You certainly have chosen what you believe. Once you were a believer and YOU chose/tried to "change" your belief. You despised His Sovereignty; His Matchless Power. Deep down you still believe that the God of the Bible is true. In actuality you seem to envy His glory and even covet his throne... all men are limited in comparison to God Almighty's wisdom and abilities. You have always been dependent on him. He sustains you and you realize it but you hate the whole idea of it. He was present the day you were conceived and will be present the day of your decease. And you can wish all you want that this would all go away...but you, little man, will be long gone before the work of God has ended on this earth.

Psa_145:3, Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

Rom_11:33, O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Eph_3:8, Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable
riches of Christ;

You can search and scratch your head all you can but YOU will never logically, nor rationally figure The Almighty out. There are toddlers and children with more wisdom than you will ever obtain in all your lifetime of reasoning. You are hostle to your maker. I
pray for your parents who brought you up in the Church...what relationship you now have with them...I wonder. You despise their faith in God. Happy Thanksgiving, son!

I do!

You totally evaded the question.

Why did you CHOOSE to believe in such a violent oppressive religion that is obsessed with sin?

Clearly you didn't believe it first since you CHOSE to believe it.

No, that's not technically true.

As a child I was taught that the Bible was the word of God. I believed that lie. I could not possibly have believed that the Bible was actually the word of God without first reading it and understanding it.

When I actually went to verify the lie I had been taught is when I discovered that it was a lie.

In fact, this is the very lie that most Christians live throughout their entire lives. They mere "accept" that the Bible is true without even bothering to try to actually understand it.

That's not believing in the Bible, that's merely believing other people who have claimed that the Bible is the word of God.

In fact, it's precisely this kind of fallacy that keeps the religion going. If people had to actually understand the Bible before they can honestly say that they believe it, there probably wouldn't be very many Christians at all.



They are both dead. For whatever it's worth I had a wonderful relationship with my mother. My father died when I was 9 so I never truly knew him well enough to have much of a relationship with him.



Is this supposed to be a psychic reading or something?

I hope you're not going to charge me for this, I can assure you that it's false information.

It always comes to this when one states to an ardent, militant Christian that one is an Unbeliever. They can't stand it, and usually leave loose an arrogant torrent of abuse like this statement. Then try to cover it up with humility and 'concern' for the Unbeliever they don't even begin to know or understand.

Unbelievable.

I'm not feeling much Christian love here. And I know that many, many Christians aren't hostile like this. But many are.


-Kerry O.

Truly.

I mean, if it's all simply a matter of faith-based choice why not choose the fairy?

Why not choose to believe in Never-Never land?

Ummmm, who said I don't?

What's truly "utterly absurd" is that you admit to believing the lie and STILL proselytize it as if your views are the truth...


So who's evading what here? Still haven't, nor do I expect, to see any evidence of your claims which I challenged.

Certainly not me. I addressed your challenge directly and swiftly, and this was your response:



And I pointed out that this applies to the entire biblical cannon.

What more needs to be said?

It's the proselytizers who are demanding that people who reject the Bible are rejecting God. And clearly scriptures can be used to support that view.

I addressed this issue directly, you either missed it or didn't understand it.

All you did was fulfill my prediction, condemned to WHAT?

You claimed CeriseRose said this: "And she's telling people that they must "believe" or be condemned." Where did she say that?

You also ignoredthis challenge: "So show me where in the Bible that the claim is made that scriptures are "the infallible Word of God". "

Also ignored was this challenge: "Again, I would ask for evidence that Christ's crucifixion was God's intended plan for "propitation"."

Really Ab, all you've done is proselytize the Roman Catholics' claims. Claims which I've shown to be against scripture. Claims which cannot be backed up with facts. Claims which you yourself recognise as being influenced by paganism.


Care to deny one or all of the above?

*Prediction* - you will deny the facts and possibly even deny making those claims...

CeriseRose wrote:

"Great observation...
I truly believe there is a fixed gulf
between believers and non-believers
and it is plain that believers
want to share the Word
but those who reject God's truth
cannot enter in unbelief.
That is awesome but sad.
We serve a Mighty God!!!"

She's clearly stating her belief that non-believers will be condemned from entering God's Kingdom (i.e. Heaven).

Challenge #1 MET




You would first need to show me where I ever made such a claim.

I personally don't believe that it's possible for the Bible to make any such claim since the Biblical cannon didn't even exist when those fables were written.

Therefore how can a person who claims to be a 'Servant of God' be supporting an idea that the Biblical cannon is the word of God since there is no way that God could have ever asked anyone to do that?

You answer me that please!

Challenge #2 was a false accusation.



Again, this is not my claim, but the claim of the Christians.

I would tend to agree with you that nowhere in the Bible does it lucidly state this to be the case. But then the Bible is never clear on anything. I do agree with the Christians that taken in context of the entire New Testament rumors it makes sense to draw the conclusion that this is what these hearsay rumors are attempting to make a case for.

I have argued with you before on purely logical grounds that it would make no sense at all for a God to allow his only begotten son to be crucified if this was not his will and intent.

After all, what good would a God be to anyone if he can't even protect his only begotten son from harm?

Also, how PEEVED can you imagine God would be if his INTENT was to merely send his son with a message and then these dastardly mortal men killed him against the will of God! I think, if that were the case, we could ALL forget about any chances for salvation!

So if Jesus is believed to be the son of an all-powerful God, then his crucifixion could only have been the will of God. Therefore there must have been a reason behind it. And the reason that is given is that Jesus was the "sacrificial lamb" of God who died to pay for our sins.

You're kidding yourself if you don't realize that this is the Central Theme of Christianity.

Challenge #3 addressed in full.



All of Christianity was influence by pagan traditions and beliefs. Why do you think Jesus is a Capricorn born at Yule? That's when the Pagan God Child is always born.



I've addressed all of them in detail. And yes, at least one of them was indeed a bogus charge.

Don't quit your day job to become a psychic or prophet, your *predictions* don't have a very long lifespan.

This challenge would be much better suited for Cowboy don't you think?

He's the one who seems to always be claiming that the Bible is "God's Instructions and Law's for us to OBEY".

Also, CeriseRose seems to be supporting that the Bible has something to do with God as well as she's always quoting from it using chapter and verse numbers.

So where in these collections of stories does it predict that they will become canonized as the specific word of God, and that no other stories outside of these should be considered as 'God's Word'?

The fact is that it neither suggests this, nor predicts it.

Therefore the whole Christian religion is based on an ideal that can't even be supported by the very doctrine(s) it's founded on.

I'll be the first to agree with that observation!

So to Cowboy,... where do you get the idea that the Biblical cannon of stories should be supported as "God's Instructions to Humanity"?

I have chosen to have faith in the father for I have felt the presence of the lord. I have seen mountains moved. I have seen what was called impossible happen through prayer. There is no other explanation of why i'm still living other then by the grace of God. In all our so called worldly knowledge I shouldn't be here right this moment. I should be 6 feet under the ground. But through the grace of God I've been given the chance to continue to spread his word.

It's like devising a simple lookup table and then telling the world you've 'discovered' the penultimate Holy Grail of AI.

Or, in this case, Artificial Spirituality. It's a Judgement Machine programmed only with the most simple dogmas, and therefore incapable of rendering verdicts with any degree of emotional intelligence.


-Kerry O.

The bible itself isn't the word of God in that exact sense. It is a book of collected books from history. It's the books it contains is what is the word of God. Other books may have these collected books as well, not merely just the "holy bible".

Clearly?
1st, you put words into her mouth, you had questions about what she meant, so obviously it wasn't clear, now was it? Do you remember asking her this?:
"Cannot enter where?

Into the "kingdom of God"? "

CeriseRose spoke of a gulf between believers and non-believers. From her post, the only logical conclusion is that she meant that gulf, not heaven...

Definition of GULF
1: a part of an ocean or sea extending into the land
2: a deep chasm : abyss
3: whirlpool
4: a wide gap <the gulf between generations> (the most likely definition)

Challenge #1 FAIL!




I never "accused" you of making that claim. You did however, imply that others did (or believe it) numerous times...


http://mingle2.com/topic/show/288959?page=10
You said: "There can be no doubt that the Abrhamic religions spread religious bigotry, as well as bigotry against atheists too. In fact, the basic doctrine demands that no heathen or atheist can be "good", which is clearly a lie. Thus the doctrine contains obviously lies.

Is this really about spirituality? Or is is just about supporting an old fable that one culture's religion should be considered to be the "Word of God" whilst the spirituality of all other cultures should be condemned as "false"." (1st claim)


"Who serves a Mighty God?

And what am I? A heathen?

Simply because I refuse to accept the Bible as the "Word of God" and the idea that Jesus was his only begotten son who was crucified to pay for our sins? " (2nd claim) Nobody else used the term "Word of God", you did...

You "qualified" it later with this:
"So in order for Romans 2 to suggest any differently requires that John was either lying, or simply in complete ignorance of the truth.

So I'll qualify my statement a bit so that you might better comprehend it.

"Yet that's precisely what you MUST BELIEVE if you insist on believing these fables are the infallible Word of God"

Because clearly John 3:18 would need to be false, (either an outright lie or simply misinformation) either of which blows the idea that the Bible is the infallible Word of God right out of the water. " (3rd claim)

Finaly, you admit where you got the notion from:
"As a child I was taught that the Bible was the word of God. I believed that lie."

Challenge #2 FAIL! (plus the added bonus of denial, prediction correct!)







WHAT??? You concede this fact, deny this fact and then try to deflect it on Christians?

So the challenge still stands. Show me evidence of your claim:
"So if Jesus is believed to be the son of an all-powerful God, then his crucifixion could only have been the will of God."
(your continued claim is also bolded above)

Challenge #3 FAIL!





No, paganism is paganism, it is NOT Christian to believe those things. For someone who claims to be knowledgable, why is this so hard to grasp? Is it because ALL of your ranting would be misguided? God forbid if you were to insult Pagans, LOL!





I haven't been wrong yet, shall I make another?






Really Ab, you can't even tell the difference between paganism and Christianity, so calling me names like "Designer Christian" just proves that you have no logical rebuttal, let alone even know what a Christian is...

So Ab, do you remember my parable of the 5 foot man who claimed to be 6 feet tall? Do you know the moral of that story?

You should be 6 feet under the ground?

Is that were you believe you are going when you die?

No wonder you consider it to be a 'grace' that you were kept alive.

When my body dies it might be buried 6 feet under the ground, but I certainly won't be.

That's absolutely correct Peter.

If you believe otherwise then you're the one who's in some sort of denial.

What do you think the Christians mean when they speak of Jesus being their "Savior"?

They proselytize this continually.

You want proof? Just open your eyes and ears! It's all around you!

You aren't disagreeing with me Peter. You're disagreeing with the Christians!


Besides, like I say, if Jesus was the only begotten son of God, and it wasn't God's intent or plan to have Jesus crucified for some reason, then please explain to me why you think God could not have protected his only begotten son from a fate that would not SERVE HIS PURPOSE?

Now it's my turn to make a prediction. I predict that you'll ignore these questions or hand-wave them off with superficial answers that don't even begin to address them.

So here, see if you can answer theses?

1. Was it God's plan to have Jesus crucified? If so, then what was God's reason for having Jesus crucified?

2. If you believe that it wasn't God's plan to have Jesus crucified, then please explain why God could not even protect his only begotten son from the evils of men?

These should be really easy questions for you since you seem to already believe you have the answers.

LOL!
If it's the Christians' claims, then let them make them, not you...

1. No
2. Could not? Who said He couldn't?
Why didn't he? The same reason He didn't intervene to protect you from your "near molestation"...
God doesn't interfere with our free will.
What, are you expecting a "sky daddy"?
Why did your goddess allow these things to happen?
Why did you allow them? Since you claim to be god.
Why don't you ask God or Jesus yourself since you claimed to have spoken to them.



Next!

That's no excuse.

There is no reason at all that God would have had to interfere with anyone's free will in order to protect Jesus.

Moreover, if you believe that God cannot protect people because he cannot interfere with people's free will then God cannot protect you either. So why would the Bible contain verses like, "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

What good would it do to have God with you if God can't protect you from the free will of others?

Your answers are feeble and do not explain anything.

NEXT!

~~~~

Besides, looking at Jesus through the eyes of Karma I can see precisely why Jesus was crucified. He brought it on himself (assuming we can trust the the gospel's account of things).

Jesus failed to practice what he preached. He preached the 12 laws of Karma, but he failed to live up to those laws himself. He taught not to judge others, which was good, but unfortunately he didn't heed that advice himself. He judged the Scribes and Pharisees to be hypocrites and accused them of committing sins. He did this publicly in his ranting sermons. The Scribes and Pharisees were well aware of this and he often insulted them directly in public.

He also taught to turn the other cheek, but he failed to practice what he preached when he lost his temper in the temple and threw a tantrum overturning the tables of the money changers.

He created his own enemies, in high places no less. When he was taken to Pilot, Pilot found no fault with him and basically exonerated him. Unfortunately for Jesus the Scribes and Pharisees that he had publicly insulted were not so easily pacified. Pilot, in an act of poor judgment, IMHO, gave the Scribes and Pharisees an opportunity to incite a rowdy mob by offering them a choice to release either Jesus or Barbarus. Pilot probably felt that the Pharisees would need to be pretty desperate to crucify Jesus over Barbarus and most likely believed that they would not go to that extreme, but surprise, surprise! They did!

None the less, it was Jesus' own failing to practice what he preached that got him into that predicament in the first place.

It was Karma all the way. Jesus created hate by insulting the Pharisees, and they retaliated with hatred right back at him.

I'm not suggesting that Jesus got what he "deserved", I'm just saying that he caused the situation. A situation that would not have existed had Jesus chosen to follow the laws of karma himself and not insulted the pharisees in the first place.

~~~~

In any case, your claim that God does not interfere with the free will of men does not prevent God from having the ability to protect Jesus. There are many things that God could have done to prevent the crucifixion without affecting anyone's free will.

After all, if God could talk to men like Moses, and Abraham, then surely God could have spoken to Jesus. All God would have had to do was tell Jesus to leave the city once God knew that Jesus was in danger. In this way God would not have needed to interfere in anyone's free will.

To suggest that God has to allow bad things to happen simply because he refuses to interfere with the free will of men, implies that God is too stupid and lame to be able to come up with solutions that do not require interferring with anyone's free will.

I just offered such a solution right here that would not have interfered with anyone's free will. Are you suggesting that my ingenuity is greater than that of God?

Well, isn't that what Jesus taught?

Matt.7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Sure sounds like a "Sky Daddy" to me.




She does not interfere with Karma. But the question is moot in this situation because my Goddess didn't send Jesus on a mission to offer men salvation.




Because I don't claim to be a "Sky Daddy God". My claim to divinity is panentheistic. But I don't expect you to comprehend that.



What?

When did I claim to have spoken with them? That's news to me.

Where do you come up with all these off-the-wall charges?