Damn David...

I understood all of that!

As always, you inject some consideration regarding the concepts of language and meaning within the discussion. The consideration of regarding the relationship between teaching and knowing lies at the 'root', to use your analogy.

It brings into 'light' the importance of not only what one has been taught, but also how well that which has been taught corresponds to that which can be learned as a result of it.

Definitions necessarily constitute boundaries of language which are completely dependent upon meaning.

Energy does nothing all by itself, does it?

Talk about the truest of truths that can ever be known!

Divine Artgurl,

The King of Swords humbly bows to your infinite wisdom.

NEVER???

SUCH IS A TOTAL CONSTANT, AND, ONE OF THE "FEW" IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE TO FIND???

boom, boom, boom, as such rock the soul to the quickening, the awakening, of ALL THE POWER SELF HAS, when such things are applied to all self speak and do!!!???

then, the heart see HOW, "ALL KNOWING", BEYOND THE PRESENT REALITY, IS TAKEN IN, AS IT IS ALL AROUND SELF IN ALL WORDS, AS ALL WORDS, ARE THE "ALL KNOWING", SO ALL SPEAKING, OF ALL WORDS!!!???

peace

You argument is simply one of PURE FAITH.

How is that different from religion?

You're just claiming that some undefined "conscioness" has free will and is intervening in this otherwise mundane and completely predetermined world.

All you're doing is claiming the existence of divine spirit that is seperate from this world in the sense that it operates on a different principle.

I have no problem with that, but lets face it, that's a PURE FAITH assumption that has absolutely no evidence or scientific basis. Plus it places spirit outside of this universe and acting on it in an intervening way!

If that's what you beleive then perhaps you should reconsider Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics allows for a completely pantheistic world. No need for any outside consciouness to intervene. What you see is what you get. This is it. All is one.

No need to seperate spirit from this universe. It's all one being.

OOPS ON THAT LAST ONE.

edited.

lol...

Dinosaurs do not exist.

Let me clarify. Consciousness manifests reality.




No that is NOT what I am claiming. And it is NOT based on pure faith. I have evidence that backs up my theory.

Consciousness is YOU and Me.'
We are the "event horizon" and all of reality proceeds and arises from Us. We create it. It is created around us. We are not outside of it.



If you think that then you clearly do not understand what I believe. Christianity believes that all things were created or manifested by a single entity. I am saying that it arises from all thinking centers (entities) everywhere.




A agree. I am not advocating any "outside" entity or consciousness. Consciousness dwells within us. We arise from that core.

Good point!

Therefor it follows that all that exists must exist NOW in this present moment.

Not in the past, not in the future.

The evidence that I have seen requires a complete revision of what is and has been known. The terms being used require a dynamic definition which changes along with the focus of the conversation.

How is the universe dissimilar to billiard ball game? The balls do not move on their own to the pockets. When you rack them and break, there are an infinite number of possibilities that can affect the end position of the balls, but one could not say that it is a randomness that caused those balls to come to rest there. It was the interaction of those balls with each other, with cue, the player, the environment, the table, etc.. The end result of that event could be measured using physics and geometry.

In our current understanding of the universe, we believe everything began with the big bang. So all events at some level owe their progeny to the big bang. There is your single cause. If we could know all the factors involved in the big bang and we had the mental capacity and time we could measure that event and if we could see the universe laid out in time line we could see how everything that happens had a cause.

The above statement speaks of this current moment in time.



I would agree with this as well, however, it does not substantiate the notion that time does not exist. It actually fortifies the belief that it does. Why else speak of past moments and future moments?

Time indeed exists, and is required to do so in order to even be able to contemplate your statement that it does not.

Circular?

That is like holding an orange in your hand while claiming that it did not exist before so.

Maybe time does not exist, all events happen concurrently and time is a human construct the make sense of it all and give it the illusion of order in way we can grasp.

What's your evidence? Care to share?

I want to say that I would like to entertain this line of thought, and will do so later...

Until then, I am sure that James has much to offer!

The only thing that i can express at this time is that billiard balls and their 'world' do not offer an explanation for the unpredictability contained within human behavior. Some call it 'free will', although I would not choose to do so because that would necessarily involve freely choosing, which I hold cannot be done. However, the unconscious elements are not the same, and I believe that those are what cause the unpredictability in our behavior.

More later...

All behavior can be boiled down to chemical reactions to external and internal stimuli, free will is an illusion created by humans. Randomness is like the olden days claims of attributing all things intangible in the human mind to a soul or spirit, it is just a way explaining that which we do not yet understand.

I still hold then that you are necessarily in agreement with me if this is your stance.

If you are claiming that Consciousness dwells within us and we arise from that core and we can make Free Will choices (i.e. choices that are based purely on random whim and not rigidly predetermined by cause), then ultimately you are agreeing that there is a random essence at the core of our existence.

That's all I've been claiming all along.

I'm merely suggesting that Quantum Mechanics has revealed to us the secret of how that random nature is manifest. It's manifest through the nature of complementarity.

The right hand not only doesn't know what the left hand is doing, but has no way of knowing (i.e. the left hand can perform the magic of randomness that the right hand can have no way of having knowing via mechanism of cause and effect.

That's what it means to have free will choice.

Quantum Mechanics simply shows us how this ability to have free will within the confines of a physical cosmos has been bestowed upon us.

It shows us how the mind of God works. It shows us how the dice are thrown.

I would have to differ with you dramatically on this.

Quantum Mechanics, Quantum Observations, Quantum Actuality (i.e. experimental evidence) all suggest otherwise.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Complementarity, Quantum Entanglement, the EPR argument and Bells Theorem, all suggest that the randomness that we obvserve in quantum phenemonon are not due to a mere limitation in our understanding, but are indeed a directly property of nature.

In other words, even nature herself cannot know ahead of time what the results will be.

This is a fundamental requirement of Quantum Systems.

And it's not just theory.

Technologists are actually using quantum technology to do things that would otherwise be impossible to do if these conclusions were not true.

The randomness of quantum mechanics is real.

You can talk about it in terms of forfeiting the barrier of the speed of light if you wish, but if you pay very close attention to that path you will see that you must also forfeit any concept of temporal cause and effect to do that.

So yes, while that path leads to similar results it doesn't preserve anything.

Once you do way with the concept of time, all cause and effect goes out the window.

What have you got left but total randomness?

The key is in the concept complentarity the impossiblity of any event in this universe to have anymore than one "perfectly" defined trait at a time.

That's the KEY!

If you want to change one of it's traits all you need to do is put your finger on one of those traits, and the other trait is then free to become whatever you wish it to become.

It's a universe that is a balancing act of part cause and effect, and part randomness.

There will never be a time when that will change, unless the very nature of the unviverse itself changes!

This property of the universe has already been observed!

It's not just a theory.

In fact, people are already designing computers that take advantage of these facts.

And the Bose-Einstein condensates are bringing the quantum behavior into the MACRO WORLD! So keep an eye out for that technology to blossom as well.

Newton's universe is dead. Bless its soul.

The quantum universe is our 'new reality', although it's been our reality all along actually.

Then we do agree. And randomness is simply the will to choose a thought or course of action. Since all thinking centers possess a will (if they choose to use it) they are what creates (the appearance of) randomness.

That is why I say that CAUSE IS THE WILL. And the will is random by nature of its "freedom" to think and act or be.(exist)

There is no randomness that does not arise from the will of a thinking center or the will of a point of consciousness, or the will of a collective consciousness.

The clash of wills are what cause the appearance of events you call "accidents" or "pure chance."

All living things (perhaps all things, even minerals) have a will, even coconut trees whose will is to bare fruit and drop it to the ground. This will is but an automatic program of a consciousness that bares no similarity to our own, and most people do not think of a tree as having a will of any kind.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle has been overcome. We don't need a perfect understanding of something to exploit it, though.

http://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=5678