if there were a "racist" forum here, and such can be found easily on the internet, i'd be all over it and i can hardly be called a racist. this, as all forums on this particular web site, is an OPEN FORUM where people are encouraged to express their views, ideas and opinions. those veiws and ideas and opinions may or may not sit with you very well personally and you've the freedom to move on to where you might find people who see everything about religion precisely as you do. but you're way out of line suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you should not be here.

i'm agnostic so i'm not religious either obviously but as i do with racism, i see that religion does more harm than good for humanity so when i see a forum like this i take the time to express my views. will i change the plight of humans by doing so??? of course not. no more than you will save anybody's soul here. but as you're hear to express your views on god, the afterlife and other supernatural phenomena, so am i and everybody who participates in this OPEN FORUM.

Who knows... maybe there is evidence of Cleopatra...
But Cleopatra and her story could very easily have been just a play or fiction also...

Cleopatra Bust Among Treasures Found in Egypt Temple
Mati Milstein
for National Geographic News
May 30, 2008

An alabaster bust of Cleopatra and a mask that might have belonged to her lover Marc Antony are part of a slew of treasures found north of Alexandria, Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities announced on Monday.

The artifacts were discovered inside the Taposiris Magna, a large temple in what is now Abusir that was built during the reign of Ptolemy II, which lasted from 282 to 246 B.C.


A bronze statue of the Greek goddess Aphrodite (top left), an alabaster bust of Cleopatra (top right), and coins stamped with the ancient Egyptian queen's face (bottom) are among the treasures found during a dig at Taposiris Magna temple north of Alexandria, officials announced on May 27, 2008.

The slew of new finds also includes a mask that might have belonged to Cleopatra's lover Marc Antony, experts say.



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080530-antony-cleopatra.html

Cleopatra was the last ruler during Egypt's Greco-Roman Period, in which a Greek royal family governed from 323 to 30 B.C. She was arguably one of the most powerful and influential women in the ancient world.

In 48 B.C. she seduced Roman emperor Julius Caesar and bore him a son.

Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ. what was jesus' real name??? i think they both probably existed but as cleo had no virgin mother i doubt jesus did either.

well, jeanie, my reply was to creative's question, not yours. i've not a clue what your requirements are as i've not read that particular post. having said that, the ONLY evidece i consider constitutes VALID evidence in matters of the universe, how it works, how humans evolved, how it all came to be is evidence that measures up to the scientific method. truth is subjective to one's personal position on any topic. to a democrat the truth is that republicans are out to destroy america. to a republican the exact oposite happens to be true.

Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ

عيسى‎

Don't you love the internet? I do. If you type in any name you can get the basics on what people have found or what writers believe to be true. But with any one in history (if you go back far enough) there is always a cloud of smoke that can be created if you really want to.

Was your question was Jesus of Joseph really a living person?

It was not my intention to try and seem superior or look down my nose at anyone. I was trying to answer questions or maybe explain what I believe.

I still hold to the statement that unless you are immersed in something, you can't truly understand it.

I know what works for me and I try to be an example for others of love and kindness by the way I live my life, as I believe G-d would want me to do.

I hope you all find the answers you are searching for.

indeed, but that does not necessarily mean that by immersing yourself in something you will truly understand it. i immersed myself in christianity for sixteen years and never did understand it. of late i've immersed myself in theoretical physics and have trouble understanding it but it makes far more sense to me than the religious dogma i was fed growing up. still, i hear often a christian saying they don't understand how the big bang could have created the universe, that there must be a designer, that something cannot be created from nothing. perhaps if he/she would put down the bible and immerse themselves in the study of astrophysics the theory just might be easier for them to understand.

technically all 3 abrahamic religions and their All Star Players have nothing to show for their existence

Islam,theres no solid evidence Mohammed existed
Hebrew,theres no solid evidence King David or Moses existed
Christian,theres no solid evidence Jesus existed

Even the Hall of Famers,Abraham and God theres no solid evidence they existed or exist(god).

I just wish people would have followed Democritus instead,atleast he did exist.

That is my impression. I'll get back to you on that belief.




I guess you can draw any conclusions you want. I would explain why I draw that conclusion, but its not the subject of this thread. I will get back to that also.



Unsustainable? Why would it be unsustainable?
People rose up against the evil greedy empire. Good people hated Rome. (Common sense) Rome was brutal and cruel.

Yes, I believe in cause and effect. What goes around comes around. Chip chip chip and the empire falls.




What "better evidence to the contrary" do you really have?


I hold my own belief to a very high standard. I question all information.

I ask for valid evidence for King David and Abraham. That is the first step.



Fiction, particularly historical fiction, if at all 'believable' is always mixed with facts and based on real places and some real people. Insert pure fiction.



I have told you the very same thing many times. Its nice to be on the other side of the argument.



I will get back to the council later. I always look for motive and agenda when I look at evidence.

Thank you. This is what I am pointing out.

Jeanniebean said:

"It is not hypocritical at all as the nature of my 'investigation' is King David and Abraham which happens to effect all of the Abrahamic religions of the world."

Creative said:
It is hypocritical for a speaker to ask someone else for evidence to support their belief(s) that they, the speaker, do not have for holding their own belief(s). That is the epitome of hypocrisy.

***************

#1. You do not know the whole of what my beliefs are, as they are constantly changing according to evidence and information I assimilate and evaluate.

#2. I do not preach my beliefs to others as the gospel truth, nor have any religions been founded or invented by anyone with any doctrines I have written or imposed upon society.

There is absolutely no "hypocrisy" involved in my asking for valid evidence of the existence of King David and Abraham. Anything at all is better than the nothing I am getting.

King David is the King of the house of cards. The cards themselves that you propose to suggest as "evidence" is not valid evidence for King David's existence.

Creative said:

It seems to me, and I'll wager that I'm not alone here, that the "nature" of your 'investigation' is to confirm that which you already hold true. This is supported by the fact that you're not considering the evidence that is being presented to you.


********

Seeing as how I have my own 'evidence' that convinces me that King David and company are fictitious, in order to find a sensible "consistency" (as you call it) to my personal over-all belief system it became necessary for me to dismiss the Biblical depiction of the history in the Bible as fiction, and to dismiss the person of King David and company also as fiction.

Without evidence to the contrary, I cannot possibly accept the story as historically true.

Yes, the house of cards has fallen. But I am willing to consider evidence of King David or Abraham when and if it is ever presented. I have my doubts if it ever will, but at least I have asked for it.

So you are calling me a "hypocrite" because I am not asking for the same kind of valid evidence for everyone else? Or for my own beliefs? Is that what you are doing?

If so, the answer to that is, I do and I am. But one thing at a time. Also, if I have the time, eventually I might get around to other important historical figures in solving certain questions and mysteries about historical truth.

I can't do it all at once. One thing at a time. Chip chip chip chip..... and the aftermath of Rome and its house of cards will eventually, maybe, come down.

But only if they stop killing the people who question it.

Your requirements have been met many times over Jb.(empirical fact) Go look(suggestion). One would need to be able to recognize that which is valid prior to recognizing valid evidence(necessary and sufficient conditions). I'm saying that even when given exactly what you've asked for you do not accept it, but instead raise the criterion to well beyond what your own beliefs can attain(empirical fact). However, you will accept less than valid reasoning to the contrary(empirical fact). You've even gone as far as to express these invalid conclusions, and ignore it when it is being pointed out, only to continue expressing them as though they're valid conclusions(empirical fact).



It was given. I spent a little time explicitly setting out the common sense reasons why Jesus' life and/or crucifiction was not well documented outside of Biblical texts(empirical fact). He did not stand out that much(logical deduction based upon historical facts). The Romans crucified people all the time(historical fact). Not all of the them were not recorded(common sense). Everyone does not make history in that way(common sense).



A cracked vessel cannot hold water.

Jesus' life was not well recorded. It does not follow that Jesus did not exist.

Alright, let me put this simply...

1. King David is pure fiction.
2. Abraham is pure fiction.
C. Jesus is pure fiction.

The above is the argument that you're putting forth with the house of cards. It is not valid. Do you understand?

I am not asking for 'evidence' that the person "Jesus" existed.
My first and primary request is valid evidence for King David.

He was a KING right? There should be evidence don't you think?

(The reasoning you presented is not valid evidence for Jesus anyway.)

1. King David existed.
2. Abraham existed.
3. Jesus existed.

This claim is not valid and not supported by evidence.

Do you understand that?

It is NOT me making the claim that these people existed.

It is NOT for me to prove they did not exist.

The burden of proof is not on me. I am not making the claim.

They MAY have existed. I don't know.
I am asking for valid evidence.

Until then I have to conclude they did not exist. This is for my believe system to move forward. I am simply asking other people to ask for evidence the same as I am asking for it.

Do you understand that this...

1. King David is fiction.
2. Abraham is fiction.
C. Jesus is fiction.

...is the form of the argument that you're presenting.

You're seeking evidence for the existence of Abraham and for the existence of King David. You're claiming that if the evidence does not satisfy some, yet to have been clearly set out, epistemic criterion then we must conclude that Christianity is pure fiction.

I'm telling you that that is invalid. It is fallacious.

Even if 1 and 2 are true, it does not follow that Jesus is fictitious. If Jesus is not fictitious, then Christianity does not fall. Christianity does not stand or fall based upon whether or not King David and/or Abraham is fiction.

Do you understand that I am not arguing for nor against Abraham's existence, nor for or against King David's? I'm showing you that Jesus's existence is neither proven nor disproven by either.

will there ever be 'proof' that cant be said to be created by men as part of a 'lie' ?


anyhow, I found some interesting things about the 'tel dan inscription',,

I think the evidence will mount slowly as to the veracity of the bible,,,then what will people do,,,,lol


(just poking fun that the question can be posed on either side of the debate)



who was it that said

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,,,?

just a word to the wise, I do go in those 'racist' forums and everyone gets labeled on one side or the other if they voice opinions long enough,,,,lol

as in, no different than here? lol.