here is the rub

semantically, historically, whatever you want to call it, christian comes from the root word CHRIST

whatever christians are or are not, what they have in common is the significance of CHRIST in their life

commonly, a christian follows the teachings of christ, which(having not heard person to person) they learn about through studying a bible or other biblically historical book


the translations and lessons people take from the life and words of Christ though vary individually as perceptions often do

msharmony,

The problem I have with that is that the term "Christ" has a different meaning to me than "Jesus." Christ was a term used even before Jesus. It is a term used to describe a state of enlightenment or God consciousness.

When the Roman Empire decided to make their chosen God human and call it the Christ, they basically stole that term and took ownership of it for their own use in their religion. But there are still some people who understand the term and do not equate it to equal the character of "Jesus" but to mean "God (or Christ) consciousness."

But what would the Bible have to do with being a "Christian" if "Christians" don't need to believe what's in the Bible?

Its statements like that that prove that you have no sense of humor.

I stand corrected, however, I stand in my belief that MOST christians place the lessons of JESUS CHRIST as central to their lives

about as much as medical books have to do with being a doctor, although there have been many who understood and discovered how to heal without reading such books,,

There are at least four Christians conversing on this forum and each of them are radically different in what they are saying. Cowboy says things I have never heard in my life, and that make no sense at all and he is always contradicting himself. Peterpan69 has some very different ideas about the Bible that I'm sure a fundamentalist would go ape over and Freakyshiki reminds me of a Baptist born and bred by the cloth who knows no other reality. Miles seems like he is from another planet compared to your average Christian.

Sorry, but I am very confused talking to all these different faiths that claim to be Christian.

Well, when I read the teachings of Christ I learn nothing new. All I do is shake my head in agreement with all of the moral and behavioral things that he taught. So what's to learn?

In fact, I would feel very sorry for someone who actually had to learn from the teachings of Jesus. They would have been in a very poor way prior to that obviously.

One thing too, as you point out, different people take different lessons from these very same teachings. For example, there do exist people like Hitler, who can indeed look at these stories and decide that they are instructing him that it's not only ok to murder non-believers, but it's even God's instructions that we are supposed to do this.

A person with "High moral values" could argue that Hitler was wrong and clearly was nothing thinking very "morally" when he came to his conclusions.

However, therein lies the rub,...

If a person already needs to be a "Highly moral person" in order to come away from the Bible with GOOD moral values, then the book itself isn't instilling good moral values in anyone. The actual moral values come from the reader, not from the book.

I could use the book to totally justify Hitler if I wanted to. The book actually ALLOWS for that interpretation.

The only way I can use the book to renounce Hitler's use of it is to assert that my very own moral values that I place onto the book should be accepted over any other interpretations.

But again, where are those moral values coming from? The book? Or the individual readers?

Clearly it's the latter, and not the former.

You can use the Bible to support just about anything you want.

Well, you're not alone by far.

The Abrahamic religions in general have been disagreeing with each other for millennia.

Neither Judaism, nor Islam agree with the Christian versions of the fundamental religion.

The Christians are also highly divided. The Catholics have their thing going, and the Protestants protested against that.

Then the Protestants continued to protest against each others views and there now exists literally thousands of Protestant denominations that are all in disagreement with each other on major ideas, from sects like the Amish and Shakers who basically rejected the use of technology (or at least try to), to the Baptists, Adventists, Mormons,... you name it,.... the list of opposing Christan denominations is quite large. And it's growing all the time.

So Christians don't even agree with each other, and never have.

So it's no wonder they are confusing Jeannie. They don't even agree with each other.

yes the bible is a supporting resource for what we should already know but life can destroy

I would hope you not allow it to confuse you too much. There are many things Christians will agree on, like the ten commandments, because they are clearer than others. But its a big book with alot of lessons that billions (or even just four or five) of different individuals arent going to interpret wholly in the same manner.

But the problem is that the Bible can be used to support negative things too, like religious bigotry.

So it's only as "good" as the person who's attempting to use it to support his or her ideal. (for better or worse)

a book that big, billions of individual minds with individual experiences forming their independent perceptions,,,,,is gonna have that risk,,,



science has the same problem, people using correlations to assume causation,,,

Well since I'm not Christian and don't intend to be, the main problem is that when someone tells me they are Christian I really, truly don't know what that means...at least where the details are concerned anyway. All it has come to mean to me is that Jesus Christ is in the mix somewhere and that they are probably wanting to size me up in their own minds so they can figure out how to convince me to get "saved" from my "sinful ways."

So in person, I usually just listen to them politely and say hello, have a nice day etc. If they show too much interest in me or what I believe I make myself scarce.

It is nice to be able to talk to people here to learn a bit about all the variations, but it serves to convince me to just keep my mouth shut when I meet an evangelist in person. They don't knock on my door anymore, I hang out a pentacle. It keeps them away.

thats interesting. I personally dont go around professing my religious faith or my sexual identity,,,lol

it just rarely seems an appropriate time and place. In fact, the times outside of this thread that it has come up, has been from the other person bringing it up to ME.

But in these threads it does seem like THE TOPIC to discuss. Christian is a term, as I said, that unites those who have a faith in the lessons of Jesus Christ. Just as American unites those who are either born in america or living the 'american' dream.

Neither label is really meant to give us deep insight into the INDIVIDUAL , just a core and basic idea of what is at their foundation,,,,whether it be a love for their COUNTRY or its IDeals or a love for Christ and his lessons.

My point is, why even bother using a book to try to "support" your moral views? Why not just stand up for your moral views on your own?



Science typically has very little to do with making moral decisions.

I'm personally not one who pits science versus religion. I see no reason to do this. Usually when those kinds of topics come up it's because a religious person is requiring that science be 'wrong' in order to support their religion.

That's the only time I see any "conflict" between religion and science.

But for me, I do not see science as an "alternative" for religion.

When making moral choices we don't need either. Just argue what you feel is the best moral choice for a given situation and why bother trying to bring in a "book" that is supposed to be the "word of God" to support your moral decision? Especially when that book can clearly be used by other people to potentially support an opposing moral position.

It seems like people are just trying to out-clout each other by appealing to an idea that "God" is in agreement with their morals choices over some other person's moral choices.

So i am guessing you beleive we came from nothing and that makes more sense to you? You are the one that beleives in fantasy God created everything even you I will pray for you!!!

But even the Ten Commandments aren't very clear.

One of the Ten Commandments states that we are to honor our mother and father.

But what if our mother and father aren't honorable people?

What if our father wants us to have sex with him at an early age?

What if our mother wants us to go out and prostitute ourselves and give her the money so she can buy a mink coat?

What are we supposed to do? Use common sense to override the Ten Commandments?

If so, then why don't the Ten Commandments just be reduced to one that says, "Thou shalt exercise and follow your common sense"

Clearly there are good reasons to ignore at least some of these Ten Commandments.

In the begining was the abyss...

and god moved upon the face of the abyss.

aye...

we came from nothing.

I prefere to abide by them as much as my imperfect self can. However Christians do not 'agree' on the Ten.

Some think there were 12.
Some claim 'thou shalt not'... Some 'thou mayest not'... Some 'thou should not'...

Some say 'kill'... others say 'murder'...

not only that but the simple term 'covet' has many interpretations when 'discussion' turns to the commmandments.

So no, Christians do not 'agree' on the ten commandments.

They argue over them as much as other sections and 'interpretation' of the bible.