I still have no idea what you are talking about.

OOOPS. I GOOFED.

I FOUND THE QUOTE.

I APOLOGIZE FOR ACCUSING YOU OF DOING THIS.

I MADE A MISTAKE.

IT IS LATE AND I'M TIRED. I FOUND THE QUOTE, SO PLEASE DISREGARD MY ACCUSATIONS AGAINST YOU THAT YOU EDITED YOUR OWN POSTS AFTER I QUOTED FROM THEM.

AGAIN, I APLOGOIZE.

BETTER I GO TO SLEEP.

He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.


then he who healed us CAME and HE SPOKE and HE INSTRUCTED

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.



as we are created from this union, it is from this union we are encouraged to 'be fruitful', not from casual relations or promiscuity

After I provided an example case - I asked the following question:



The reply was:


You misunderstood my original example but clearly you believe that the law, as you perceive it to be written in the bible, is more important than the inner voice (conscience as you call it).

IN FACT, your statement indicates that God ONLY communicates through the bible and not with the individual at all, because you state that one must first know what is in the bible in order to know whether what comes from within is even correct.

Do you agree that I have restated your position correctly?

Then the mistake was realized and a further reply was posted:



Earlier, you stated that God works through people but that is inconsistent with your statements here. Perhaps you should consider amending your view of "God works through people" to the following:

God does not work through people but through the bible and only those who believe in and follow the laws in the bible can do the will and good works of God.

It makes more sense that way because according to you God does not work through people at all, and the only works that can be accomplished by an individual are good works and only when accomplished by a sinless person –while following the laws in the bible.

Now can you explain how anyone can do God’s work, much less his bidding, if God’s power is limited by what is printed in the bible and people are limited because they must be both a believer & reader of the bible and a sinless follower of the laws the bible contains?

I don't know if Jesus did all those things without a sexual mate or whether he was celebate or married. I thought the bible was silent on the issue.

However, there are other points to consider such as, whom does God choose to work through and how?
Can a sinner or non-believer do God's work for good?
Can a believer do God's work and it be perceived as bad?
And no matter what the answers are can any human actually judge people by the outcomes of their actions, when no one can know whether or not the person was doing the will of God?

It only take 30 pcs of silver to do God's work, the real question is, would God have other's do bad works at his will and then punish the person who carried it out? And would God have a sinner do good works, only to punish the sinner on other accounts?

When is it God's work and when is it not, and when is it good work and when is it bad?

As Cowboy seems to suggest, God only works through the bible so only those who read the bible and follow the laws within it can do God's work. But of course that is problematic, because if anyone could actually follow all the laws in the bible there would be no need of a Jesus sacrifice - would there?

But maybe Cowbow has an explanation for the inconsistency in his postings.

there is a lesson in all that we touch and experience, that is Gods working through us and others to deliver those messages

but they have the choice in their actions just as we have the choice in receiving the message

if Cowboy stated that the bible was the ONLY way to God, I would think he is mistaken as not everyone receives their message with the same senses,,,but indeed , however they receive the message,,it ends up with Jesus who holds the ultimate power to decide who enters his Fathers house


just as a degree is not the ONLY way to a career, neither is the BIBLE, but also like a degree, the BIBLE provides the practice and structure and guidelines which make the career more accessible than it would be without it,,,,

I think you've replied to the wrong post. Or maybe I just need to get some sleep. G'night - or g'morning as the case may be.

lol, its ok. the first quote was from old testament, ISIAAH, in response to covenant being fulfilled(more literally, by his wounds we were healed)

the second quote spoke OP topic of being fruitful by laying the foundation Jesus spoke of for such a relationship,,,,marriage (or cleaving) between male and female

Are you suggesting the if Judas had "chosen" not to accepted the message from God, that God would have just kept trying other people till someone did his bidding and turned Jesus in? What would that say of Jesus prophacy?

Or perhaps you are suggesting that Jesus fate, as a sacrificial lamb, was not sealed from the beginning? And what about the Jews the Romans who HAD TO PLAY thier roles flawlessly to pull off God's will in this matter? Where they condemed for succeding in "choosing" to do God's will? Or simply condemed to do God's will?

Is that how God uses people, as pawns in a game of chess? How can anyone know if they are manipulated by God or by the ungodly?

Would it be bad behavior to reap the good benefits of the actions of a 'bad-sinful' person while condeming the sinfilled person at the same time? After all, there are only two knowns - sinfilled personal behavior with beneficial rewards to others?

But if the rewards are the work of the ungodly, should anyone feel justified in reaping the ill-gotten gain? Who is glorified in that senario and who is punished?

If it's good it must be of God???
If it's bad it must be a poor choice of a sinful person???
If it's good but the person is known sinner it must not be of God???
If it's bad but the person is a believer, it must be evil forces???

But when is it ever God's will? And by what right does a believer have to make the determination?

OH - thanks, going on 24 hours - I really need to go to bed - over and out.

Gods will is explained in the Bible, throughout the experiences and sermons that make up the Bible,, part of Gods will is the consequences

it is his will that we seek him and find him and his will that if we refuse him we will be lost

he gives us the choice

You spend all of your energy spouting out against God,

Christians, and the bible, distorting truth,

even wishing others would die...

and you don't think that is evil?

You went from a christian boy who

considered the ministering of the gospel

and then to a hateful tyrant toward Christianity.



you have a hatred toward the things of God ...probably self hate.

you should step back and look at yourself.

Your behavior is very immature also volatile.

Truly.

Surely you have better reasons than these to claim that Jesus fulfilled prophesy. We really have no reason to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin or that she had bloodlines that go back to Abraham other than the fact that the men who wrote the hearsay rumors of the New Testament make these outrageous claims.

They also claim that a voice came from heaven saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased".

They also claim that many saint rose from there graves when Jesus was resurrected and that those saints went into the holy city and showed themselves to the people there. Yet there is no historical account of any of this outside of these biblical rumors.

Once you recognize that the New Testament is nothing but rumors everything instantly falls apart.

It's that simple.

No, I never say anything against "God", that's your misunderstanding. I simply show how the portrait painted by the authors of the Bible cannot possibly represent a genuinely righteous and consistent trustworthy God.

That's not at all that same as spouting out against God.

As far as the "Christians" go, which "Christians" are you talking about?

The actual authors of the New Testament. They were truly the only "Christians" everyone else who claims to be a "Christian" is just a believer in the rumors they wrote.

Yes I do believe that those early Christians who wrote the New Testament were devious men who had an agenda to use the rumors of Jesus to prop up the very religion that Jesus himself clearly spoke out against.

Then there are the historical "Christians" who used the New Testament along with the Old Testament to go out and destroy all "Pagan Temples" in the name of their "Jesus Christ the Almighty!"

Then we have the myriad of confused "Designer Christians" today, most of whom renounce the church and, all of whom have different opinions and views of what those old doctrines even mean.

And of course, we also see the fundamental Paper Popes who claim to be the only people who can correctly interpret these convoluted and contradicting scriptures. They LIE like hell to support their conclusions, and totally IGNORE any and all reasonable objections and refutations of their interpretations. They also flatly refuse to hear any other possible SANE explanations of what might have actually happened historically to cause these superstitious myths in the first place.

I have offered very sane and reasonable scenarios that make perfect sense. There is no reason to be upset about a sincere attempt to make rational sense out of history.



Excuse me? Where do you get the idea that I wish anyone would die?



Well I think it's evil that you would bear false witness against another person, yes.



Well I did go from a Christian boy who considered ministering the gospel, to an adult who realized that it can't possible be true.

Yes that much is true.

This epiphany only seems 'hateful' to someone who views anyone who questions Christianity to be a 'hateful' person.



No. But I do confess that I do harbor some anger (although it more like frustration) with people who support religious bigotry and jealousy in the name of God.

This is true.



Well, you seem to be hoping for something there that simply doesn't exist.



It's only 'volatile' because of the way that Christians react to any suggestions that the doctrine they worship as the "Word of God" might not be true.

That's what makes it so volatile.

If Christians could discuss religion in a civil adult manner and recognize and acknowledge that there do indeed exist other views that hold every bit as much merit (or even more merit) than the Christian view, then it wouldn't be a volatile topic at all.

We could all join hands and live happily ever-after accepting that everyone's view of God (or of not even believing in a God) is OK.

It's the Christian arrogance that refuses to respect the views of others that is the problem.

You respect my right to worship God through Wicca, or Buddhism, or Taoism, or whatever faith I chose, and I'll respect your right to worship God through Jesus.

What's wrong with that?

We can both praise God to the highest without arguing about it.

I personally can do this right next to an atheists who might simply be standing in awe of what they view as a "Godless universe".

Why should that be a problem for me?

It's the JEALOUSY of the God of Abraham that is causing all the problem CeriseRose.

That's where the problem stems from. Get rid of the arrogance of that jealous godhead, and all problems of religion go right out the window.

The negative trait of Jealousy spews from Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions).

That's truly the bottom line problem right there.

Jealousy. That's what's causing all the hatred that's always associated with the Abrahamic religions, and Christianity in particular because of their relentless need to proselytize and evangelize their jealous godhead onto everyone else.

Have you ever noticed that it's always Christianity that is the topic of these discussions that turn hateful?

If you don't bow down and worship the Christian God then you are spewing HATRED against GOD!

Yeah right.

My theory is that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva and that the Old Testament has no more merit than the Greek Mythology of Zeus, and that the New Testament is nothing more than hearsay rumors that try to use the rumors of Jesus to prop up the very dogma that Jesus himself renounced.

There's nothing hateful in that theory. It's a perfectly sane and intelligent theory.

All the Christians need to do is acknowledge that this is indeed a possible theory. That's all they need to do. They don't need to accept it for themselves, but the DO NEED to accept that it's a sane and viable theory for ME!

And quit accusing me of being a hateful person who "hates God" simply because I believe differently from them.

Christians truly need to WAKE UP, and come to their senses that a disbelieve in an ancient religion cannot in any sane way be grounds for some jealous God to condemn a person as being 'sinful'.

That's just utterly absurd.

Disbelief cannot equate to 'sin'.

That's an insane notion right there.

In fact, that very simple notion right there should be all the proof required to recognize that the biblical fables are indeed the works of obsessive controlling men who were lusting to have power over the masses, and not the "word" of any sane and all-wise God.

not too judgemental and assumptive,,,I have not been beaten into believing nor has anyone I know personally who believes

choose to believe or not, but dont assume that your choice is more enlightened or logical or mature than anyone elses,,,

once someone disproves the claims, it will be simple

until then, its a matter of which 'truth' speaks to the individual

my mother has told me things my DAD said, I have read passages of anne franks diary

all I have is my mothers word and the word of the publishers that these things were spoken, yet because of my faith in the integrity of the source, I believe them to be true and not rumor

just as I believe in the integrity of the bible

I have absolutely no problem with that at all MsHarmony.

You are more than welcome to believe in the integrity of the men who wrote the Bible.

The only thing that I request from Christians is that they respect my right to not believe in the integrity of the men who wrote the Bible without accusing me, or judging me, to be 'rejecting God' in any way.

It's that simple.

Just recognize that I see it as nothing more than the devious works of men. And accept that this is indeed a valid view of another sincere person. A person who is every bit as sincere and righteous as yourself.

That's really all I ask.

a man can't find his car keys he ask the lord"oh lord please help me find my keys so i won't be late for work" he decides to check his pants he had on the night before and finds them,he says "thank you jesus"...wow what a miracle


a family is in a hospital cause their dad is eatin up with cancer he's is in constant pain,the family prays together "oh lord please heal our dad from cancer we love him and want him to recover soon" 2 days later he dies.....wow what a miracle?

a tornado wipes out basically a "christian" community killing 52 people...2 people live look at the news reporter and says "yep the good lord was looking after us"