sorry if my reply was way off topic...I just sort of blurted it out...

Any religion that teaches it is the true and only way to live is wrong in my eyes. This creates division. Whether that be satanism to christianity. There is no difference to me at all.

Now at least Wiccans accept the rights of others to believe how they wish with no judgement. So that actually makes them more mature in their beliefs to an extent anyway.

Well, as you know, you actually introduced me to the Wicca Way via Scott Cunningham initially though a book that was really aimed at the solitary practitioner, rather than actually pointing to 'Wicca' specifically, even though it was Wicca oriented.

You also know, that from there, I moved on to the books of Christopher Penczak (again based on your suggestion). And I really like Penczaks books. I bought the first three books of Witchcraft along with all the meditation CDs right when you suggested him.

I've thoroughly enjoyed all of those books and found them to be quite educational. I still use them regurlarly today as they are indeed 'lesson books' and very useful. In fact, I just recently ordered two more of Penczaks books on the same series witchcraft and contacting spirit helpers. They are currently in the mail, so I'm still doing this dynamically and I'm quite active with it.

I've also purchased quite a few other books, tools, cystals, and other related items. What I pleasantly discovered is that these items are quite readily available, at least on the Internet, as are pagan web sites and discussion groups.

So it's not something that I needed to dig for. Amazon.com and Barns & Noble, have all this stuff. So it's pretty commonly available in that sense.

The other thing that I've also been doing in parallel with these studies of witchcraft and shamanism, is studying Buddhism and Yoga via the guidance of Deepak Chopra. In fact, I currently have over a dozen of his DVDs. I don't know if Buddhism is considered to be "Pagan", but to be perfectly honest about it, it's not hardly any different at all from the things I've been studying about Witchcraft and Shamanism. The similarities far outweigh the differences. So I see all of Deepaks Lectures as totally and fully complementing and supporting my studies in Witchcraft and Shamanism.

There's no conflict between them at all.

Although I don't know what Deepak would think about casting circles and using athames and crystal wands in the rituals. But take away the tools and it's the same thing. I tend to like the tools myself and the rituals. In fact, even Deepak supports the idea of performing precise rituals and using mood setting "props" or things to help focus mental concentration, and that's really all the tools of witchcraft truly are when you get right down to it.

I have no clue how anyone would react to this in my neigborhood if they knew what I was doing. It's not that I try to hide it or keep it a secret. It's just that I naturally live in a very secluded place and so people just haven't happened by when I've been performing my ceremonies. So I can't truly say how other people would react. I couldn't care less. I don't need their permission.

So I'm afriad I can't comment on that part of it.

I'm just really glad to have found this. THANK YOU!

O wow another person who makes comments about religions they know nothing about.. we only pray in the name of Jesus christ, not to him, and we dont pray to Mary, or saints, we pray to God for them to help us spritually, and to pray for us.


We pray in the name of Jesus Christ so that it shows God we recognize him as his son.

We believe we ca be be helped by others who are less than God, who have had our same experience as man.

Why not just ask God?

Well, why do people pray for people? why do people ask people to pray for them? Same reason.

Pagans as "devil worshippers" is a logical extension of scriptural default. Basically, the New Testament claim is that Jesus is the redeemer of all the world's sin - a tenet that sets up a moral dichotomy between Jesus-worship ( Christianity ) and all the world's other forms of worship.

Hence, if you're a pagan - or pantheist, animist, atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Shintoist, muslim or Jew - you are, by theological default, being led astray by one of the Devil's many theological disguises - a clever deception he engineers to prevent you from embracing the salvation of Christ.

Though paganism has historically sustained much greater condemanation and intolerance from Christianity than many other more mainstream religions because nearly all pagan faith systems incorporated human sacrifises to varying extent.

Basically the Bible says that almost all human beings are devil worshipers in one way or another

This sounds like a proclamation that Christianity divides the world rather than brings it together.

Also, why take this stance so strongly when the actual doctrine isn't anywhere near this clear. All the doctrine truly claims is that Jesus died to save the world. It even has Jesus himself saying that he will not judge anyone for not believing in him.


John 5:23 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."


So here John is claiming that Jesus will not judge those who do not believe in him. And also claiming that Jesus just got done saying that the Father has committed all jugement unto Jesus. So there's not even any room left to claim that God will judge those people.

Now clearly you could force the issue by digging around for other versus that would contradict what John claims that Jesus says here. But why force the issue? Moreover, even if you can find contradicting verses then you've already got a contradiction story anyway.

So why not just accept John (and supposedly Jesus) at his word that he did not come to judge the world and that he will not judge those who don't believe in him?

Why can't Christians ever take a postive view of things? Why do they always feel a need to dig around until they can find the most gory meanings and then demand that those horrible things were what Jesus actually intended to say?

I just don't understand why Chrisitans always want to turn Jesus into a monster. Then can never take the good things he said, they always have to dig around until they can find something nasty. And then they shove those nasty words in his mouth.

I like AllenAqua's approach to Christianity much better.

This is one of the reasons that I gave up on the religion. Even when I used to be a Christian I felt that I had to defend Jesus even from the Christians. I got sick of it.

Why make him into a monster? Why not make him into a saint?

The book is flexible enough you can go either way. It's really your choice.

Hi Allen!

It has been a long time!

I understand your personal beliefs. I was wondering about your perception of what pagans believe. When you hear the word "pagan" do you thing of "devil worshiper" or some other negative connotation? This thread is more of a survey to see if people still have, in general, a negative picture of pagansim in their minds.

But, that doesn't really tell me what your personal perception is.

You're welcome, Abra.

Allen, you are one of the sweetest people I know.

I guess that's off topic, too.

I always thought that the only people who viewed Paganism as "devil worshiping" was the BLEEPING christians. That is their fear label for what they dont understand.

Truly, the only devil worshipers are devil worshipers.

You're right, Wicca and Paganism is very mainstream, almost too mainstream in some senses. By that I mean the shops at the mall that sell spellbooks and charms....really? at the Mall?

That's my story and Im sticking to it

The only stuff available at the mall or anywhere else easily accessible is stuff for beginners. Most of it is just for fun and basically harmless. And, nost people are not willing to put in the time and effort studying and practicing that it takes to really become an effective practioner.

But I am glad its becoming more mainstream brcause I can't imagine living with the fear of being harrassed, fired from my job, or otherwise persecuted for my personal beliefs.

Pagans are considered many things around the world.

What is important is that whatever you practice can also accept other idealogies to keep peace and happiness.

May you find a path that brings people together and not away in distaste and hatred.

I'm both a literal AND a spiritual Pagan.

Yes, there's the ongoing crap with the devil worshippers around here, though it's AMAZING how they usually happen to be good little Xtian kids killing cats and dogs. Gee shucks! And apparently, some of the fundie Xtians think Islam is devil worship too. Can't win by those in ignorance.

Personally, I'd be happy if people everywhere stopped believing in ALL superstitious nonsense.

However, I have noted on more than one occasion, that wiccans tend to be kinder, more peaceful, more generous, accepting of others, less hypocritical and generally better people than christians.
As far as that goes, excepting the hypocritical part, I'd say they're better than me, too.

Christians tend to think that anyone not believing in exactly what they believe is of the devil. Even other christians.

When I first responded to this I was thinking in terms of religion and the religious views don't really apply to me much.

But maybe the 'freak' show applies more than I realize.

I've been on this forum for quite a few years now. In the early going I was simply viewed as an agnostic. I also have a lot of education and practical experience in the sciences. So for most of those years I found that people gave me quite a bit of respect when conversing about scientific topics.

However, last fall I became intersted in the spirital approach to the elemental world. Which is another way of describing witchcraft. I've also become interested in shamanism which is a way to contact spirits.

So I've been studying witchcraft and shamanism quite openly ever since then. In fact, I've been very open about it basically sharing all of my experiences totally openly.

Recently it's come to my attention that the scientitic-minded people on the forum seem to have picked up on this and have indeed been accusing me of attempting to use 'science' to support my spiritual beliefs.

It's actually the other way around for me. My knowledge of science has basically led me to witchcraft and a pantheistic view.

So I think there is a prejudice in the works with these kind of things. I think people do tend to view the "mystical" as a freak show.

They have no problem hypothesizing 11 dimensions to reality, an infinity of extra universes, cause-and-effect descriptions of reality that allow time to flow backwards, but mention spirituality and they fly off the handle screaming "You're superstitious!"

So yes, maybe there's more of a stigma attached to holding mystical views that I first realized.

Welcome to the freak show.

Actually, it's not really funny. There is a stigma and sometimes it bothers me more than others. Most of the time I just decide to say "screw it, I don't care what anyone thinks of me." But, other times it can hurt when people treat you like your "crazy" or "off".

I don't even want to know what people think of me!

I just don't belong on this planet

Well, then I won't tell you that I think you're .