here in texas, if you kill someone, they send you to prison... if you rape and kill, or steal thier money and kill them, the state will kill you... so i would suggest not to kill anyone...

Those are obvious things though, we don't need a book to tell us those things are harmful.

Spider, I thank you very much for attributing these insights to me.

Unfortunately, I can't claim them as my original observations. There are many intellectuals who will explain the absurdities of these things to you.

Oh by the way, Jesus didn't spiritually die. He only physical died for a brief period and then was resurrected.

All humans die. If the punishment for sin is "death" then it has to be spiritual death, not merely death of the body.

Clearly Jesus did not die spiritually since he will supposedly live for all of eternity. And therefore he could not have "paid" for anyone's sins if the punishment for sin is spiritual death.

Just yet another extreme flaw in these myths.

well, some people do, otherwise we wouldn't need the laws... "free will" is very subjective, whats right to you is not always right to others...

says who?

I still dont follow where the numbers for this 'math' come from,,,,,

who determined how much time passed between the creation of the earth and the time jesus passed? How did they come to such a precise calculation ?

in one biblical DAY (the time it took for God to create dark and light,,which isnt specifically annotated at all), many of what we now consider years could have passed,, who felt of such superior intellect to actually claim to have figured this time period out?

and the bible never says it is,,

'scientists' claim their calculations from biblical references would make it that age,,, but there is no such actual claim in the bible

it from some people called "creationist", they got that figure from counting back how far the moon moves away from the earth every year, and say from that there is no way the earth is over 6000 years old... look it up, they are way out there on their theories...

I trust enough not to look it up, I am aware of all the different theories out there and dont doubt this is one

IM just saying, the bible doesnt AGE itself in that manner,, people have to make HUGE assumptions to come up with such math,,,

i never understood the part in the OT where someone begot someone else, and lived for 837 years... what is that about?

Im no biblical scholar

It speaks to me that genealogy is mentioned in several places in the bible but not always through the same genaological line

(it would be like if I wrote a book about my ancestors on my moms side, and my brother wrote one about the ancestors on my dads side,, they would appear different genealogical lines because our geneology branches out so much over time)


I think this type of mention was as a record of ancestry but also an attempt to tie in that ancestry with the culture of the one writing the book(greek, or hebrew, or jewish,,,etc,,,)



It would be like me writing about all my family members as they relate to my daughter to show her connection to being 'black'

and my husband writing about all his family members as it relates to my daughter to show her connection to being 'white'


,,,,,in short, it served as historical refrence AND a way to lay claim,,,,

i was mainly talking about the 837 years part... thats what i don't understand

I think it's crystal clear that there are indeed people who "need" laws.

Although in truth, they already have them and break them anyway, so clearly having laws doesn't deter the criminally ill mind.

The problem I have with the Abrahamic religions (and Christianity in particular) is that they try to hold this over EVERYONE claiming that everyone is a sinner in dire need of repentance. It's utter nonsense.

Just as we know that there are criminally-minded people in this world we also know that there are many good people. In fact, you can be very thankful that MOST people are indeed good.

Statistically less than 1% of the human population is involved in violent crimes. That means that 99% of the people are not involved in violent crimes.

At the worst possible case, including the some of the most petty non-violent crimes only about 10% of the population has officially broken the law.

That leaves 90% of the people being "good".

So we're suppose to support this religion as a 'facade' to try to convince the criminal mind that it might be true and hope that this will deter them from committing crimes?

I've actually heard this position put forth by some people. When I speak out against the religion they shush me up saying, "Don't convince the criminals that there is no God!"



Like as if that's going to matter.

Clearly the criminals do their thing anyway.

In fact, some of them even claim to believe, they just choose to do bad things anyway. Some of them even claim they can't help themselves. Maybe they are possessed by demons?

One of my close childhood friends was often confessing to me of horrible things that he had done and he kept saying that he couldn't help himself. He claimed that he didn't want to do them but it was almost like as if another person was taking control of his mind.

Well, we know that such mental illnesses occur in people. I tried to get him to seek professional help, but obviously I couldn't force him to do that. And he didn't.

The last I heard he's was in jail for selling crack cocaine and other charges.

~~~~

If he is "possessed" by a demon, then it seems to me that the demon would be the guilty party and not the person who had been possessed. Especially if that person was complaining that he didn't really want to be involved in that stuff anyway.

I don't understand mental illness, I've never experienced it and I hope I never do. But clearly mental illness exists.

Where is mental illness mentioned in the Bible?

People claim that the Bible contains all knowledge, etc. But where is there anything about mental illness and how that relates to "sin".

How can a mentally ill person be held responsible for their actions if they have lost control of their very own mind?

The Christians act like everyone is personally responsible for either being a sinner, or not. But where does that leave the mentally ill?

Christianity could only work in a perfect world where everyone is of sound mind and can therefore actually be responsible for their actions.

Who was it that use to rape women and store their body parts in a freezer and eat them for meals?

Gee whiz, if that's no mentally ill I don't know what is.

I mean, what kind of a "sane" person would do a thing like that by rational CHOICE?

There has to be a sickness going on there.

says me, mh, and many christians. i've gone throught bible chorologically decades ago when i began to question all that i'd been taught in my youth and if i'm to take the bible literally i come up with roughly six thousand years from 'biblical day' one, as you call it until present day. the topic is about the historical correctness of the bible is it not? does history have to be taken literally? if not, what good are any historical writings? do the reading and the math. don't do the reading and the math. i could care less, but i'll maintain that biblical 'history' puts the age of the universe way way off that determined by physics. like everything else where the bible conflicts with science, i'll stick with the science.

we all put faith in someone,,,,

Adam and Eve were genetically perfect when they were created. Because they originally had no genetic flaws, they produced children who were almost completely perfect. That's how their children were able to marry one another and have children without them being deformed, there weren't very many defective genes in the human genome. The first humans lived a long time because their DNA was nearly perfect. It only started to develop defective genes following the fall.

You don't even try to think before you post, do you? It's so obvious that no thought went into that response, just your pathetic rage against God.

We're not guilty for being physically imperfect. We are guilty for breaking God's laws. Adam and Eve proved that perfect flesh doesn't make perfect people. Any one of us could make the decision to be sinless, but we don't. That's what we are guilty of.



WHERE DO YOU GET THIS STUFF!

I never said we were guilty for having defective DNA!

I hope you were just tired when you posted this, if this were the best thinking you could do, I would feel bad for laughing.





I've clearly stated many times that Adam and Eve PROVED THAT PERFECT DNA DOESN'T MAKE THE PERFECT MAN. We don't have the ability to be perfect, because of sins of pride and giving in to the desires of the flesh, not because our bodies aren't perfect. Jesus didn't have a perfect body, but he lived a sinless life.

Really, I think it's very funny that you get these crazy strawman arguments in your head and somehow convince yourself it's what I said.



Oh, because you say so? You DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT I POSTED, HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE?






People who believe through faith, yes. But the first Christians were all killed for their beliefs and if Christianity were a scam created by them, they would have given up the scam before they died. They couldn't get rich if they were dead. Does it really take a genius to figure that out? When a man is looking at his death, he's going to confess his lies to get out of it.



I didn't call you stupid you giant cry baby, I said that your post was stupid. Don't you think it's about time you grew up?





Only a fool looks at himself as sees a sinless man.





I haven't seen any Christians talking about their fear of hell, so it's not us with the fear of being condemned by God. Project much?



Seriously, stop it. You are killing me.



Reading is fundamental. Oh, I forgot, you are a "Professor", but only in the same way that a child with a box on his head is an astronaut.



Certainly, you would be the first one I would come to about righteousness.






There is an easy and simple way to be spiritual perfect, it's not God's fault if you reject Jesus, is it? You are so filled with hate and anger and venom. I still remember your "Christianity ruined my life!!!" rant. When you get past the anger, you'll find that Christianity makes much more sense...when your mind isn't so clouded with hate that you are incapable of reason.



Still on the genetics thing. Maybe if your genetics were better, you would have understood my post?



Of course you say that, you are blinded by hatred. You are so blind that the fact that Christian beliefs match up to modern physics and cosmology simply goes over your head while you continue to foam and the mouth and jump up and down, as if Christianity were bugs bunny and you were Yosemite Sam.




How could I hate anyone who makes me laugh so much?

In a nasty insane illogical argument such as the one above, the laughing faces are tools of ridicule. What they represent is a statement that implies: "You are so wrong its funny."



Not true because "sin" is not well defined. Some claim we were born in sin, whatever that means.

Sin boils down to disobedience to the Christian Biblical God, according to Christians. Therefore, if you are not a Christian you are automatically a sinner according to them. But even if you are a Christian, you are a sinner because they claim and teach that all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

So, no Spider. According to Christianity, no person could make the decision to be sinless without being the target of ridicule by you and anyone who believes as you do.

It is an insane and circular argument.

*****

So what could it possibly mean to be "Born in sin?" I will give you my opinion on that. The term is a metaphor for genetics. Since you convinced me that the Bible has metaphors, and I am going along with you on that here is the metaphor for the claim that we are all born in sin.

It has to do with genetics.

Adam and Eve were genetically perfect according to you. So what would have caused their children to have imperfect genes? Here is my guess.

The temptation of Eve was sex. She was seduced by some other non-perfect or non-human being. Perhaps a fallen angel. Perhaps the mixture of humans with one of the "fallen angels" was the shameful act represented by the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

In the Bible the term "tree" often represented a genetic family tree. The tree in the garden was not a normal tree. It was a less perfect being who tempted Eve (and Adam) into sexual pleasure and intercourse which resulted in off spring who were genetically imperfect.

Hence "Born in sin..."

Hence the shame.

Of course the story is very symbolic and full of metaphors and it is difficult to know if any of it is true or to be taken literally, but being "born in sin" has to do with sex and mixing genes with the wrong or "imperfect" beings.

Yes, exactly.



Not being a Christian isn't a sin. Does being wrong on everything you think the Bible says ever make you wonder if you should actually read it?



Time, UV radiation, free radicals, etc, just like now.



No. Just no.



It's kind of funny that you just make up definitions and assume nobody will know better.







WAIT! You said earlier that the ancient Israelites were too dumb to use metaphors in their literature, but now you insist that the Story of the Fall is full of metaphors.

SO?

YOU are the person who insisted that the Bible has and uses metaphors. I accepted your claim (your premise) and I am now moving forward on THAT premise.

If you want to go back and recount your claim and change it and say that the Bible does NOT use metaphors, then we can start all over.

I am attempting to proceed with the discussion according to what you believe about metaphors; but you need to make up your mind.

If we are not going to agree or assume the same premise about metaphors, the debate is pointless and will only degenerate into insults.

You decide. Metaphors or no metaphors?

Otherwise, I will discontinue my thoughts on the subject.

So you are admitting that I'm right. I accept your apology.



Of course the Bible has metaphors, those who say it doesn't a) Don't know what a metaphor is or b) Have never read the Bible or c) Are trying to sell you something (probably a load of crap) or d) Any combination of the above.