appropriate vaccines. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/CC00014 http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01013 and http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/MY01188 Those who ignore the health benefits of vaccines and do not get them will be on the elimination side of evolutionary selection. Oh well - that's biological competition for you. If the herd would focus on and practice habits for good health rather than fighting disease there would be no need for vaccines. Why would you laugh at that? Its the truth. Vaccines don't do anything but stimulate the body's immune system. People with good health have good immune systems. The health benefits of vaccines are SO WELL ESTABLISHED - there is absolutely no controversy among health care providers. Immunization is at the top of the list of the most high impact high benefit cost effective health care. It is ludicrous to suggest that vaccines are anything less than astoundingly beneficial for all people!! THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING. I said that if the herd would focus on and practice habits for over all good health rather than "fighting disease" there would be no need for vaccines. People IN GOOD HEALTH have good immune systems. I'm not saying that vaccines don't help people with poor immune systems. They probably do. But when people continue to eat wrong, smoke, do drugs, etc. and they take loads of antibiotics and steroids and when antibiotics are put in our cattle those things destroy our immune systems. Steroids and antibiotics destroy and damage the immune system, and yet people still continue to prescribe and ingest these things. And they consume processed foods, trans fats, too much sugar etc. They make themselves sick and then they go to the doctor or depend on the government to give them the magic pill to save them. They focus on disease. Drug companies have a name for every symptom that they can see and they call it a disease or "syndrome" so they can invent a drug to sell to fix it. Drugs don't cure disease, they only mask the symptom. Vaccines don't prevent disease, they only stimulate the immune system. If you have no immune system, a vaccine is useless!! So the best thing to do is focus on good health and getting a strong immune system. This is freaking common sense. People are too lazy to do this. They think a vaccine will protect them from all the big bad germs or viruses out there. They won't. If you don't have a good immune system, vaccines are useless.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Sun 01/29/12 10:59 AM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Sun 01/29/12 11:11 AM
If the herd would focus on and practice habits for good health rather than fighting disease there would be no need for vaccines. Small pox doesn't care about your life style habits. Black plague killed people, who ate right; healthy and unhealthy alike. Polio doesn't care about your lifestyle and taking a multivitamin wont protect you. You really have to think of the immune system differently, you clearly do not understand it. The immune system isn't some shield that is based off of some fundamental Constitution, or general level of health. Disease that can be immunized against are kind of like foreign languages. If your immune system has not learned the language, then it will not understand the threat. Immunization is like training your immune system to detect and deal with a given foreign disease. Like many things, your immune system learns to fight something, and can forget. Immune systems are responsive to their environment, they favor building defense against organisms that it tends to find in its environment. Vaccines are a way to keep your immune system trained up for battle readiness but only fighting a weakened form so it is sure to win. I said that if the herd would focus on and practice habits for over all good health rather than "fighting disease" there would be no need for vaccines. There will always be a need for vaccines. There is no safer way to train an immune system. strong immune system . . . are made by engaging with the complex viral organisms they will meet in the environment, not by eating right and working out, those things ARE foundational to provide your immune system with resources, but it is only provided with knowledge by engaging with the enemy. Millions of people with immune systems with vast resources and no knowledge have failed to protect against death. You can look back into history and see this clearly. We even believe that the conquistadors brought disease with them that the natives of South American had never seen before, I am sure many died with amazingly strong immune systems that were never trained to defend against small pox.