Valid for you maybe, but not for me.
I have raised the bar on how much b.s. I can handle.

When there is evidence of important historical figures, but none of the most "historical and famous" one of all time, that seems suspicious to me. No one even ever heard of Jesus until centuries after his supposed death.

If he rose from the dead you would think that would have been a really big deal and there would have been some records of it back then.

What I am saying is that there is no historical evidence or valid reason to believe it is true; so why would I?

What I did say is that anyone can believe anything they want.

I personally have just raised the bar on what I will accept as true because I am really sick of untruths. (Seriously fed up.)

I'm maxed out with untruths.

The strange thing is I have found more evidence of the existence of aliens than I have of the fictional characters in the Bible. I have actually met witnesses in person.

However, I no longer accept the existence of aliens as real physical beings, because of lack of hard evidence. If I ever see one, I will inform them that they do not exist.

Goodnight, sleep well all.

God Bless,,

if the idea is catching on it just might be due to actual historical events and those ongoing events as i type this. were it not for religious dogma, the faiths as you call it, many of the problems in the world would not be problems. with the crusades, the inquisition, witch trials, jim jones, david koresh, tim mcveigh and now this jihad we must all endure not to mention abortion clinic bombings and the murder of doctors and the continuing conflict betwenn muslims and jews in the mid east it doesn't take much thought to conclude that were none of this religious crap in the minds of people there would be less human peril "in the name of god or allah". "give up what you believe or else" is hardly the mantra being shouted today. it't the "believe as i do or else" as preached by all faiths that has prevailed on this planet to the detriment of humanity.

Human beings have been human beings with or without philosophy/religion/politics.

We can debate all day about whats done 'in the name of God' that has caused harm, but if we honestly assessed that next to whats done 'in the name of God' that has lead to charity and good will, I doubt there will be a comparison.


This is because man has the capacity for good and bad, whatever excuse man might find for it, whatever 'reason' gets quoted.

there is one fact that no religious person can argue and that is the fact that scientist,doctors and astronomers would be way ahead in cures,discoveries and hell throw in technology if it wasn't for religion.remember most scientist were scared to do anything cause of the fear of being prosecuted for interfering in gods work.

this is fact.hell in the 1800's there probably would have been TV's already

that is not fact , it is assumption,,,,

its like the assumption that 'but for' black people being brought from AFrica they/we would all still be slaves

its fallacious logic, as noone can say what would or would not have happened under a different circumstance,,,



and if it were fact, I dont find it relevant to anything much as we possibly would have had the diseases alot sooner too, under that same logic


and possibly we would be a healthier people, physically and spiritually, WITHOUT alot of the technology we have become so inhumanly dependent upon,,,

msharmony come on even Sir Isaac Newton was a christian himself and couldn't show his discoveries out of fear of being prosecuted..the list is quite long of people in his shoes.

This is true. Even today religious people would rather argue that we should believe in ancient Hebrew fables over our very own scientific knowledge of the actual universe in which we live.

Evolution is true. The Bible has been proven to be a false myth. The world is not the way it is because of any "fall from grace" that can be blamed on the human species. This world was filled with death, disease, thorny plants, and had a dog-eat-dog nature long before mankind came onto the scene.

Reptiles crawled on their bellies long before there were any humans around to be coerced into becoming "sinners".

This thread has gotten side tracked into a discussion of modern day "Jews" etc. But with respect to the original topic, as far as I'm concerned the Bible has long since been discredited.

There is absolutely no credibility in these ancient collections of fables that have been canonized by men into a single religious dogma. And people really need to start to come to grips with the reality of this.

It's already a done deal. It's already been discredited.

Now it's just a matter of getting the masses to quit clinging to these myths, and supporting them for all the WRONG reasons, no matter how well-intentioned those reasons might be emotionally.

The focal point of Christianity is Jesus. People on in love with the image of Jesus because they have "perfected" him in their own minds, and like to view him as the "ultimately truth" etc.

They fear that if Jesus can no longer stand on the shoulders of Yahweh, then he would instantly become a totally meaningless concept.

In fact, I've heard many Christian men who have been confronted with the suggestion that Jesus might not have actually been the only begotten son of God say things like, "If he lied about that I would crucify him myself"

In other words, they are prepared to nail Jesus to a pole if they were to discover that he was indeed nothing more than a mere mortal man. Why? Because they feel that he would have been a LIAR if that were true.

That is truly SAD that people are so QUICK to judge Jesus like that without even considering that THEIR CHARGE may not even be remotely close to the truth.

They have already been convinced that the New Testament rumors are indeed the VERBATIM words of Jesus and they would HOLD JESUS himself responsible for THEIR incorrect assumptions.

But that is FAR FROM THE TRUTH!

There is no a single solitary word in the New Testament that was written by the man named Jesus. Nor is there anywhere in the Bible where any such claim is even made.

On the contrary the people who wrote the New Testament were putting words in the mouth of Jesus. Some of those words may have actually been the thoughts and teachings of Jesus, but to believe that every single word written in the New Testament is the verbatim words of Jesus is totally without merit.

In fact, even in these stories when he was being charged with blaspheme for saying that is a son of God, they acknowledge that Jesus replied that all are Gods and children of the most high.

Jesus wasn't claiming to be anything special.

In fact, if you read the Bible CLOSELY most of the claims in the Bible that Jesus was the "only begotten son" of God are actually WRITTEN as commentary! They are written as the commentary opinions of the authors, NOT as direct claims that came directly from Jesus.

For example one of the Chrisitans most faviorite verses, John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John wasn't even attributing these words to Jesus when he wrote them. This is just John's own personal narrative commentary. And there is a LOT of that type of thing in the New Testament.

In fact the vast majority of the New Testament is nothing more than various authors offering their own OPINIONS of what they think Jesus might have stood for.

Yet, people act like this stuff came directly from Jesus verbatim without question.

Even the authors of these stories aren't making that claim. That's a totally bogus misconception that is held out by believers in these stories.

The TRUTH IS,....

The Bible does not contain a single solitary WORD that was actually written by the man being referred to as Jesus.

Jesus is NOT even in the Bible at all actually!

It's a lie to point to the New Testament and say, "Jesus said this, or Jesus said that".

We have no CLUE what the man Jesus might have actually said.

All we know is that the hearsay RUMORS that are called the New Testament make outrageous claims about what this man named Jesus might have stood for, and who he might have been.

And that's all we can know from these writings.

If these writings are false there's no need to be chomping at the bit to nail Jesus to a pole for having been a liar.

Give him a break for crying out loud!

Perhaps he was just grossly misunderstood. Or even PLOTTED against to be discredited for what he ACTUALLY taught and instead be used as an idol image to prop up the original doctrine and Pharisees that he obviously opposed.

Even according to these hearsay rumors, Jesus renounced the Pharisees as hypocrites. Jesus renounced the horrible immoral values and teachings of the original "God of Abraham" just be the via the far better moral teachings that he offered.

I don't see how anyone can believe that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham when these stories clearly have Jesus rejecting those teachings and replacing them with actual sanity.

Jesus doesn't need to be discredited in order to renounce the Abrahamic religions. Unless a person is hell-bend on passing judgment on Jesus because of hearsay rumors that Jesus himself didn't even WRITE!

Oh come on!

I guess you don't realise the profound "scientific" claims made by an ancient people over 2500 years ago?

Ocean currents were "discovered" by a man who followed the words of the Bible.
The Bible states that God created all visible things out of invisible things. (molecules, atoms, quarks, etc...)
The Bible makes references to the wind currents.
References to valleys on the bottom of the oceans.
References that the universe has not always been here.
The Bible says the earth is spherical and hangs on "nothing".
The Bible emphasises cleanliness and washing with water.

Now let's look at some things that while not direct, can be inferred:

The Bible asks if man can send voices over lightning. (sounds like electronics to me)
The OT prohibits the eating of certain foods. The dangers of pork have only recently been "discovered". Same with the amount of humans allergic to shellfish.
Characters which were thought to be fictional have been verified by archeologists within the past 40 years.
Locations which were thought to be.....(same as above)
Destruction of cities and temples were predicted ahead of time.
The fates of cities have been predicted. (some of those cities are not of "Abrahamic" decent, hence not self-fulfilling)


The list goes on and on. You can search for yourself and find over 700. I bet there would be over at least 100 of them that you can't deny or dismiss.



Nowhere in the Bible is knowledge prohibited. In fact, it is encouraged. What you see is from men, not from a book...

Exactly.

Sir Isaac Newton was a very sincere and devout Christian who finally came to the realization that no matter how badly he wanted to make the religion work, it simply could not be true. And he had an extremely deep desire to make work.

People are being deluded by false propaganda that claims that Christians would never renounce the divinity of "The Christ".

Well, by the most technical definition I guess that's true. Because once they have realize that Jesus could not have been "The Christ" they are renouncing "Christianity" and therefore they can no longer claim to be a "Christian".

But as a practical matter that baloney.

I'm a Christian. I was born and raised a Christian, and as far as I'm concerned I'll always be a "Christian" in that sense.

I am a Christian who has come to the very same realization that Isaac Newton came to. Jesus could not have been the son of the God of the Torah. That scenario simply cannot be made to make sense without grave contradictions.

There has to be another explanation and I personally feel confident that I've found a perfectly viable explanation.

Jesus was simply a mortal man (albeit a highly spiritually motivated man) who tried his best to renounce the horrible moral values that had been taught by the Torah. And he tried to do this in a way that would preserve a belief in spirituality.

He acknowledged a "higher power". A higher power that he claimed to be ONE with. That my friends, is viable picture of God often referred to as pantheism or panentheism. It was also the picture of "God" as viewed by the Mahayana Buddhists of that time period. In fact many Jews themselves view God as an "Unknowable spirit", not as a Zeus-like old man in the sky who is chomping at the bit to be obeyed lest he unleash his wrath on you!

Jesus couldn't very well just come out and say, "Ok everyone, let's convert to Buddhism!"

That would have never worked. The Jewish culture for the most part was far too deeply embedded in their vision of God as a Zeus-like Fatherly image who would severely punish anyone who refused to obey his commandments.

So Jesus had no choice but to work within that social picture the best he could.

He tried hard to get people to see that even within the Torah there existed verses that implied that all are gods. He pointed that out specifically. He claimed to the people that "I and the Father are ONE" (which is the Buddhist or pantheistic view of spirit). And when confronted with that he said, "Is it not written in your law that 'I said, ye are gods'?" All are children of God and that was the point he was trying to make.

Whatsoever you do to your brother, you also do unto me.

We are ALL ONE with God.

There are no exceptions.

Jesus then went about using the most clever ways that he could think of to try to convince people to quit judging others and stoning people to death in the name of God. He renounced that dastardly behavior that had been taught by the Torah. Jesus wasn't supporting that doctrine!

Jesus renounced an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and instead talk people to turn the other cheek. The teachings of the Torah had people believing that it's perfectly ok to seek revenge and get even. Their doctrine of a God condoned that and supported it, basically directed it with "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". Yeah man! GET EVEN with those who do you wrong!

Jesus renounced that and taught to forgive those who trespass against you. Don't return violence with violence, instead METAPHORICALLY "turn the other cheek". Jesus taught in parables and metaphors. He didn't mean to literally turn the other cheek toward someone who is actually punching you in the face. Perhaps RUN maybe. But don't just stand there offering up your other cheek like an *******. That's NOT what Jesus meant to do.

Jesus taught in metaphors and parables. And he had to walk on eggshells because he was desperately trying to renounce a horrible religious doctrine in favor of replacing it with sane behavior, WITHOUT actually appearing to be rejecting the original religion.

He didn't come to destroy but to SAVE.

He was trying to save the Jews from their own horrible religion.

Jesus renounced the religious leaders of the day as being hypocrite. He referred to the Torah as THEIR LAWS, not God's Laws.

Jesus was renouncing the Torah as being the misguided notions of men.

He was doing this the best he could without coming right out and renouncing the concept of "God" that people wanted to believe in.

Jesus was a spiritual man himself. He wasn't attempting to destroy a concept of God and replace that with a notion of atheism.

Jesus just wanted to get people to move away from worshiping the Torah as if it was the "Word of God".

Jesus probably did say things like "I am the light and life and truth of the world". NOT THE TORAH.

But he didn't mean that arrogantly. Because he was implying that we are ALL the light and LIFE of the world.

Let's not worship some ancient DOGMA as the "Word of God". Let's love each other and treat each other as we would like to be treated ourselves.

Ye are Gods! Ye create your own reality in the way that you choose to behave and live your life and treat others.

That was the message of Jesus.

Yet look at what Jesus' has been turned back into. Religion has turned Jesus right back into the very thing that Jesus was striving hard to overcome - The foolish adherence to ancient dogma as the "Word of God" used to override genuine LOVE and COMPASSION for one another and LIFE.

The reason I renounce the "Christian" picture of God is not because I have any desire to renounce Jesus, but because from my perspective Christianity as it uses Jesus to support ancient dogma to be the "Word and Commandments of an ancient God" is actually the antithesis of Jesus, IMHO.

Christianity has become the antithesis of the message that Jesus actually tried to convey.

You don't need to renounce Jesus in order to renounce Christianity.

I most certainly don't!

On the contrary from my point of view to continue to support Christianity as it stands is to actually renounce the true message that Jesus had to offer us.

~~~~

That's how I feel about it.

How do I view myself? A thread was started no long ago asking "Who are you?"

Where one possible way to describe who I am is to say that I'm a Christian who has saved Jesus from being nailed to the Old Testament.

I wasn't around when they nailed him to a pole to do anything about that. But at least today, I can indeed set Jesus FREE from having been nailed to the Old Testament.

And that's what I do.

I renounce the metaphorical nailing of Jesus to support the dogma of Christian Old Testament and the claims that Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham.

Jesus was the son of the LIVING GOD, just as WE ALL ARE.

And that's my message to humanity.

Drop the dogma and religious bigotry.

WAKE UP, for it is written, "I have said, ye are gods"

I have had two threads locked because I dared to suggest that if the true lineage of the Jewish people was seriously investigated the truth would be discovered about the story of Abraham which spawned countless different religions. I can't believe that I have been attacked and called anti-Semitic and ridiculed because I dared to utter the word Jew in this investigation.

How brainwashed are we that people are terrified of saying anything about the Jewish people and their true history and true lineage?

How dare I ask for evidence. How dare I suggest that the stories in the Bible are fiction. We have not advanced much in our ability to reason in this modern age.

Well I am calling it quits on the topic. People can believe whatever unsupported tale they want. I'm disgusted at the reaction I have gotten from supposedly rational thinking people, even so-called scientific minded ones accusing me of "Jew-bashing" and "paranoia" and "conspiracy theory nonsense," not to mention telling me that I am too ignorant or uneducated to "understand" their alleged "explanations" for things that don't pass the smell test. To hell with it. This is the matrix and most people are still asleep. They just are not ready to wake up. How dare I even suggest that they provide real evidence. How presumptuous of me to think they are brave enough to question their authority or there own belief systems and the origins of them. How dare I.

Have a blissful sleep!

Wake me up before you go-go...

Peter,

Has it ever dawned on you that maybe, just maybe, some of the authors of the Biblical fables just actually happened to be intelligent people? Or people who had enough imagination to extrapolate ideas?

In fact, we see this sort of thing all the time in science.

Scientists are quite often imagining things in their minds LONG BEFORE there is any actual evidence for them.

In fact, human imagination is often what provides us with our deepest and greatest discoveries.

Albert Einstein imagined that time could be malleable LONG BEFORE it could even be proven to be true.

So should we worship Albert Einstein as a deity who knew the truth of reality before it could actually be "discovered"?

That's basically all you are suggesting here.

Most scientific discoveries are imagined in the mind of a human before they are proven to be the truth of reality. That's often what gives us the greatest breakthroughs.

Besides, I imagine if a person was so inclined they could go through folklore and mythologies from all over the world and make analogies between things that were said in those stories with various things that have since been discovered by science.

In fact, I would be utterly shocked if no such analogies could be made.

In fact, when modern physics discovered quantum mechanics the Eastern Mystics replied, "Well, we been saying that for eons".

Archaeological evidence of Biblical characters is what I am talking about. That is what I require.

I accept that some of the characters mentioned in the Bible were probably real. That does not mean that all of them were. So since you made this claim I would ask you: What characters have been verified, when, by whom, and where is the information on this.

It is the lineage of Abraham and Abraham himself I am particularly interested in. Moses, Jesus, Marry, Joseph, etc.

Shame on you for seeking truth.

How dare you question the status quo.

Bad bad girl.

Go to you room right now!

And don't come back out until you are prepared to support the LIES!

Jeanniebean, you have made it quite clear on these threads that you would most likely dismiss any evidence I'd provide.

With that said, I must defer you to Google or Yahoo!. It's only believable if you come to the conclusion on your own...

If you have or know of valid Archaeological evidence, which you mentioned, which I could examine and verify and evaluate, then I can consider your claim.

The point is not that I might dismiss it, but if you don't offer it, then I must dismiss your claim without consideration.

I wouldn't be impressed by archeological evidence that some of the characters in the biblical stories were real people. Or even all of them.

I accept that these stories were written by men, and I expect that their writings were indeed inspired by events and people who actually lived.

That doesn't give their outrageous supernatural claims of divine intervention one iota of support.

I imagine that some guy probably did live, teach against the immorality of the Torah, accuse the Pharisees of the time of being hypocrites, and was unjustly crucified for his views.

And I imagine he probably did have a mother and a father.

That doesn't mean that his mother was a virgin when he was born!

It also doesn't mean that he rose from the dead after being crucified.

There would also be no reason to believe that this man ever walked on water or turned water into wine. Although I'm sure that there were magi in those days who could perform such tricks. At least well enough to convince a gullible audience.

So even if there were clear archeological evidence that such people ever lived that doesn't mean that I should then suddenly accept that every single outrageous rumor of divine intervention and supernatural events that was ever written about them is TRUE.

Archeological evidence like that is totally meaningless when it comes to supporting outrageous supernatural claims.

In fact, you're actually feeding the rumors by suggesting that such evidence might actually loan them some credence.

These stories were written by men, about the times in which they lived. I imagine that many of the characters, places, and events that they wrote about had at least some reality in their day.

But that doesn't mean that their outrageous claims of supernatural interventions holds any water.

Why even bother talking about that? It's totally irrelevant.

That would just give anyone who believes that they have reasons to believe that such people actually existed support that this should be considered as "evidence" for the supernatural claims being made in these stories.

It's NOT evidence to support the supernatural claims at all.

That's baloney!

That would be misguided thinking right there.

Which I know you will do anyways...


Do your own legwork...