Got it, Keys. Thanks.

The Passia maps are pretty good. I just looked at each one, and their
accuracy seems good. The only one I would argue a bit with is the
Sykes-Picot. Seeveral versions have been drawn up. The text of the
Sykes-Picot agreement is available, but it did not come with a map, so
the maps that purport to show what the Agreemetn was about are all
interpretive and not integral to the Agreement.

I hadn't seen the Passia map on the percentage of Palestinian and Jewish
and public land ownership just prior to the Israeli conquest of 1948. I
had studied the Mandatory numbers (the source for the map), and everyone
who has studied the conflict knows that Jewish ownership of land in
Paletine was about 7% of the otal, but seeing it displayed visually was
helpful.

Thanks, Invisible!



The maps I was going to poitn Red Wine towards predate the Passia maps,
in some cases by hundreds of year, but it seems like his request has
been met by these.

I still hope he will answer my question about where he came across the
notion that no maps showing Palestine as an defined entity exist prior
to 1948. Red Wine?

Oceans

So is the point here to determine who has rights to the lands in
question? In the end, what does it matter? If there are enough people
concerned and want to see the end of the horrors these endless battles
inflict, then there seems only one, currently viable course of action.
Working through the U.N.

Still, no matter what enforcement is used to attain peace, will
religious convictions ever truly die? It would take at least three or
four generations of 'new government' propaganda through every possible
media, targeted at the children of each generation, to force a change in
these convictions. Then, maybe, there can be the kind of peaceful
co-existence that would allow these people to be free of U.N. rule.

Again, does it matter who had the land first, is it your purpose here to
find and return it to the proper owners? And then what? Will returning
this land insure a proper, equitable and agreeable government to all?
Of course not. No sanctions can work, if you don't change the mindset
of those your are disinfranchising.

I guess I could have just agreed with a post Keys printed earlier, just
wanted to reinforce it with my own words.

Hi, redy!

I'm catching up with JSH threads...

Good post!

The reason this thing of "Palestine" appearing on maps is because some
pro-Israel advocates intheir efforts to support Israel's legal legitmacy
have asserted that "palestine" never existed, or at least not with
boundaries, or at least not as a political entity. They will say that no
map shows Palestine with boundaries or as a political entity. The
implication, they would like us to conclude, is that the "Palestinians"
are an artificial thing with no claim to Palestine. Indeed, in the late
60's Golda Meir famously declared that "There is no such things as a
Palestinian." Abba Eban, a long-standing and distinguished Israeli
Ambassador, said: "There is a Palestine, and it is Jordan."

Lots of Americans (and others!) were taken in by this argument, and so
the question pops up from time to time, as it did here.

So the many maps that disprove the assertion, and thus undermine the
implication, get dragged out.

This is the only reason that we go through this drill from time to time.

There are several other red herrings that get dragged out from time to
time, and involve a similar flurry of exchanges. They are all a bit of a
set piece!

In essence you are right; the legitimacy or illegitimacy of Israel rests
more on other more essential issues.



Oceans

Thanks Oceans. Putting together all that I know, really know, about
life, is what I've lived. Looking beyond this knowledge and attempting
to understand what others 'know' is very difficult. I appreciate all the
help that you and Fanta and others here have provided.

seems a lot of nations ruled that land.. The jews (the tribe of judea)
did once occupie and rule judeah (sic)
this is sort of interesting
Judea

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greco-Roman name for the land of the tribe of Judah, whose only stable
border was fixed by the Dead Sea to the east. The tribal homeland had
about a fifteen mile radius in the hill country of the southeastern
corner of Palestine, with its center at Hebron. There mountain ridges
rose to almost 3400 feet above the level of the Mediterranean only to
descend 4,700 feet eastward to the surface of the Dead Sea, the lowest
spot on the face of this planet.

David's conquest of Jerusalem on the border with Benjamin shifted
Judea's center further north. During the reigns of David and Solomon
[10th c. BCE] the tribe of Judah absorbed the ancestral lands of
Benjamin (to the north of Jerusalem), Dan (to the west) and Simeon (to
the south). So after Solomon the northern boundary of Judah ran on a
line just north of Modein in the west to Jericho in the east. After the
Babylonian exile [6th c. BCE], the province of Judea was reduced to a
ring of about a 10 mile radius around Jerusalem.

After Judea won independence from Hellenistic Syria [2nd c. BCE], Judah
Maccabee's brother Jonathan extended its borders westward to the
Mediterranean from Joppa to Gaza and John Hyrcanus annexed the historic
Judean homeland in the south that had been claimed by Idumea. Though
later Hasmoneans extended Judean control over Samaria, Perea, Galilee
and the Golan, these were treated as occupied territories and never
integrated into Judea even under Herod. So, except for Samaria these
territories were easily separated from Judea after Herod's death. During
the 1st c. CE the Roman province of Judea proper was about 45 miles
square.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From what reading i have done on this post. It seems thier is hatred
towards Israel. Why? A country that is in the middle of surrounding
countries that wish for it's destruction. To take sides with them is to
acknowledge Israel does not have a right to exist. When the 7 or was it
6 day war ( emphasize war) took place Israel was hated them. If Yahweh
would not of been on thier side Israel would not of defeated them so
decisively. reminds me of Israels entry into the promice land when they
marched for 6 days then on the 7th the walls come tumbling down. Since
when in a war if you gain control of land do you later say here I will
give it back then. Us Americans better be willing to give our land
back.We hear on here about what Israel has done to the Palistanians. But
when has Israel sent a suicide bomber in to kill whoever they can.
Whoever is next to them. Women,children who cares in thir mind frame.
They are not worthy of life a devil on earth. This is the mind frame you
are defending. Why don't you move over thier and leave our country
alone.. As for me I will Praise Yahweh for bringing his people back...
Miles

Hi, Trizar,

Thanks for the info.

Yes, lot's of history -- and that wasn't even the beginning of the
tribal history of Palestine, nor the end!

Do you have the source?



Oceans

You are very welcome, Redy!

Your posts and queries are genuinely thoughtful and have a lot of
integrity, so they -- and you -- are a delight to respond to.


Oceans

Right here read this, learn the truth. It will save time!!

Interesting -- with the US papers full of info on Iraq and Cheney, news of Afgahnistan and Palestine are both being ignored....

Both situation are deteriorating rapidly.

Though it is a much smaller place, Afghanistan is critical. Iraq is essentially lost to the US, but Afghanistan is still in play.

The Palestinians and Israelis are now back at going at each other full blast, with the Palestinians as usual getting the worst of it from Israel's military, modern weapons systems.

The odd thing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that in a profiund way the more the Israelis hammer the Palestinians, the more the Israelis lose long-term. This conflict is becoming more and more counter-intuitive....


Oceans