One of the things we claimed independence from was religious restriction or discrimination in England.

And yet we have allowed one religion here to dominate and insidiously [permeate almost all aspects of life in this country. Prayers at public events, using the bible to male laws of the land, bible sayings on government buildings, etc....

What happened to the true freedom of religion or lack of in this country? Were the forefathers incapable of limiting religion enough to stop the domination? What do you think happened?

Nah, we just have people who can't take things at face value, and ignore what our Founding Fathers had to say about religion.

They think it just doesn't apply to them.

nothing really happened

its just kind of difficult to 'limit' something without 'restricting' it in some way

kind of an oxymoron

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".
"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Together with the Free Exercise Clause these two clauses make up what are called the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.[1]
END

the government did right to allow people to practice or not practice how they see fit regardless of their numbers,,,

I don't know, you seem to be here trying to restrict religion...

Only a Christian would feel that way. Because they are so spoiled in this country. They assume they are what everyone needs and when challenged they cry "persecution"....lol

Too funny and thanks for proving my point.

The violation has happened on both sides of the first amendment.

The government has shown "preference" to one religion by even using the bible in a court room, putting god into our pledge to our flag, etc... and restricting those who do not practice Christianity from having their public prayer at the game, from having their holy book verses published on government walls, etc....

So so far this country has failed properly applying the first amendment. Why is that? Are we as humans unable to make the sacrifices to be fair to others through fear?

I guess we havent found those persons knowledgable enough to decide what 'proper' application of the first amendment is

thats why there are courts to 'interpret' such things as they arise,,,

The courts have failed to administer it properly on a few occasions also.

Is it because some religions teach that they are the only true right way and all others are wrong that most religious people cannot be fair in their judgement of respecting others rights and beliefs?

ID say it has more to do with humans wanting what they want and when they want it in numbers it is more likely to happen than to not,,,


there is no 'right' that can be claimed by any religion, people have their perspectives on 'rightness' regardless of where it comes from and would organize according to these common perceptions regardless of any 'relgion' or religious label

You ought to heed the wise words of Jefferson. "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Too funny, Jefferson also found Christianity to be evil, Imagine that.

Of course Christians being the spoiled ones in this country feel put out by the challenge but challenging them is the best thing for this country so we can live in a more fair and balanced country.

Our founding fathers never truely intended for there to be freedom of religion. Nor did they hope that our right to have guns would somehow be used to kill eachother.
Their written word is left for interpretation to suit the current needs of those who are doing the interpreting.

Kinda like the bible...which by the way, was also written by man.

what is the challenge asked of christians?

to feel free to exercise their religion or to feel 'sort of' free, or to put a limit on how freely they exercise?

and who will determine for them the appropriate amount of religious freedom to express, and wont those people be guilty of the same kind of dominance and restriction that was being complained of as being a problem with our independence?

Im not understanding

christianity isnt the problem

ignorance, amongst christians or any other group is,,,,

we still have religious freedom in the usa

some people may still try to proselytize and shove their religion
down others throats too.

Yes the forefathers were indeed incapable of stopping the inevitable.

Especially if they were offering "FREEDOM" of religion.

How could they stop it?

People continued to come to America from Europe and brought their bibles with them.

Why would that stop?

There simply weren't many other religoins to compete.

Moreover other religions such as the pagan religions aren't of a competitive nature. Pagans don't go around trying to convert people to become pagans. Pagans are also often solitary and private in their spirituality as well.

So a brass crass religion that is actively proselytizing and evangelizing people to join their churches and accept Christ as their savior are naturally going to dominate. It's their very nature to be dominant in that sense.

So that's what happened.

Accept Jesus as your savior or be damned.

Period, AMEN.

They aren't open to discussing alternative views of God or disbelief in a God. Either confess that Jesus is the King of Kings or be damned.

That's the bottom line, whether stated politely or harshly, it doesn't matter, it's still the bottom line either way.

USA is a free country, everyone can be the religion they wish to be. Let's break it down for you.

Prayers at public events: Public is the community, not the private homes. It is the public area for the people of the community. If one wishes to pray in public, why does it matter to you? What harm does it bring forth to you someone praying in public? No one said you HAD to pray a long. That is what they intended when they made this country, it was made to where the government isn't going to force a religion on someone. Someone praying in public on their own free will and possibly asking others to join in isn't taking the freedom of refusal away. Again, what harm does it bring to you someone praying in public? What pain does it cause? Please answer me these questions so I can then understand why you give a flip that others are praying in public. You don't like it, walk away, ignore it, disregard it, or anything you wish. Again you aren't being forced into joining, so why exactly does it matter if others do it?



Again, how does this effect you in any way? How does this take away your freedom of religion or freedom to lack thereof? How does this force any religion on you? What does it truly matter if it says it on a government building? Would you refuse to eat at Taco bell if they had a bible verse at one point or other outside their building? Possibly to comfort people during a war or comfort an important family from the community during a major loss of someone they just encountered. How does this force anything on you? Just because a "Government" building has it on it?

Christianity isn't the problem?

They how do you explain that all we ever see in religious forums are debates about Christianity versus the non-Christians?

Do you see the names of any other religions in there?

It doesn't matter whether I claim to be a Wiccan, or a Buddhist, or an Atheists, or any other form of spirituality you can think of. The Christians would STILL be trying to tell me that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and whatever my beliefs, or non-beliefs are, they must necessarily be WRONG.

So how can you say that Christianity isn't the problem?

It's the only religion arrogant enough to argue with EVERY other spiritual or non-spiritual belief on the planet.

Well, potentially Islam is just as bad, but that's really the same basic religion. It's based on the same fundamental scriptures of a Jealous God who commands that no other Gods shall be put before him.

And both of those religions broke off from Judaism which doesn't seem to be quite as arrogant as either Christianity or Islam. But that could depend on specific sects of Jews too. I imagine they have their own "denominations and sects" to deal with. I don't truly know much about modern day Judaism.

I know that Albert Einstein was a Jew and he renounced it in favor of Buddhism, so that's good enough for me.

But truly, how can you say that Christianity isn't the problem when it's basically always "Christianity against the WORLD".

Christians look at it like "The WORLD against Christianity" but that's only because they can't see that the ARROGANCE arises with Christianity, and NOT from all those other beliefs or non-beliefs. (except perhaps other Abrahamic Religions)

In fact, I often hear Christians saying, "Well duh! Doesn't every religion in the world believe that there religion the ONLY TRUTH of God?"

NO THEY DON'T !

And they don't go around trying to convince people that God will hate them if they refuse to obey their RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE either!

Those claims are innate to the Abrahamic religions and find their epitome in Christianity with the claim that Jesus is the "Only begotten son of God who came as the sacrificial lamb of God to pay for the salvation of mankind"

And quite frankly the REST OF THE WORLD is getting sick and tired of hearing that broken record.

Because of people trying to put down the religion. Look at the forums Abra. Most to all the Christian themed threads are hateful threads, threads to put down Christianity, ect.



And neither do Christians. God loves all, this includes the non-believers. God still loves these people. Does a parent not love their child because they punished their child in one way or other for disobedience? God loves all my friend.

And just why do you think that is Cowboy?

It's nothing more than a reaction to Christian proselytizing and evangelizing.




What do you mean "And neither do Christians"?

Are you blind Cowboy? Christianity is being held up by Christians as the "Word of God" all the time! Constantly.

Sure, it may be true that the individual followers of the religion don't all personally go around proselyting the religion. But as an organized religion it has a history of proselytizing and evangelizing. It's easy for fundamentalists to get the individual followers to support their political agendas and so forth using the religion as a scapegoat.

And besides, you aren't one to talk.

You have preached hard-core fundamentalism yourself using this religion. Have you forgotten that when you first came on here you were claiming to be a "Servant of God" out to "Save Souls" because you "Love People"?

So you came on the forums trying to SAVE people from the God described in a religion that they don't even believe in, and when they told you that they aren't interested in the religion YOU continually beat them over the head with arguments that "Jesus is Lord and there is no other, blah, blah, blah"

You were proselytizing the religion quite heavily for quite some time. More recently you seem to have backed-off a slight bit from your original tactics. But you still talk as if the religion is the only way to God.

In your very post here what are you saying?



See? You are arguing as if everyone should believe in Christianity as we speak!

You're arguing that this God who punishes people for their disobedience still loves them anyway, even the non-believers.

You're acting like everyone should believe in this religion even as you claim that "Christians aren't like that".



You're still talking to people who have no interest in your religion like as if they should still by buying into it, and you're being totally ignorant toward everyone who, either doesn't believe its true, or has a different view of God.

How are you being ignorant toward them?

By totally ignoring the fact that they they have already told you umpteen times that they don't believe in your religion.

Yet, you continually speak to everyone as if they should buy into your religious claims, even after they have been telling you for years precisely they they aren't the slightest bit interested in such an absurd picture of God.

Sheesh!

What does it take to get through to people like you?

How blind can people be to not be able to see that it's Christianity that is beating everyone else over the head with this God who "punishes" everyone for absurd things like not even believing in the religion.



How can you NOT see that it's coming FROM Christianity?

No matter how many times I tell you that I don't believe in the religion, you keep talking to me like as if you never heard a word I said.

You keep coming back with "God loves all, this includes the non-believers. God still loves these people. Does a parent not love their child because they punished their child in one way or other for disobedience? God loves all my friend.

You're still talking to me like as if I should believe in the Christian God who punishes his children. And that the mere fact that I don't believe in this God doesn't change a thing.



It's truly unbelievable.

And then I try to explain to you precisely WHY I don't believe in your religion, and what do you do? You CRY!

"Why are you bashing my religion? I'm just trying to tell you what God expects from you"



I'm not bashing your religion Cowboy. I'm simply COUNTERING your constantly proselytizing of it!

I'm trying to explain to you why I have totally rejected the Hebrew picture of God as being utterly absurd. And you're STILL talking to me like as if I should believe in that picture of God.




Yep, it's definitely the Christians who aren't "getting this" Cowboy.