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| Topic: Schools of Philosophy | |
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Sun 07/26/09 01:09 AM
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How could choice be possible in a world that is completely predetermined?
There is a way. I'm all eyes. 
Anytime you're ready. I'd like to hear the scenario. Okay here is the scenario. Mind you, I don't subscribe to it, but here it is. Can you imagine a many worlds, multidimensional universe? If you can, imagine infinite paths through this universe that are probabilities or "time lines" to different probabilities. For the mind, probabilities exist from the point of the present (now) in relation to the observer or the thing that decides. All probabilities in the path of the observer are equal and lead to all other probabilities, each having infinite probabilities every quantum unite along the path. They (probabilities) all exist within the 'mind' of the multiverse and each path taken has infinite numbers of predetermined outcomes depending upon other observers interactions and choices. Everything is already in place in the mind of the universal multiverse for the operation of movement of observers through all of the infinite probabilities-- and that does not change. The paths are there, and the outcomes are there waiting to be chosen, and all the laws of cause and effect are in effect throughout for some purpose which is meant to benefit the body of the whole. From the perspective of the observer or the decision maker, he has free will to choose any path at any quantum unit of his personal time line and anything could happen along the way due to other observers making decisions... but those are also probabilities that ALREADY exist within the mind of the multiverse. So for every event there are many probabilities, maybe infinite probabilities considering the quantum level of activity involved in an event that already exist. Okay now freeze everything moving and take a look at all the infinite choices an observer has. With infinite choices, it would seem the observer at this point had "free will." Even a single proton has infinite choices and would seem to have "free will." But at that moment all existing probabilities are equal and the structure is in tact with the laws of cause and effect for the benefit of the body of the whole. Everything is predetermined on the macro scale. It only appears that things are random. We have so many choices through the multivers it appears to be free will and so many outcomes are possible it appears to be random.  You should read "The Garden of Forking Paths" by Jorge Luis Borges. As a matter of fact, I think everyone should.Its a kickass short story It is about what you just describedOne of my instructors at college recommended it to me
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Sun 07/26/09 01:52 AM
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Gosh! Do you guys ever sleep? It is 4 A.M. over here in the East Coast?? Maybe you are all computer programmed computers that act like humans answering difficult philosophical questions with no "direct" end of absolute solutions? Well I am human and am off to sleep.
Have a great night and good luck on the logic you add on today
 See you later Smiless
Our death is in the cool of night, our life is in the pool of day. The darkness glows, I’m drowning, the day has tired me with light. Over my head in leaves grown deep, sings the young nightingale. It only sings of love there, I hear it in my sleep. -----Heinrich Heine |
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If it were absolutely random, there would be no way to consistently predict the solutions. There is no way to consistently predict the solution of a single quantum event. It's like rolling dice. Are you saying that a dice roll is not truly random just because the dice already have a predetermined form? No one is saying that there is no 'FORM' behind quantum events. All they are saying is that they are RANDOM tosses of that form. Just because there is a form behind them doesn't change the fact that they are still random. In fact, that a perfect description. Imagine that you're a physicist and the Wizard of Oz is rolling dice. All you can see is the faces of the dice after each roll. You can't see the wizard actually rolling the dice. After trying many experiments you recognize that the dice are being tossed randomly. So that's what's happening with Quantum Mechanics. No one is saying that the dice don't exist. All they are saying is that they are being tossed randomly. It's not predetermined. Why is that so hard to accept? Even if you could find the dice, you still couldn't place cause and effect on their tosses, because they aren't classial dice! They aren't predetermined by cause and affect. They are quantum dice and they are truly random throws. That's all there is to it. It's not chaotic. It's predetermined by form (like dice) but random in the outcome of every toss (like dice). So there. Now you can have random predeterminism.
The best of both worlds. Except is isn't truly predetermism in the Classical sense. It's random yet kept within boundaries. This is how God plays dice. It makes sense to me completely. I don't have a problem with it at all. |
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Edited by
creativesoul
on
Sun 07/26/09 01:30 AM
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Neither do I...
Each die has a face of(is governed by) laws which determines the liklihood(probability) of the outcome, nothing has ever been observed to have happened outside of those probability laws. That is causally consistent, even if we do not know why. 
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How could choice be possible in a world that is completely predetermined?
There is a way. I'm all eyes.
Anytime you're ready. I'd like to hear the scenario. Okay here is the scenario. Mind you, I don't subscribe to it, but here it is. Can you imagine a many worlds, multidimensional universe? If you can, imagine infinite paths through this universe that are probabilities or "time lines" to different probabilities. For the mind, probabilities exist from the point of the present (now) in relation to the observer or the thing that decides. All probabilities in the path of the observer are equal and lead to all other probabilities, each having infinite probabilities every quantum unite along the path. They (probabilities) all exist within the 'mind' of the multiverse and each path taken has infinite numbers of predetermined outcomes depending upon other observers interactions and choices. (Mind you, this a huge amount of predetermined probabilities.) Everything is already in place in the mind of the universal multiverse for the operation of movement of observers through all of the infinite probabilities-- and that does not change. The paths are there, and the outcomes are there waiting to be chosen, and all the laws of cause and effect are in effect throughout for some purpose which is meant to benefit the body of the whole. From the perspective of the observer or the decision maker, he has free will to choose any path at any quantum unit of his personal time line and anything could happen along the way due to other observers making decisions... but those are also probabilities that ALREADY exist within the mind of the multiverse whose outcomes are predetermined. Okay now freeze everything moving and take a look at all the infinite choices an observer has. With infinite choices, it would seem the observer at this point had "free will." Even a single proton has infinite choices and would seem to have "free will." But at that moment all existing probabilities are equal and the structure is in tact with the laws of cause and effect for the benefit of the body of the whole. Everything is predetermined on the macro scale. It only appears that things are random. We have so many choices through the multivers it appears to be free will and so many outcomes are possible it appears to be random. Ok, that's the Many Worlds Interpretation. Yes, that claims to salvage 'predetermism' but at what cost? The Copenhagen universe would be a darn site CHEAPER.
Also, the "choices" couldn't all be made consciously because we'd have to make infinitely many choices every nanosecond. So ultimately we'd have to resign that the overall bulk of our choices are random choices. All the Many World's Interpretation does is take randomness out of the physical universe and place it on our choices. It doesn't get rid of randomness at all really. And at what cost? I think the Copenhagen Interpretation is far more economical. Just let the physical universe be random instead of our choices and we only need the one universe. Sounds more efficient if nothing else. |
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Neither do I...
Each die has a face of(is governed by) laws which determines the liklihood(probability) of the outcome, nothing has ever been observed to have happened outside of those probability laws. That is causal.
So there you go. Now you can accept the Copenhagan interpretation of QM and recognize that quantum events truly are random. And that this is precisely what allows us to have free will. It's causal, but not in the normal classical sense of 'cause and effect'. Because the individual quantum dice tosses are not 'predetermined' only probabilitistic. Now you have the complete solution.
This is what Neils Bohr meant by QM being complete. |
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Edited by
s1owhand
on
Sun 07/26/09 03:11 AM
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and yet...
"Do you really think the moon isn't there if you aren't looking at it?"
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sun 07/26/09 11:55 AM
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and yet... "Do you really think the moon isn't there if you aren't looking at it?"
The moon is sustained when you are not looking at it by other observers who are looking. If no observers in this universe can perceive the moon, (and I mean all observers including the smallest insect etc.) then the moon would not be known to exist. It might exist as an idea or a probability but it would not exist for us in our reality. If you believe it would then I would like to tell you about the other moon. The earth has two moons. One of them cannot be seen because it is cloaked by a vibrational field. No observer in this reality can see this moon. The only reason I know it exists is because I have a time machine that transverses the universe and I saw it while phase shifting back to the present moment on my last trip, then it vanished.
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"Do you really think the moon isn't there if you aren't looking at it?"
Ask Joe Dirt...
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"Do you really think the moon isn't there if you aren't looking at it?"
Ask Joe Dirt...
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If no observers in this universe can perceive the moon, (and I mean all observers including the smallest insect etc.) then the moon would not be known to exist. It might exist as an idea or a probability but it would not exist for us in our reality. If you believe it would then I would like to tell you about the other moon. I'm actually a bit surprised at your response here Jeannie. It seems to deny some other things that you have held to be true in the past. In the past you have held the position that everything has some level of consciousness even matter that we consider to be inanimate. You've held that we live in a thought universe. I agree with that philosophical view. The entire universe is created and sustained by cosmic consciousness. Not by the physical biological brains of its inhabitants, but by the cosmic consciousness itself. Therefore I see no reason for any 'observers' to be present for the Moon to exist. The Moon exists in the comic consciousness. In the mind of God. In the quantum field. Not in the physical brains of insects. If you like, the quantum field is the "brain" of God. The physical manifestations in the quantum field are the dreams of God. The cosmic consciousness is dreaming the Moon. God is real. God is the quantum field. We are the quantum field. And so is the Moon. |
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Oooo... Ooooo... Oooooo...
Ah, nevermind!
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and yet... "Do you really think the moon isn't there if you aren't looking at it?"
The moon is sustained when you are not looking at it by other observers who are looking. If no observers in this universe can perceive the moon, (and I mean all observers including the smallest insect etc.) then the moon would not be known to exist. It might exist as an idea or a probability but it would not exist for us in our reality. If you believe it would then I would like to tell you about the other moon. The earth has two moons. One of them cannot be seen because it is cloaked by a vibrational field. No observer in this reality can see this moon. The only reason I know it exists is because I have a time machine that transverses the universe and I saw it while phase shifting back to the present moment on my last trip, then it vanished.
I knew you were a TimeLord like Doctor Who
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I think the Copenhagen Interpretation is far more economical. Just let the physical universe be random instead of our choices and we only need the one universe. Sounds more efficient if nothing else. But each one of us see the universe under our own sun of reality. So many choices ARE available as under a universal sun of reality each of those self universes is REAL. Economical would be nice but life has a way of showing us that something out there IS greater than our understanding... Every time we get cocky.
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I play Back Gammon -- a game where each move is determined by the roll of the dice. Over the years I've mastered the act of rolling to such an extend that I'm capable of determining the outcome --WITH THE POWER OF MY WILL! (not only my rolling, but even that of my opponent!!!)
I.E. I take the RANDOMNESS out of the roll * * * (making it predermined! and Anti-probabilistic! In other words, I mentally affect the quantum events * * * I often employ the same technique in the social life, though there are much more of the possibilities to account for... But, quite often, it works! I ONLY HOPE I WON'T BREAK THE QM LAWS BEYOND REPAIRS! ! ! |
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I play Back Gammon -- a game where each move is determined by the roll of the dice. Over the years I've mastered the act of rolling to such an extend that I'm capable of determining the outcome --WITH THE POWER OF MY WILL! (not only my rolling, but even that of my opponent!!!) I.E. I take the RANDOMNESS out of the roll * * * (making it predermined! and Anti-probabilistic! In other words, I mentally affect the quantum events * * * I often employ the same technique in the social life, though there are much more of the possibilities to account for... But, quite often, it works! I ONLY HOPE I WON'T BREAK THE QM LAWS BEYOND REPAIRS! ! ! Wow,thats cool.I kind of know what you mean.I used to be a salesman, and I got so good at it that I was able to get (most)people to do what I wanted through force of will like that.
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If no observers in this universe can perceive the moon, (and I mean all observers including the smallest insect etc.) then the moon would not be known to exist. It might exist as an idea or a probability but it would not exist for us in our reality. If you believe it would then I would like to tell you about the other moon. I'm actually a bit surprised at your response here Jeannie. It seems to deny some other things that you have held to be true in the past. In the past you have held the position that everything has some level of consciousness even matter that we consider to be inanimate. You've held that we live in a thought universe. I agree with that philosophical view. The entire universe is created and sustained by cosmic consciousness. Not by the physical biological brains of its inhabitants, but by the cosmic consciousness itself. Therefore I see no reason for any 'observers' to be present for the Moon to exist. The Moon exists in the comic consciousness. In the mind of God. In the quantum field. Not in the physical brains of insects. If you like, the quantum field is the "brain" of God. The physical manifestations in the quantum field are the dreams of God. The cosmic consciousness is dreaming the Moon. God is real. God is the quantum field. We are the quantum field. And so is the Moon. I agree, the moon would exist anyway but what I said was that it would not exist for us in our reality. Ours is a limited reality. What this means is that for us, it would not exist because we do not know of it. That is why I told the story of the 'invisible moon.'
I also said: "then the moon would not be known to exist." We as scientists insist that if we can't see and interact with something it 'does not exist." (Ask Jeremy.) Therefore, if we did not know of the moon, then officially it "does not exist" for us in our experience. If you think of it, then it only exists in your imagination. That is where my invisible moon comes in. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Mon 07/27/09 10:05 AM
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and yet... "Do you really think the moon isn't there if you aren't looking at it?"
The moon is sustained when you are not looking at it by other observers who are looking. If no observers in this universe can perceive the moon, (and I mean all observers including the smallest insect etc.) then the moon would not be known to exist. It might exist as an idea or a probability but it would not exist for us in our reality. If you believe it would then I would like to tell you about the other moon. The earth has two moons. One of them cannot be seen because it is cloaked by a vibrational field. No observer in this reality can see this moon. The only reason I know it exists is because I have a time machine that transverses the universe and I saw it while phase shifting back to the present moment on my last trip, then it vanished.
I knew you were a TimeLord like Doctor Who
Yep, I'm a timelord.
I LOVE DR WHO! |
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and yet... "Do you really think the moon isn't there if you aren't looking at it?"
The moon is sustained when you are not looking at it by other observers who are looking. If no observers in this universe can perceive the moon, (and I mean all observers including the smallest insect etc.) then the moon would not be known to exist. It might exist as an idea or a probability but it would not exist for us in our reality. If you believe it would then I would like to tell you about the other moon. The earth has two moons. One of them cannot be seen because it is cloaked by a vibrational field. No observer in this reality can see this moon. The only reason I know it exists is because I have a time machine that transverses the universe and I saw it while phase shifting back to the present moment on my last trip, then it vanished.
I knew you were a TimeLord like Doctor Who
Yep, I'm a timelord.
I LOVE DR WHO! I love Doctor Who too
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Edited by
JaneStar1
on
Mon 07/27/09 12:36 PM
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I play Back Gammon -- a game where each move is determined by the roll of the dice. Over the years I've mastered the act of rolling to such an extend that I'm capable of determining the outcome --WITH THE POWER OF MY WILL! (not only my rolling, but even that of my opponent!!!) I.E. I take the RANDOMNESS out of the roll * * * (making it predermined! and Anti-probabilistic! In other words, I mentally affect the quantum events * * * I often employ the same technique in the social life, though there are much more of the possibilities to account for... But, quite often, it works! I ONLY HOPE I WON'T BREAK THE QM LAWS BEYOND REPAIRS! ! ! Wow,thats cool.I kind of know what you mean.I used to be a salesman, and I got so good at it that I was able to get (most)people to do what I wanted through force of will like that.
*** I don't think that's the same -- after all the salesmanship involves the power of persuasion (i.e.spoken words) -- I don't think you've ever convinced your customers without any arguments (i.e. words)!!!  (i.e. using only your Will Power)
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