Having to admit to these amazing kids of mine, that I am human, and not all knowing, actually flawed and capable of making mistakes, was the highest level of accountability I could offer.

Explaining to them that doing my best at any given moment, and when getting it wrong; admitting I got it wrong, was my way of showing them BY EXAMPLE, what accountability is.

Me too.

And now being a grandma, my daughters want me to have all the answers...lol I can help them but I cannot tell them how to do it, they have to.

lol, nice try Dragoness, and I give you points for trying with this one, but what you just described is a ready made excuse for those unwilling to accept personal responsibility.

Yes God tempts us to be good, by promising an afterlife of "heavenly peace". Yes the Devil (Satan, Lucifer, Charles Manson) tempts us towards the evil side, or eternal damnation; but in the end it is still the personal choices made by us, that resolve what will happen or not happen. Thus it is our own responsibility that comes into play.

For example, I could say that I went to the bar, got totally drunk out of my gourd and slept with three prostitutes all because Satan talked me into it, by leading my wife into another man's arms, thus making me depressed. Then I see others drowning their sorrows, so I mimich them, and because sex is so pleasurable, Satan is easily capable of fooling my drunken mind into thinking that sleeping with three prostitutes will make me feel better in the end.

But in the end, it is my personal responsibility to choose the correct path to follow, and make the responsible decisions. Satan does not come in, and take over my body, mind and soul and walk me around like a puppet on a string. When I do something wrong, it is because I chose to do so.

it's not automatic as you suggest here. Yes I as a Christian, can go out, rape fifty women, kill all their children and have the men of the familes mentioned tied up to watch all fo this, then ask for forgiveness from God.

However, God is not going to give me that forgiveness, unless I am truly repentant, and sorrowful for what I did. That is something that a majority of Christians, imo, have forgotten; Forgiveness is not automatic. Forgiveness is something you have to be truly repentant and sorrowful for in order to achieve. And just because you are truly repentant, and sorrowful, and HAVE received forgiveness does not mean that you are not going to still be punished in the here and now.

Good evening Jess.
Wow I am so tempted, or should I say no, I will, send you a flower and in a curious sense of chivalry I offer it with a profound sense of thanks that you have found such a humanity in yourself that you are so willing to share that with your children. You see, I was the "bad guy" in my marriage and it took ten years of divorce to see and accept that for what it was, and to make steps to correct a very serious character flaw, but I learned, ahh if only such learning were easy...
Well anyway, to admit to ones loved children that they choose their flaws as an escape from a high standard, most probably self imposed,
oohh.. this is getting a little beyond my understanding and away from the topic.... I was just trying to say thank you for what you are teaching your children. Such courage. Such acts of personal responsibility.
This is really what I meant when I offered my opinion on ones sense of belonging. To be a part of.... I am sure that Alfred Adler, the father of individual psychology, would consider the guiding of and communicating with others about belief systems and ideals really does encourage a sense of belonging even in the commonwealth of mingle. Is this not a commonwealth? Is this not a place to feed and be fed? Is this not a place where judgement is suspended? For the most place..yes. Is this not a place to be nurtured and to nurture?
Oh well rose coloured glasses sometimes get in the way.

You have your right to your opinion about it also Daniel but I see it differently.

I see it as an excuse for non self responsibility and possibly a reason this country has had the problems it has had all along because the religious have been allowed too much power in our societies. Allowing too much non personal accountantability.

My opinion here of course.

Good evening dragoness.
I think that to determine inclusion and belonging as one and the same is a somewhat sorrowful thinking. Inclusion by its very definition grants its enemy, the opposite; exclusion some considerable power. A method of exclusion, as I am sure you are well aware, is used in many religions to justify fear and dominance. We live often to a standard that says..."Its my ball and if you don't play by my rules, I will take my ball away".
Also I disagree with your statement that "Self is independence". To become exclusive i.e without, is essentially to isolate oneself thereby being without a sense of belonging. Being Independent is not about belonging :it is about being entrapped in a world of hurt and rejection, a world of exclusion. Ahh what the heck do I know.

It started with parents when they say it's ok they are only kids, might not seem much but that is where it starts.

Religion is a good way to not feel accountable, If I hate and hurt this person it is because they believe not the same thing as me and that is ok because that is what my religion teaches me (believe our teaching or you are sinners).

Felling superior is another way, I'm better, richer, younger so i do not need to feel gullty I am better then the rest.

Race is another one (example only) I am white so I should not feel guilty and be able to do what I want to lesser race.

Just being human makes you be unaccountable to the rest of this world species. Let go kill the animals since I love to kill them makes me feel superior, I need to entertain myself and eat them even if I'm not hungry and my fridge is full.

Lets kill this planet suck it dry of its resources she has in her because I need to use my car for a 2 minute drive to the corner store.

That would be horrible as it makes absolute sense, everyone should accept responsibility for their actions and the reaction and/or consequence their actions cause. Stop pointing fingers and blaming another, I'm with you.

Well, I know 12 step programs for people who have addictions have people work a program of accountibility every day, through lists, looking inward, having a sponsor they have to be accountable to, having to have a higher power they are accountable to,having to speak in meetings for accountability about themselves, having to HOLD and chair meetings for accountability, and daily do an inventory on themselves to keep themselves in check.

They also have to be accountable to help others as well.

Alcahol and drugs, and sex, and other addictions are just symptoms of a bigger problem.

Thank you alcaholisim.

i'm accountable for gettin all twisted up over this girl bcos i texted her while i was drunk. i picked up the fon n typed out those text msgs, not the bottle of manischewitz concord grape. hahaha. boy was that stupid too. hahahaha. live n lern. no drunk dialin or texting! it's DANGEROUS!!

Read this post before. Get over yourself. I see that you're alive, of sorts, but what is it that you actually learned from that experience that has caused you to modify your behaviour for the rest of your life? In other words you proved to someone that you're a jerk now you come here and share the same thing with every one else. Now what do you propose for Act lll?

wow... sour much?

i dunno, for act III i thought about hiring a hula-hooping squirrel that can balance on a ball being balanced on the hind legs of a chihuahua as it walks around on its front paws.

maybe you'd like to weigh in now before you're just OBLIGATED to read that act AGAIN, so it's a little more entertaining for you the next time u see it.

self acct: Society broken down to the individual, to the one. As an excuse for the individual frailty or weakness , a label is put on that individual to represent a habit or illness thus leading to represent that that someone has an affliction that is beyond his or her ability to help oneself. Wherein truth that individual is responsible for every action in that person course of life. A decision or a reaction to a circumstance do bring bring about the fruits of that decision.. good or bad , the individual is responsible for that which he or she or they have created.

Which brings us back to a person has to make themselves accountable for themselves. It is a growth process inside each person. Either they reach it or they don't but we cannot force it on someone who is not going to do it.

Okay terminology aside. Dependence is a necessity in our human world but to be too dependent is always a problem.

Self sufficiency is grown from a wish to be self reliant, self responsible and a good support system.

its like when divorced people blame each other for why they got a divorce infront of the kids....or a coach blames the ref for losing 44-0 in a football game.........suing Mcdonalds cause their coffee was to hot......blaming TV, video games or music cause your kid killed someone......blaming your parents for being a serial killer

Finally I get to a point of understanding. I believe in interdependence, I depend on you to be strong when I am not. I am dependent upon you for challenging my belief system when my belief system may well be flawed or worse yet dangerous, otherwise I become nothing more than at the least an egoist and at the worst a sociopath. The "I know better than you therefore I am better than you' syndrome. I believe that we should all be dependant upon one another to keep our vanities where they belong. That is in no means an abrogation of personal responsibility rather an acceptance of what is the best for the community, and therein, ultimately my own social health. Without your commonwealth interactivity a lot of the negative vagaries of bigots would reign without challenge. You have a moral imperative to accept personal accountability. War is the ultimate abrogation of personal responsibility.