Not so.

You sound a bit sour.

One should read them, digest them, read other writings...

Then put reason squarly in her seat and contemplate what you have learned.

However I, like Abbra, have a problem with the phrase...

Belive THIS way or DIE.

Sounds a bit like extremisism.

Muslims have them, christians have them...

No matter what religion you state... God is not extreme. To come at another human with an extreme places you FAR, FAR AWAY FROM GOD IS HE IS.

Exactly.

No sane intelligent creator of ALL MANKIND would be so lame as to only inspire a single culture to write down his wishes for mankind.

If there were any truth to the Biblical God, cultures from all around the globe would have had religious writings that reflected the very same concepts, ideas and so forth.

You can't have a creator of ALL MANKIND attempting to communicate with ALL MANKIND via just one tiny little culture. That would be extremely lame.

Thus further proof that it can only be a man-made religion.

Yes very true. That is why I do not judge you as the Muslims do. I will not kill you and or you family for not believing in our lord Jesus Christ. No extremists in Christianity. We are not to treat you any different then we would one of our brothers/sisters in Christ. Christianity and Muslim are absolutely nothing alike.

It's not about YOU cowboy.

It's about the religion!

The religion is judging non-believers in Jesus to be condemned by God.

When discussing the religion doctrine we're not concerned with what any supposedly "followers" think they are supposed to do. That's totally irrelevant. It's the religion that is faulty here.

At that point and time people weren't spread out across the world as we are now. And why is one book not enough? It has NOTHING to do with "religious" writings, or "religious' beliefs. The ONLY reason it's in the "religion" category is cause of people such as you that do not believe and or people that believe in false Gods. God didn't put those teachings, writings, and laws in a "religion". He gave it to the world, to ALL of us, not to the Christians, to all. It is you whom give us that title of being a Christian. We aren't a "Christian", we aren't anything different from you other then the fact that we have faith in our father.

LoL no they are NOT. The religion doesn't teach us to judge, to discriminate, or anything of such. Tells us quite the opposite. God has told us not to judge, not to kill, not to steal, ect. He didn't say don't steal from other believers, he didn't say don't kill other believers, he said DO NOT KILL.

Perhaps you do not... However I have two daughters that are aisian by their mother... I once took them camping and had to actually point a gun at a CHRISTIAN BIGOT (and all of his friends) that was informing me how he would treat her... 'kill' me because I muddied the race... and various other EXTREME things.

At a camp ground in AMERICA.

Don't tell me christians have no extremes.

What you say is not true. People were spread out around the world. Possibly not yet in what we now call the Americas, but certainly throughout Asia and North of the Mediterranean, and even in Africa.

We'd also need to believe that God failed to be able to communicate with the Canaanites and Egyptians, and that both of those cultures were totally unaware that God even tried to communicate with them since they clearly believe that God took on a different form, and had different expectations from them.

We truly have all the proof we need right before us that the Hebrew religion cannot be anything special. It's just another man-made religion.

Actually I believe it translates as THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER.

which is way different that do not kill.

You're not being truthful about the doctrine Cowboy.

The God in these myths did indeed make a commandment, "Thou shalt not kill", but then within these same fables this same God commanded and directed people to stone sinners to death, to kill heathen, their wives and even their children with no mercy!

So yes I'm afraid the Muslims have it right, the Biblical God of Abraham did indeed instruct them to kill infidels and heathens.

In fact, the New Testament has Jesus saying that Until Heaven and Earth pass, not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law.

Well, if the "jots and tittles were referring to the Old Testament" then even Jesus was confirming that we should still be killing infidels and heathens just as the Biblical God directed us to do.

"Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot nor one tittle shall in no wise pass from law, until all be fulfilled"

So according to this even Christians should still be killing infidels and heathens.

"For the preaching of the cross
is to them that perish foolishness;
but unto us which are saved
it is the power of God." 1Cor_1:18,


"For after that in the wisdom of God
the world by wisdom knew not God,
it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching
to save them that believe." 1Cor_1:21,


"But we preach Christ crucified,
unto the Jews a stumblingblock,
and unto the Greeks foolishness;" 1Cor_1:23,


"Because the foolishness of God
is wiser than men;
and the weakness of God
is stronger than men." 1Cor_1:25

Corinthians was written by Paul. So you've got four quotes written by a single person who's trying to sell his religion to people and convince the people who are already buying into his stories that everyone who doesn't buy into them is "foolish".

I'm supposed to be impressed by that?

The fact is that any God who would have directed people to kill heathens and blasphemers and then sent his very own son into that same mob to blaspheme himself can't possibly be a very wise God.

God would have no one to blame but himself for the crucifixion of Jesus because that entire crucifixion was incited on religious grounds based on the WORD of GOD in the original TORAH!

This is also an extremely contradictory situation when Jesus is trying to stop the mob from stoning the woman at the well. The mob is trying to carry out GOD's WORD. All they are doing in theory is trying to obey what the WORD OF GOD told them to do. Assuming that the Torah was indeed "God's Word".

So Jesus steps in and tells them that only he who is without sin should cast the first stone? Well duh? Who's idea was it to stone sinners to death in the first place?

Man's idea?

Well NO, not if you believe that the Bible is the WORD OF GOD. If you believe that the Bible is the WORD OF GOD, it was God's idea and instructions to do this thing!

So why is Jesus acting like the men are somehow acting strangely? They are only doing precisely what the Biblical God had instructed them to do. They are trying to OBEY GOD by caring out his instructions, commandments and directives.

But I'll bet that every Christian who reads that story views the mob that's preparing to stone the woman to death as being the "jerks" in this story.

Yet all they were doing is precisely what the GOD of the Old Testament had instructed them to do!

The truly ironic thing is this! If everyone who had been at that well would have been like me, then no one would be threatening to stone this woman to death in the FIRST PLACE! Everyone would already have rejected the Biblical God and refused to obey his stupid conflicting directives, of "Thou shalt not kill", except under all these special circumstances such as killing sinners, heathens, and so forth.

I would have called the Old Testament on the carpet already as being absurd and unlikely to have come from any sane God.

So if everyone were like me there wouldn't even be anyone there for Jesus to chastise. I would have already rejected those stupid myths.

The problem was coming from the common men! The problem was coming from the religion in the first place! They were only trying to do what the religion was telling them to do.

So the whole thing was stupid from square one, and here you are quoting Paul in an attempt to pretend that there is some sort of wisdom in this craziness.

In fact, if it wasn't for the religion it might have been impossible to incite a crowd to have Jesus himself crucified for "blaspheme". That was a religiously motivated thing right there! It was this very religion that got Jesus crucified in the first place.

If the religion had never existed perhaps people wouldn't have been taught that God wants them to kill heathens and blasphemers.

Can you not see the paradoxes in this religion? You call this wisdom? Where is there any wisdom in a God who instructs people to kill heathens and blasphemers (i.e. anyone who speaks out against the Torah or tries to put another God before the God of Abraham) and then sends his son into that very same culture to renounce the teachings of the Torah and claim that no one can get to God but through HIM!

That is precisely the type of behavior that is grounds for being killed as a heathen blasphemer. Precisely what the God in these fables had instructed men to do.

Anyone who took part in the crucifixion of Jesus under the belief that Jesus was committing blaspheme was only doing their best to OBEY this God's direct WORD in the Torah!

You call that a WISE God?

There are major contradictions in this religion that can in now way be easily resolved. And that's all the more reason why people should question that it has anything to do with any genuine God. It necessarily must be a false doctrine.

Yet you're willing to believe that a genuinely righteous God would condemn the people who draw this very sane and reasonable conclusion to spiritual death for not believing in these utterly absurd and contradicting stories?

I know that my rejection of these ancient myths in no way implies that I am "rejecting" a sane and righteous God.

On the contrary, the very reason that I reject these stories is because there is nothing sane or righteous about them.

So I'm going to be condemned to spiritual death simply because I refuse to believe in utterly absurd, crude, gory stories about a seemingly heartless God who can't even make up his mind whether he wants people to kill sinners and heathens or not?

~~~~~~~~~

And then to even further muddy the waters, these stories don't even make it anywhere near clear that God even wants any laws or directives changed.

Even these stories have Jesus saying things like he did not come to change the laws, and that until heaven and earth pass not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law?

What the hell are we supposed to make of that?

If he wanted to change the laws why not just come straight out and say so? What would be up with all these beating around the bush and making things extremely confusing and unclear?

You call that wisdom?

Since when would it be wise to try to communicate such important matters with such ambiguous scriptures that weren't even written by the hand of this supposed deity or "messenger"?

All we have is hearsay rumors written by highly questionable people long after this supposed deity had died. And even those rumors are filled with confusion with highly ambiguous things like not coming to change laws, and that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law, yet he's supposedly bringing us a whole new SET of Laws to follow?

No, these stories aren't anywhere near clear enough of intelligent enough to be the word of any "all-wise" God.

Something is horribly fishy here.

And then there's the obvious contradictions with the Canaanites and Egyptians who supposedly refused to worship and obey God yet both these cultures were indeed worshiping and trying to obey gods.

Something terribly wrong, and quoting more mumbo jumbo from these very same texts isn't going to cure its horrible inconsistencies.

Just because the authors of these texts claim that they are 'wise' doesn't make it so. You can SEE for yourself they that they are not wise. It doesn't take much effort to see that.

WOW!!! I'm very very sorry to hear this Adventure. But in no way have we been informed by our father to be like that. A Christian is more then just a title one has taken. Kinda goes along with that saying "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, that son of a gun is a duck" What these people were doing was NO way backed by our fathers instructions. So using the same saying "If they walk like a Christian, talk like a Christian, that person is a Christian". These people you encountered while camping were NOT walking as a Christian nor talking as a Christian.

Jesus could not have been talking about the torah's law though.

------------------------
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
----------------------

Jesus fulfilled those laws. What you quote is Jesus talking about the laws Jesus gave to us.

A judgment and murdering/killing someone is totally different. These people were to only judge according to the word. Not just flat out murder at their discretion.

And if they were following the Torah/old testament they would have known the prophecy of Jesus and seen it coming true. There's no excuse.

JESUS said:

"Therefore doth my Father love me,
because I lay down my life,
that I might take it again."
"No man taketh it from me,
but I lay it down of myself.
I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take it again.
This commandment have I received of my Father."

John_10:17-18

Actually I'm inclined to believe you one this one, but that throws a whole wrench into the situation does it not?

First off, Jesus said that not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law. Well jots and tittle are references to writings, not oral communication. Jesus never wrote anything down. So the literal interpretation of jots and tittles implies that Jesus was speaking of written law, and most people assume that means the Torah. After all, the claim is that Jesus is the son of that God.

However, like I say, I am inclined to agree with you on an abstract level. If the Jesus existed and said something along these lines at all, he was probably speaking abstractly. The "Laws" that he was referring to were most likely the laws of karma, which is what he basically taught in essence. The teachings of Jesus are in perfect harmony with the laws of Karma and totally opposite to the laws of the Torah.

However, the bottom line if taken that way is that Jesus was actually renouncing the Torah altogether and not supporting it at all, just as I have often pointed out. And that brings up the question of why anyone would think that he was the son of the fictitious God in that myth. He clearly didn't even agree with those moral values.

So when it comes to "jots and tittles" when, taken literally, it cannot be a reference to the teachings of Jesus since he never wrote anything down.

More importantly, if you want to take the reference to "jots and tittles" abstractly and reject the notion that they are a reference to the Laws written in the Torah, then you've opened up a whole can of worms in two respect:

First, you no longer have Jesus supporting the laws of the Torah.

And secondly, you now have interpretations that have become wildly abstract are no longer literal in any sense. And that brings up all kinds of questions. Like just how abstract can we go? If we're shooting for abstract interpretations the whole thing becomes an extremely ambiguous message (as though it isn't already ambiguous when taken literally).

So then my second point that an all-wise God would never be so ambiguous and confusing when trying to communicate such an important message.

So it just fails in every way imaginable. There's no way to save this mythology as a non-ambiguous message. No two humans in the world agree on what these scriptures are saying.

You even disagree with the entire Catholic Church and all of the Popes throughout history on the concept of whether or not humans are sent to hell or whether or not hell is an eternal state.

They claim it is, and you claim it isn't.

That's precisely how utterly ambiguous these scriptures are!

No two people even get the same message when they read these convoluted ambiguous writings.

You're not going to get anywhere trying to muddle semantics.

The Ten Commands say, "Thou shalt not kill", it doesn't say "Thou shalt not murder but thou may kill with good reason"

This whole mythology is a contradiction of a God commanding people not to kill and then proceeding to instruct them to kill other people for every reason under the sun including for something as simple as not observing the Sabbath! It wouldn't take much to find a reason to kill someone using the Old Testament as an excuse.

In fact, according to you all men are sinners and the only reward for sin is death, if you've just been instructed by God to go ahead and kill sinners based on your beliefs you could kill anyone you see because it's your stance that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". In fact, if you wanted to honor this directive with absolute perfection you'd have to commit suicide as well.

If everyone had actually obeyed all the directives in this book the human race would all be dead by now. We can be thankful that most people chose to disregard the directives of these absurd texts.

This is not true at all. In fact MOST PEOPLE at that time did not even believe that Jesus was anything special. The masses would have never stood buy or taken part in his crucifixion if people believed he was the prophecized messiah.

Besides that, the overwhelming majority of the Jews rejected these claims even after the gospel rumors got started. They still reject the gospels today as being false claims. They still do not recognize Jesus as having fulfilled the prophecy of the messiah spoken of in the Torah.

It's nowhere near convincing!

Look at how many intelligent humans even today have examined these texts in great depth and have totally dismissed the idea that Jesus was the predicted messiah.

Again we're talking about things that are extreme vague and open to individual interpretation. Moreover the messiah was supposed to become King. Jesus never became a king, so he couldn't possibly have been the messiah that had been prophecised in the Torah.

The only way you can make Jesus out to be a "King" is to pretend that he was a "spiritual" king.

But there's no way that this kind of thinking fulfills any prophecy.

The people back then (and even people today) really have no good reason to believe that Jesus fulfilled prophecy. The Christians proclaim it, but no one else recognizes it.

The Jews didn't recognize it, and neither did the Muslim, two cultures that are actually based on this same folklore. In fact, the Jews originally started the folklore. Jesus himself was a Jew.

His own culture rejected the idea that he was the messiah.

You say that there is no "excuse" but that's false. These fables are so totally ambiguous and vague that if they did indeed come from an all-wise God, then he's the one who has no excuse for creating such a convoluted, contradicting, and ambiguous message to mankind.

If anyone isn't convinced by it, this God would have no one to blame but himself for being so vague, confusing and unreasonable.

Like I say, even you don't agree with the Catholic Church and all the Popes throughout history who have read these tales and have concluded that there does indeed exist an eternal place of suffering and torment where humans will go if they aren't "Saved".

You reject that notion, yet you're going to claim that no one else has an "excuse" to reject the notion that Jesus was "The Christ"?

Baloney. The stories are extremely ambiguous and vague. There's truly no good excuse for supporting them when you get right down to it.