You both have so little ability to grasp the science that when ever you question something you do not know you jump to a conclusion which does not make sense in light of the science.

Tuskegee is an example of people being unethical. That is a discussion for ethics, not the efficacy of vaccines.
The same with the Indians who probably were infected with small pox.

As much as you guys want to believe the government is some specific entity more often than not it is not, it is a collection of people some with morals, some without, and trying to say the govt did this or the govnt did that really just glosses over the fact that a tiny fraction of the government had any clue those examples where taking place until well after it occurred and the brave heroes set an example of those folks.

JB, your saying science has failed is an illustration of your vast ignorance. You do not have a single clue the vast amount of knowledge gained about the various cancers that exist from then to now.

The two of you represent the scientifically illiterate of our country, all such conclusions you reach on the topic are flawed becuase of that.

Can you name any? Every doctors I have EVER spoke to has endorsed vaccines in the same way I have, wholeheartedly. In medicine there are always exceptions, but as a rule vaccines are one of the safest and most powerful medical protections EVER discovered.

Gary Null,definitely a total Medical ZERO!

That guy is in a class of his own.

Not a good class.

I'm sure they have vasts amounts of knowledge about various cancers that exist. They probably created a lot of them. Is their vast knowledge doing them any good? Are they decreasing the amount of people who get cancer? Are they curing it?

People are still dying of cancer at an alarming rate. They are still bombarding people with radiation until their hair falls out. Where is the cure? They have been searching for a "cure" for the last 50 years. I'm not impressed.

I think your worshiping (medical)science as you do is an illustration of your vast ignorance.

There is NO PROFIT IN HEALTH.

It is clear to me that there are people (whoever) who do not want cures. Illness, disease and war are much too profitable. That's the bottom line.

This. You need to get a clue Bush, you have no idea of what is really happening. Argue all you want, but you're still going to be flat wrong, and all you have to do is look around and open your eyes to see it.

This thread reminds me of when we used to be forced to have vaccines at secondary school. As for the aids virus, that can lie dormant in you.

I did not quote any statistics. Statistics are numbers. I used a generalization which I believe can be backed up scientifically. I don't have the interest to reinvent that particular wheel. Although I certainly can't "know how many people would have died," it would be possible to estimate based on the rates of death for a disease before the vaccine was introduced.

I would be curious to know things like the name of the documentary you saw.

Now, rather than talking about immunizations, you're moving on to "all prescription drugs and drug reactions." This isn't the same thing. It confuses me and weakens your argument. And yes, vaccines are drugs, but they aren't the only drugs. For instance, I would be dead today if it weren't for adrenaline, as I was deathly allergic to bee stings and got stung in the face when I was a child.

I am also in the very first cohort of children to receive the Salk vaccine and be protected from polio. An older girl at my school had gotten the disease and could only walk with crutches. She was a beautiful girl but was crippled for life. My generation was spared that. Then, there's TB, which is making a comeback among the unimmunized.

The idea that the body's natural healing power doesn't need and shouldn't have any help is a beautiful fallacy. It just isn't supported by the facts. Remember the saying about what life was like in earlier times? "Nasty, brutish, and short."

I believe you are right that the Indians were intentionally infected with smallpox by the British (if not also the colonists) by giving them infected blankets. But that has nothing to do with immunization, as BBC pointed out.

Insulting each other isn't going to help. We need light, not heat. I have worked for a medical transcription company for nearly 15 years and have read a lot of office notes by oncologists. Chemotherapy DOES cure cancer. It does have significant side effects, which is why they're still looking for better treatments. One thing to keep in mind is that there is no single "cancer." Every type of cancer is different. It is widely agreed that huge strides have been made in curing--yes curing--breast cancer. Prostate cancer is quite treatable as well. But there is so much we still don't know. We don't even really know what causes cancer, and why some kinds are so aggressive and others aren't. When I had breast cancer, I never had to have chemotherapy because it was caught early. I was treated solely with mastectomy and tamoxifen, and I was CURED.

You seem to be extremely suspicious of everybody, and I'm not sure why. But I do think that focusing on one aspect, one disease, one issue, would be a great help in coming to some common understanding. Except that I'm not sure that's what you're looking for.

Jeanniebeans, antibiotics don't destroy the immune system. At all. They are getting ineffective coz bacteria are getting immune to them.

Generally speaking, yes!!

We are MUCH better off, as a species, with vaccines then we would be without.

Yet, I am vigorously opposed to an across the board government-imposed mandatory vaccination of adults.

Though it makes sense to me when people are entering a different country, or taking certain jobs.

I am strongly opposed to a mandatory vaccination of children.

We should educate people so they will vaccinate willingly.

This is all true.

Also, healthy children naturally have different immune systems, making them susceptible to germs that wouldn't effect a healthy adult. Same goes for the very old.

Also, at the end of the bell curve for healthy adults are people with genetic conditions - no matter how well they eat, exercise, and such, they will still be susceptible.

Maybe one day we will genetically engineer people to be immune...until then, we will need vaccines for these edges cases.




Exactly. The most intensely vibrant and strong immune system can still be blind-sided.

I rarely insult people but there is a limit to the number of times I am going to endure people on this forum telling me I am ignorant simply because they don't understand or comprehend my point of view.

I merely mirrored the remark back to see how he liked it.

He said: "JB, your saying science has failed is an illustration of your vast ignorance."

I said: "I think your worshiping (medical)science as you do is an illustration of your vast ignorance."

And your typical scientific person will say that telling someone they are "ignorant" is not an insult, it is just telling them that they merely lack knowledge or education.

I've been there before.



Suspicious? Yes I am. I am not so willing to place my life and my trust in just any doctor or in everything you hear about how great the medical community is at curing disease.

The more kinds of cancer they discover and the more they find treatment and/or cures for, the more cancers seems to continue to exist. People get so distracted fighting the disease they sometimes forget about preventative measures.



My point is that people should try to focus a little more on health than they do on disease. Do a google image search for disease. See what pictures come up. Now do a google image search for health.

These images create vibrations and they will effect what you attract into your reality. Your thoughts and your mind is the one thing that will effect your own personal well being more than anything else. Why do you think placebos work sometimes? Because they effect your thoughts, and your mind.

So you all want to narrow the topic of this thread to strictly vaccines. Okay, so I'm going off topic. I look at the whole picture of health, not at one specific disease.

dis-ease.

That is the absence of health.

Me too.

I am strongly apposed to mandatory vaccination.

Agreed. Natural selection at it's finest. If it is mandatory it
is just frustrating deficient genetic material from it's natural
course of elimination!



Of course, truly exiguous genetic material always finds a way!





(generally speaking)

see what?

You hit the nail on the head. JB is not interested in knowledge of science, its too much hard work, she would rather live inside her own imagination. I did that myself for years.

On the healthy side of things, wasn't it the healthiest people who typically died from the 1918 flu epidemic? Wasn't it becuase their immune response was so vigorous that they died?

Inflammation can kill you just as fast if unchecked. Medical science is the only path through the killing fields of these viral agents.

You believe this without evidence. This is a perfect example of why all of your conclusions are without merit, at any given time you will accept something like this becuase of your mistrust of government even in the face of no evidence.

JB I welcome people demonstrating my ignorance, it gives me a chance of learning, you however . . . .

PLEASE demonstrate my ignorance, you will need to stay on topic tho, which neither of you seem able to do, I mean we went from vaccines to pain killers to cancer in a short hop becuase you couldn't make a logical argument nor find what you wanted in a quick google search.

I would love to see your evidence for the government created cancer, or that the infectious disease we have mentioned here were created as viral bioweapons. Personally to believe this in the face of no evidence would be irrational, and IMHO a paranoid delusion.

Like Bravelady, I grew up when mass introduction of the polio vaccine came out so it's the most harmful disease I've witnessed. Back then, the ideal was to 'eradicate' this disease. It was thought the only way to do it was to deny the virus a place to thrive - our bodies.

When we had reached a point when new polio cases were no longer being reported, laboratoies were suppose to destroy the samples they had been keeping for research. If new cases were discovered it was likely that they would not be of the same strain and would require a new research anyway.

It all made sense and the only education necessary was where the vaccine could be had, because few had not witnessed polio at its worst.

We did succeed and it proved that vaccine could work IF everyone took on the immunity the vaccine provided.

That's why when new vaccines came out for chilhood diseases, they were made mandatory, because people gained a false sense of security when polio and menegitis became more invisible. The absolute worst reason for not procuring such vaccines is "no one gets that anymore, and I'm not going to risk my child to a vaccine." No one gets it because they are vaccinated.

Not all viruses can be erradicated but they can mutate and those who don't receive vaccines put the rest of society at risk. That's why the mandate has continued but has relaxed. Some are not healthy enough, or have allergies to something in the vaccine - ok, I can understand that.

Some have a religious reason and now even that can be an excuse but personally I find that a terribly offensive reason. People have the right to their beliefs but when those beliefs put uncounted populations at risk, the beliefs cease to be benign and become harmful to society.

Are there any other reasons besides 'conspiracy-phobia' against vaccination?

Perhaps the education we need most should begin in chilhood and from kindergarten on, children should be taught age appropriate ethics so that when entering adulthood, everyone understands that taking a one in 2.5 million (or more) risk for the benefit of the entire population is worth taking, because the entire population includes all the people you care most about.

True.



We did not have 100% of the citizenry vaccinated. Were the amish vaccinated? Certainly there were a few paranoid people living in remote locations of the US who were not vaccinated. We were able to destroy polio with something less than 100%.



I'm curious about any temporary fascism that we may have gone through. I wasn't aware that vaccines were ever forcibly imposed on everyone.

Childhood vaccinations are mandatory prerequisites for various things, including attendance in the public school system. This is fine.

Are there hospitals that require you to agree to vaccination in order to use their birthing services? If so, I'd be fine with that.

But they aren't absolutely mandatory, afaik.

It's still legal to birth your child at home, and its still legal to choose not to send them to public school and to choose not to have them vaccinated. I think that protecting those freedoms is essential. Looking on a time scale of centuries, I think that protecting those freedoms is more important than saving individual lives.




Exactly. And the anti-vaxers are doing a disservice to everyone else.




Against vaccination, or against mandatory vaccination?

As far as 'reasons not to be vaccinated' - that can depend on the disease being vaccinated against.

Well for one, my cousin died from cancer caused by agent orange. This was confirmed by doctors. He was on Military disability for it.


Here is a link I found about government created diseases:

Government created diseases:
http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/AIDS.htm




A world of war will always have disease. Science can be used for good, but it is eventually used for evil and war and weapons.

A more perfect world, with no war and very little disease could happen if people spent their time and intelligence and resources towards that end. But that will probably never happen.

Its very sad really.