Common sense.

Even if you 'think' you were called, you still have to 'decide' to go.

Its called..... FREE WILL.

christians

imho, we do not know what ALL atheists or nonbelievers feel or where they will go when they die


and likewise

imho, atheists and nonbelievers do not know what all christians feel or where they will go when they die and certainly not what they all do

some are called, some go on their own


just like my favorite concert, I may go because I want to, without any additional coercion or I may have not been thinking about the concert until my friend starts talking about it and
INVITES me to go(but I still have the final decision to accept or not)

There's the problem Cowboy!

Are we to assume from this that before you accepted Jesus into your heart you were participating in adultry sex, drugs, drinking to huge excess, and much more sinful disgusting things?

You see, I've never done any of those things. Well, I did smoke marijuana in the 60's and 70's. But I also decided to stop doing that on my own. And it wasn't even a moral decision, I just got to the point where I wasn't enjoying it anymore. Also it was never a problem. It could have potentially been a legal problem had I ever gotten into trouble with the law over it, but fortunately that never happened.

So I simply don't have the disgusting behaviors that you suggest.

Therefore there's nothing to be "saved" from.

I've told this countless time. Even if I were going to believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior, I would not need to change my lifestyle or behavior one iota.

So if Jesus "came into my heart" today, nothing would change.

You seem to be under some sort of truly misguided notion that if a person hasn't accepted Jesus as their savior they must necessarily be indulging in all sorts of nasty disgusting behaviors.

Nothing could be further from the truth. There are tons of examples of people who live extremely productive and constructive lives who do not believe in the Bible or Jesus.

You make it sound like if a person doesn't believe in Jesus they must be behaving like in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

That, my friend, is totally unrealistic and simply isn't true.

The things I mentioned are a generality, may not apply to you. I know you are great Abra, you've told us many times before and I salute you for your greatness. Not all people are totally evil, not all people are totally a saint. People also become more humble when they accept Jesus. They see it doesn't matter if another won't believe, if another does something evil, or if another does anything or other. What another does, can not and will not effect one's salvation and or relationship with God. It doesn't all boil down to what one does. If one gives their spouse an gift with the faith that this will get them something in return, is that gift they gave their spouse a gift our of love? Works alone can not save a person, faith alone can not save a person. Takes both.

Exactly.

I must have been born with "Jesus" in my heart.

These hardcore fundamentalist Christian extremists are doing nothing more than using their religion as an excuse to accuse anyone who refuses to support their personal interpretations of their dogma of rejecting God.

It has absolutely nothing at all to do with any God.

All it has to do with is religious dogma and personal interpretations of that dogma.

In fact, Protestantism is the greatest "train-wreck" of all.

Protestantism started out by rebelling against the Catholic notion that a single human Pope should interpret the scriptures for everyone. The idea was that the Protestants wanted to reserve the right that every individual should interpret the scriptures for themselves.

So what did this rebellion ultimately evolve to become?

Well, now we have self-appointed "Paper Popes" demanding that only their interpretations of the scriptures must be accepted by everyone.

The whole thing just came full-circle.

I guess mortal men are so weak in their egos that they just can't resist the urge to claim to be the ultimate spokesperson for God.

Agreed :) glad you see things my way.

Some people are naturally good and decent. They act with love and respect and decency. Truthfully, they have no need for religion.

Some of the loudest Christians who preach reformism and "being saved" were they themselves saved from a pathetic life of crime and indecency.

Murderers, rapists, prostitutes and even serial killers profess to have "found Christ" and been saved. Their lives are changed, they are 'new people.'

In the Tarot, the journey of the fool is the major arcana. This moment of "being saved" is depicted by the card: Judgement.

Judgement is when the person reviews his life and takes a new path.



They change their lives.

I say good for them if they are being honest. I think what may have happened to them is that they truly realized the error of their ways or something happened to them that made them realize or feel love and compassion and their eyes were opened to "right and wrong."

Others, are just spewing lies so they can fit into society or con their prison parole board.

In this picture, which is actually from a painting called "The crossroads" there is a warrior who thinks about his life and his death and reexamines the life he has lived.

Shall he continue until death and die by the sword doing evil, or shall he take another road of compassion.

This is "being saved."

This is judgement. It is when we judge ourselves.

absolutely

noone NEEDS 'religion'
anymore than we NEED 'school buildings'


religion is a means of congregating for a common goal, it helps
but one can reach goals by other means


school buildings are a way to educate children with common lessons, they help

but there are other types of education

religion is a valuable resource, it is not a need, but it is valuable enough to not be discarded

Being "saved" isn't being saved from your life. Yes that terminology isn't in the bible. The term being "saved" is from accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior and having your sins taken away. Sins don't stop with you, they continue on to the next generation and the next, till they are forgiven. Even if one is a total saint their entire life but have no accept Jesus they carry the sins of Adam and Eve, the original sin if you will. Jesus offers forgiveness of that and all the sins YOU committed.

You just don't get it do you?

Being saved is from accepting LOVE into your heart. Not some character or fable called "Jesus."

Sins do not continue to the next generation. Why would they?

Sin, according to dogma of the Bible is simply to disobey. Most people including you don't understand any of that. You don't understand what it represents.

If you take love into your heart then you KNOW what is right. You don't need commandments or rules or punishment. You follow the law of love.

Forgiveness only comes when you learn to love and forgive yourself for your past mistakes.

But people have been so conditioned to thinking they need a lord and master and a father to forgive them, they don't understand the concept of forgiving themselves and changing their lives. They are immature children who have not taken the responsibility for themselves and they need a father to forgive them and tell them that everything will be fine, they will be taken care of in heaven.

In order to grow up you have to accept responsibly for your own sins and stop letting someone else pay for your sins.

Would you honestly let your brother die or hang for a crime you committed? If not, then why sacrifice Love (Jesus) on the cross to pay for your sins? If you would, then you are a coward.

Sorry, I say grow up Christians.

Pay for your own sins by taking responsibility.

If you did something your friend or family member told you not to do, would you go to them for forgiveness if and when you truly ment it to receive forgiveness from them? Or would you only seek forgiveness of your trespass from yourself?

Telling someone you are sorry for something you did does not guarantee forgiveness. They are just words.

If you are truly sorry, and in some way you learned your lesson and it has changed you ... you, from that day forward, are new person. You will never do that again. Then you have changed and you must forgive yourself.

That is being saved, and being born again because you are a new person.

Your family may never forgive you. It does not matter. You have changed.

"Greatness"?

From your perspective perhaps. But certainly not from mine.

I'm not fighting off temptations. I'm just doing what innately comes to me naturally. There's no "work" involved in being who I am.

I'm making no effort to "obey" someone Else's concept of purity.

So there's no work or effort being exerted on my part.

You're still being forced to go one way, with no wiggle room, so yeah the analogy works just fine. You just can't see it cause of your bias to want to prove your beliefs right.

Truly, Cowboy is speaking of 'sin' as though it is some sort of substance that needs to be 'washed away'.

Also, who could sins be passed on to the next generation? What if a person decides not to procreate? What would happen to their 'sins' after they die? There wouldn't be anyone to pass them onto.

There is an interesting thought here though. From a very early age I decided that I did not want to be involved in procreation. I refused to bring life into this world because I personally don't see this world as being suitable for decent life.

Truly, that's my view, it was my view back then, and it still is today.

I would have loved to have been a parent though to say, adopted children. But that never came to pass either.

In any case, if 'sin' is passed on to the next generation, then perhaps I was born without sin and I have no no sin and this is why I innately feel a need to terminate my genetic line. We've come to the end, there is no more 'sin' to pass forward.

I'll buy that one!

It's funny how you can take these ancient myths and pour even more superstition into them. But then they are all based on superstitions to begin with so I guess this is why superstitions are so compatible with them.

If someone tells you to go left and you do out of just being loving and obedient to their wishes, you were "forced" to go that way? I'm afraid not. We aren't "forced" to love God and obey his commands. We do it out of love for our father.

Well, I don't necessarily approve of this, but yes, I agree that you do it.

But that's not the theme you're trying to sell people.

You're trying to sell them on the idea that if they instead choose to turn right, then the person who told them to turn left will beat the hell out of them for all of eternity.

You're attempting to sell us a picture of a truly sadistic demon.

Not a supposedly loving all-righteous God.

Your religion is nothing more than a fear tactic to try to get people to climb aboard your religious bigotry wagon in the name of a supposed "god".

But in order for you to make that work you must make your God out to be a demon.

In fact, the only thing we need to be "saved" from is the very threats of your demonic God!

Let me tell you guys a story. Some of the worst feelings I have ever had in my life, feelings of guilt, shame, and fear, came during my time as Catholic and later just Christian.

Why? For YEARS I felt this immense pressure to uphold to sexual standards I simply couldn't handle. At a young age, under 10, I was exposed to things that woke up that sexual side of me. This is something I realize now I had no control over, and was not my fault.

But in the past, quite frankly I HATED myself. I blamed myself for allowing these thoughts to go into my head. I felt I had no choice but to stop what I was doing and never do it again, lest I end up in hell burning forever if I didn't. But no matter how hard I tried, I simply couldn't take the pressure and I'd slip back. And each time I did, the guilt would hit immediately. I felt stupid, foolish, however you wanna call it I felt this on an almost daily basis. I felt certain I was gonna be damned, and I couldn't do anything to stop it it seemed like.

It was only when I actually left the controlling belief system that is Christianity, that this has changed. I saw and understood that I am ok, that these sexual desires and feelings are NORMAL. I realized that they are nothing to be ashamed of.

Now, could it be better used in certain ways and places than others? Certainly, it was designed that way. BUT.....God is not gonna damn me or anyone else if I use it in other ways. Just knowing that, is incredibly freeing. It's a huge weight off of my shoulders. All the feelings of guilt and shame I once had is all gone. I can't even begin to tell you the difference that has made for me. You have to really experience it to understand it.

Before, I was trying to change because I thought I had to. Even when every other part of me fought it, I felt I had to so I tried. This was the wrong way to go about it, because I was still actively thinking about it. I wasn't making the choice to better myself for me, it wasn't really geunine. I was trying to change out of fear, not cause I truly wanted to. Hence why I failed no matter how hard I tried.

Now, it's different. I am free to make changes cause I WANT to, not because I have to. If you can't see how the two are different, I dare say you aren't looking hard enough.

To be free.....is an amazing feeling, it really is. As much as I struggle in some other areas of my life, when it comes to this, I'm ok with myself now. Is everything I do the best for me? Probably not, but....no God in the sky is holding a proverbial gun to my head to change or not to. And knowing that....I don't have to hate myself anymore, I don't have to feel bad for every thought I have, or fear judgment for having it and reacting to it. That's a good feeling, to have such freedom.