Must we forget that everything you've said here comes from highly unreliable hearsay rumors, gossip and fables?

Also, there you go again comparing God with inept human parents. Human parents aren't omniscient and omnipotent.

Besides I have already shown that the Hebrews themselves lied about the Canaanites and Egyptians when they claimed that those cultures refused to worship and obey God. That's clearly a lie since those cultures were indeed worshiping and attempting to obey God. In fact the Canaanites were apparently so sincere and devoted to God that they were even sacrificing their own babies in an attempt to please God.

The fables that you continually refer to as the "Word of God" have no merit or credibility. They are clearly just the accusations of one human culture toward other human cultures.

Besides I have already shown that just because one worships something as it were a god doesn't mean they are worshiping our one and only god. Just because you put faith in your cat as being god, doesn't make it so.

The Canaanites and Egyptians were only worshiping what they thought to be god(s). They were not worshiping our father in heaven the only true God. For if they were, they would have been doing it in the manner God has told us to do it.

That's totally irrelevant.

If the Canaanites and Egyptians were trying to worship the creator of the universe, and IF the Biblical God is the Creator of the universe, then the Canaanites and Egyptians cannot be said to have refused to worship God.

The only possibility left would be confusion!

The Canaanites and Egyptians could only have been confused about how to go about properly worshiping their creator.

But the only entity that has the power and ability to clear up that confusion is the Creator. Because only the creator has the ability to clear that up. So if he failed to do so, that would be his own failings.

You simply can't have people worshiping "False Gods" and simultaneously claim that they are refusing to worship the creator of the universe.

The only way that they could refuse to worship the creator of the universe would be to do just that. They would need to have no religion, and neither could they be atheists.

They would have needed to recognize the biblical God as the creator of the universe and openly and blatantly refuses to worship and obey him.

But they weren't doing that!

They were clearly attempting to worship the creator of the universe.

So the fables are false. These fables can only be the writings of mortal men who were making false accusations about other cultures.

We caught the Hebrews dead-to-rights in their lies.

If God talks to me I will believe in God, until then Buddha is a far more probably choice.

It's totally relevant. If you are going to build a house, do you not look and see the proper way to build the house? If you want to make a meal, do you not see the proper way to make a certain dish? It is not God's fault or responsibility, it is ours. If we wish to worship the correct way, the way God wishes to be worshiped we have to search for the knowledge to do as such.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Jer_29:13,


1, "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2, That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3, Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7, But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8, But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10, But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11, Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13, Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14, Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15, And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16, As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17, Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18, But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."
2Peter 3:1-18

So? What does that have to do with anything?

It's your claim that the Hebrew fables should be preferred as the "True Word of God"!

That your assumption.

You act like everyone else should just accept that as a given, but it's not a given!

The Canaanites and Egyptians had no reason to believe in Hebrew fables any more than the Hebrews any reason to believe that the Canaanites or Egyptians got it right.

You totally assuming the people should be able to clearly see that the Hebrew folklore is true and all other religious myths are clearly false. But there's absolutely no reason to make any such assumption.

In fact, for modern people today we can look back on those fables with hindsight and see precisely what I'm showing you! The Hebrews were accusing the Canaanites and Egyptians of knowingly rejecting to worship the creator of the universe when in fact both of those cultures were indeed trying to do precisely that very thing in the way they had been taught to believe was correct.

Surely you don't think the Canaanites were sacrificing their children to gods that they knew were totally false and devoid of any truth?

You don't sacrifice your babies to something unless you're convinced that it's real!

We've been through this before and you are just in denial of the problem. You keep using "false analogies" that don't even make sense.

Your first response was to make an analogy of a human child worshiping the Wrong Person as their Parent. But I pointed out to you that there are no 'false gods' to worship and therefore that analogy fails.

As soon as you realized the error in that analogy you came back with another one where you have the child worshiping an inanimate 'box' instead of the parent, and asked why the parent should be pleased with that child.

Well, first off, if you child was treating an inanimate 'box' like as if it is their parent you've got a seriously mentally ill child on your hands. Or, at best, one that is extremely stupid.

If you saw your child treating a box like as if it's their parent you'd probably go over and kick the box aside and say to the child, "No hon, that's just a box. Look at me I'm a real person, you need to pay attention to me, not an inanimate box".

If the child is incapable of comprehending what you are saying then, like I say, either the child is hopeless mentally ill, or seriously mentally retarded. And you can't blame mentally ill and retarded people for being that way especially if you are the one who created them!. You should heal them of their mental illness or retardation first, before you expect them to converse with you intelligently. (and an all-powerful God could certainly do that if he's worth his salt as a God)

Now once you have the child's intelligent attention you can communicated with the child. Make sure the child understand that you are the parent and there is no other. Either the child needs to love and obey you, or reject you and your authority. Those are the only sane intelligent choices available.

You simply can't have a child worshiping a box thinking the box is their parent and "blame them" for blatantly and knowingly rejecting their parent. If they had done that with full awareness of their choice then wouldn't then be trying to worship a box.

So this idea that these cultures somehow knowingly rejected the creator of the universe just because they didn't bow down and worship the Hebrews as the "Voice of God" is nonsense.

And the same holds true today. Refusal to believe in the Christian religion cannot in any way be taken as a rejection of any God. It's a rejection of a religious myth, no different from rejecting Greek mythology.

What did I say about religion? If you love your father, you obey his rules. When you do break his rules, you are truly sorry for doing so. Not because you fear punishment, but because of your love and respect for him. It's as simple as that.

Irelevant... If you are accostomed to building mud huts and you decide to build a house... You would build it according to what you knew... If all you knew about the 'house of god' was the 'mud bricks' of past accomplishment then your 'house of god' would not be the same as that constructed by someone that had 'abramhic arcitecture'...

However since you built it to 'god' would he care what construction techniquie you used?

Shall we apply some modern knowledge to these statements...

"10, But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
Aye... either (according to science) the earth's orbit will one day decay into the sun and perish with all that is upon it. Or the sun will swell as it ages and swallow the earth in fire and great noise.. with the same result.

So... Knowing this to be a truth indeed (gods days being greater than ours) as our science tells us that YES on day the earth will 'melt away'...

"11, Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

Well yep... In all holy conversation and godliness... what manner of persons ought we to be... One who sits wringing our hands and spitting falseness at one another till the earth ends... Or one who strives to lift up all of mankind unto another place... I darn sure do not want my decendants anywhere on the earth when its fate befalls it.

and lo the writers of your book say the same thing...

to whit...

"12, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" (looking to the end by sitting wringing ones hands in anguish and spitting out falsness one to the other till the end come while you debate the essense of god..)

or...

as the writers of your book say...

"13, Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." (finding a place for our decendants to live that would be righteous for them to live upon... which science tells us exist and that we have the time to figure out how to get there... as science also tells us that the 'ending' of the earth is yet a time and times further up the road).

You see the words in this book can be shown to be timless... If one applies the knowledge of man as-it-is-now... and stop applying the limited knowledge of you ancestors...

for the times have changed yet within the ancient words can still be found truth to match what we have learned.

So then one can choose to 'follow in the footsteps off Jesus' and LIFT UP mankind...

Or one can follow the footsteps of Pilat and wring your hands and argue one with the other... till the earth be swallowed by the sun and all chance for those upon it be lost forever.

And if you did not know how to build a house, would you read up on it to learn? And or ask someone for their advice which more then likely would come from reading it out of a book? The house analogy wasn't imply "House of God" or anything along those lines. Was merely an example of having to have instructions to do something properly if one did not know. Just as God has given us instructions on how to live properly for we are not born with this knowledge. Seek and ye shall find our father has told us. Seek the answers and ye shall find them.

I sought... Your problem is that the answers I found don't agree with those you cling to. so be it.

as far as the 'house of god' analogy... The ancient hebrew's did not share that book with the cannites (or any other tribe) knowledge of god was a closely guarded secret... so that their prophets would have advantage against the 'seers' of the kings of the time (which payed well for proper answers) this is documented in the same book you quote.

I know not of the word being hid from anyone. Mind you care to enlighten us on the scriptures?

Your assuming that the Hebrew religion has something to do with God.

How is that different from you assuming that it doesn't?

I don't assume. I know for a fact it is. I know it is with all my heart mind soul body and heart.

Exactly.

Well, clearly the Canaanites were seeking answers if they were sacrificing their very own babies to what they believed to be the Creator of the universe.

To even remotely suggest that they weren't seeking God would be utterly ludicrous. They were sacrificing their own children! They had to be pretty convinced that they already had the correct information about what God wanted from them.

You keep holding up the Hebrew religion like as if people should automatically assume that it's the correct fables to worship.

But you haven't established a reason why anyone should even remotely feel that way. I certainly don't!

And like I say, neither did people like Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and all the other great minds of humanity. They saw no reason to believe that the fables of the ancient Hebrews have anything to do with the creator of this universe either.

You don't "debate" whether or not the bible has merit. You simply assume that it does and expect everyone else to accept that same assumption.

I've shown a myriad of reasons why none of these fables hold up to rational questions about them.

There is absolutely no reason at all to belief that the Bible has anything more to do with God than any other religious creation fable.

In fact, as humans we really have no good reason to even believe in a god at all. The atheists have extremely GOOD POINTS.

So good that they even often have me thinking along those lines. Of course I will always remain agnostic until we can actually know truth because that's what agnostic means (without the certainty of knowledge)

No one can know whether or not a "God" even exists much less whether any particular religion or spiritual philosophy might best represent and such God.

As far as I'm concerned the biblical picture of God is obviously false. It can't be true because those stories totally violate the very characteristics that this God is supposed to even possess.

I've already proven that the biblical accusations about the Canaanites and Egyptians are necessarily false. So those accusations could not possibly have come from any supposedly all-wise all-knowing God, because if such an entity existed it would know that neither the Canaanites, nor the Egyptians could rationally be charged with willfully choosing to reject the creator of this universe.

So the Bible doesn't even make it into the running when it comes to asking how we might come to know a creator, assuming one even exists.

The Bible is clearly nothing more than the ramblings of mortal men.

I've recognized how the Hebrews themselves have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it can't be.

Thus I don't need to assume anything.

Your personally obsession to believe in these fables no matter how much evidence is presented against them is not impressive.

I show specifically why they can't be true.