Haha. This thread is like a dog chasing it's tail. And around, and around we go.....weeeeee

It's true. Any attempt to justify the Bible is indeed like a dog chasing it's own tail. That's why I eventually gave up on it. As did Sir Isaac Newton! And Albert Einstein, and Carl Sagan and Richard Feynman, and just about every other truly great thinker.

The Bible itself refuses to be justified. It's based on a whole lot of conflicting and inconsistent stories. If it were representative of the mind of God our only conclusion could be that God is suffering from advance dementia. There's NO OTHER POSSIBLE CONCLUSION. The book demands that God is a serious schizophrenic suffering from Alzheimer’s disease.

There's no other conclusion possible.

In order to believe in the Bible we must believe that God is totally incognizant and incapable of keeping a consistent line of thought. The book is totally inconsistent and self-contradicting.

Proof positive that it was written by mortal men who all had slightly differnet agendas.

It's just not consistent at all.

That's the TRUTH. Nothing but the TRUTH.

What part of "I really couldn't care less how you came about your conclusion" do you not understand. Here - let me explain it for you. I'm not trying to make it appear that there's any motivation on your part. I haven't taken that much time to even think about it. But apparently you have, so now that you've explained your motivation - let's return to my point:

You don't want the bible to be true. I know this because YOU posted it.



I find it interesting that you are attempting to to explain to me what my motivation is for my statement. Not only do you make up your own God - you claim to be God. My investigation of "scientific fact" is not motivated by religion, but for a demonstration of truth. I will say this though, I understand enough about the difference between faith and science to know that Evolution is NOT science. It epitimizes the definition of a faith based philosophy.



We're not talking about science - we're talking about Darwinian based evolution - which is a philosophy - it's conjecture not a "scientific theory".



Exactly my point. The idea of man and ape sharing a common ancester is anything but science. You can dress that pig up all you want in fancy terms and pseudo observation - but it's still a pig, for there's no demonstratable evidence to support that man and ape "share" an ancester, only conjecture based on an observation that demands a belief in unacceptable premises.



You keep refering to "science" - obviously you did not read my post. In any discussion with you, Evolution does not equal science. Stop claiming I'm talking about "science" when I'm discussing Evolution. I clearly stated my position on the difference between science and evolution. Adress that issue if you'd like but stop refering to my opinion on science, that strawman burned down long ago. Else, I will tend to think that it is you who knows nothing about science.



Here - let me clarify this for you. I'm not discussing any concept I believe in on this thread. Never have, never will. My point is that I do NOT BELIEVE in the religion of Evolution.

I can't imagine any sane person wanting the Bible to be true.

The Bible claims that we have all failed our creator and that he had to have his son butchered on a pole to pay for our horrid rejection of him.

Why would any sane person want to believe such a horrible thing?

You seem to be totally avoiding that issue altogether.

I only bring that point up when people start telling us that we need to have FAITH.

Why should we want to have FAITH in such a dismal picture?

You've never answered that one. You just keep making out like this should be specific to me. I ask you why any sane person would want to believe that they have failed their creator and were responsible for that creator to have his son butchered on a pole.

Why would anyone want to believe such a horrid thing Eljay?

Do you want to believe that? You never even responded to that question. I can only imagine that you believe it solely out of fear of what might happen to you if you reject the story.

You can't seem to offer any reason why anyone should want to believe that they've failed their creator and were responsible for having his son butchered based ON PURE FAITH.



Evolution is not a religion. It's science.

You're either totally uneducated, or just being silly.

Okay so you bring up an interesting point - not one that I considered beyond being rhetoric.

The fact of the matter - for me anyway - is that it does not come down to wanting the bible to be true. In terms of wanting being equated with desire - I would have to say that I would wish for everyone to reach heaven/Nirvana/Vallahala, whatever one choses to call it... suffice it to say, an eternity that is everything wonderful about life on earth with none of the things that cause sadness, strife and pain. Most of the attributes described in every reliigon known to man. They all seem to have the goal of some sort of "spiritual perfection" - for lack of a better term.

That being said, I just discovered a different conclusion in my study of the basic tennets of religions (losely defined as searching for the truth) than you. It has more to do with finding a lack of reasonable premises in all of the other world religions (Atheism included) and not so many with Christainity. I don't try to explaion the why's of the bible, nor do I try to measure it up against my own idea of a moral standard. I merely read it for what it said. Admitted ly, I did not start with the O.T., I began by reading the New Testament, and realized that all that I had thought it said based on my Catholic upbringing, was not what I was reading. Oh, it was close enough - but having read the bible for myself, I found the teachings of the Catholic church rather wanting in terms of what Christainity really is. Having attended a number of "protestant" congregations - I found them to be wanting as well. So I just embarked on dealling with what the bible said on it's own - not for what any denomination was telling me it said. I read christain apologists, and Atheist detractors. I continue to do so. I watch all of the U-tube stuff that is supposed to represent proof that christainity is false. As you might surmise, I'm not impressed with them. They build strawmen that I don't see representing the contectual christianity, and proceed to spend a lengthy time burning them down. It would be much easier if they just demonstrated how thir premises are false to begin with, rather than taking all of the time they to to round-aboutly do just that.

Anyway - my point is - I don't find the idea that man "let's down God by commiting "sin"" - or what-ever one wants to call it. Falling short of doing what is right is how I think about it. It's just a fact of life. Everyone does it. There isn't any "fear" about it - it is what it is. There's just no point in trying to convince myself I don't do anything bad - whether on purpose or not. It just makes sense to me - that in considering the God of the bible, as Creator and all that is infered to him, that I have no reason to doubt it. I had numerous questions about the bible over the years, and have - for the most part, had those questions answered through either contextual study, or mere experience.

So - that's where I am with it. Wanting it to be true - not a question I consider asking myself. Having the faith that it is - more and more so with every day that I research it, and it's alternatives. Until there is clear evidence to convince me otherwise, and believe me - if there is, I'd want to know about it, I remain.

Thank you for finally responding with an answer that actually makes sense.

I would actually agree with much of what you said, but at the same time I have problems with the 'religion' as a whole.

I'd just like to share these with you for the sole reason of sharing views.

Anyway - my point is - I don't find the idea that man "let's down God by commiting "sin"" - or what-ever one wants to call it. Falling short of doing what is right is how I think about it. It's just a fact of life. Everyone does it.

I would certainly agree with that. But at the same time I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where God ever commanded anyone to be perfect or claiming that imperfection was a sin. Especially not of the magnitude to warrant such a catastrophic sacrifice as having his son brutally murdered to pay for our "failings".



Well this is where we part ways significantly.

I too have researched other alternatives and I've found many that are far more sensible than the Bible, IMHO. So clearly we different vastly on that point.

The other place where we clearly differ is concerning the reasons to consider whether or not the Bible might actually be divine and the word of some consistent God.

This is clearly where we differ greatly. I see a myriad of contradictions in the Bible, not the least of which is the fact that Jesus didn't even agree with the ways of the God of Abraham. That's seems quite strange to me that the son of a God would disagree with his own father (especially when that this is supposed to be a monotheistic religion of a trinity where Jesus and God are indeed just two faces of the same Holy Spirit). We can't have three seperate Gods here or we end up with polytheism which the Christians were desperately trying to avoid because they didn't want it to end up being like Zeus and Apollo all over again.

In any case, there are a couple of major points that convinced me to walk away. (actually there were a myriad of major points, but the following are significant I think).

First off, what does it mean to accept Jesus as your "Savior"?

Well, it means that you accept the sacrifice that God made to you by having Jesus crucified.

Well, what does that mean?

Well, clearly it means that you ACCEPT the crucificion for YOUR SAKE!

That's all it can mean.

But what would that mean? Well, for starters it would mean that if you had been there at the time of the crucifixion you'd be willing to take part in it or even nail Jesus to the Cross yourself.

Absolutely!

In fact, if you feel deep inside that you would anything to prevent the crucifixion then you're NOT ACCEPTING IT!

The whole idea is to ACCEPT the sacrifice of God's Son. If you feel in any way that the crucifixion was wrong or that you would not condone it, then you are NOT accepting the sacrifice.

So to accept the sacrifice of Jesus for your sake would require that you actually accept it, and not try to blame it on those nasty Romans, or Jews, or whomever. If you going to accept the sacricice for your sake then this is precisely what you must do. You must accept that YOUR THE REASON it had to be done, and it was in fact done for YOU, and you ACCEPT this act being done for you.

I have serious problems with that. Even if the story were true I'm afraid I'd still have to reject the sacrifice and say, "No thanks, I don't condone that act on my behalf". It wasn't my plan, nor do I feel that I have EVER done anything that would warrant such a punishishment in my entire life. And if I haven't done anything to warrant such a punishment why should I accept someone's sacrifice for things that I don't even feel responsible for.

You say that we are all "imperfect". That may be true, but there's a huge difference between being imperfect and having purposefully carried out malicious acts to spite God or anyone else. I've never done that in my life.

So, now we must turn to the text and see what the text actually SAYS.

Well, Jesus himself was quoted by the very Bible that he did not come for the righteous but for the sinners.

Ok fine, maybe that explains it then. God sacrificed Jesus for the sake of genuinely evil people, he wasn't sacrificed for the righteous people. Even the idea that Jesus' mother was sinless proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that there or mere mortal people who are NOT sinners.

Yet, other places in the Bible it claims that ALL are sinners and ALL must accept Christ as their savior. This is all INCONSISTENT and totally contradicting.

Moreover, if you start going through the Bible with a fine tooth comb to see where the contradictions are you come away with more contradictions than can be kept track of.

How you can't see that is beyond me. Even Jesus contradicted the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham clearly had people judging each otehr and stoning sinners to death. Jesus denounced both Judging otehrs and stoning sinners to death.

If that's not a contradiction I don't know what is. Jesus and God are supposed to be the same entity. Remember this is supposed to be a MONOthesitic religion!

The God of Abraham also taught people to seek revenge as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and confessed to being a jealous vengeful God HIMSELF.

Jesus was the antithesis to this. Jesus preached forgiviness and to turn the other cheek. The EXACT OPPOSITE of what the God of Abraham seemed to have in mind.

At best, this is a God who changes his mind drastically if not his ENTIRE PERSONALITY.

This is a God who sends MIXED messages. Moreover, the God of Abraham clearly instructed the Jews to murder any "heathens" where a heathen is defined as nothing more that someone who teachings something OTHER than what the WORD of the God of Abraham taught.

Yet, this same God of Abraham supposedly sent Jesus to teaching precisely THE OPPOSITE things that he taught?

That's not a contradiction?

If the Jew were responsible for having Jesus crucified the God of Abraham most certainly couldn't blame them! They would have been doing PRECISELY what he commanded that they MUST DO!

This would be a seriously mentally ill God who is sending mixed messages in the worst possible way.

How can you justify any of that?

I've finally concluded that there are so many contradiction that it can't possibly be true. And also, even if there is some kind of distorted vauge truth between the lines, then it probably does come down to the idea that Jesus had been sent for the sake of the SINNERS and not the RIGHTEOUS, (just like Jesus himself was quoted as having said).

I personally think the whole thing is a train-wreck, but I can see where evil people who know they've done really bad things might want to believe it so they can be saved from the terrible things that they've done.

But the idea that this God was ever out to make good people feel guilty just makes no sense to me.

And there are a myriad of other reasons why I have a problem with this story, as I've been posting them for the past few years now.

You say that you find problems with other spirituality. I guess that's where I differ with you the most. I find various pantheistic views of God to be far more realistic and sane.

So I guess that's were we truly differ the most.

By your own confession, you can't seem to find a 'better' picture so you're stuck with the Bible or Atheism.

I've found better pictures of God, so I never had to bring it down to the Bible or Atheism.

I guess that's truly are major difference right there.

I wouldn't even mention the Bible if there wasn't so much proselytizing going on for it. But unfortunately the proselytizing for it never stops. And the proseltyzing truly does denounce, science as well as ALL OTHER RELIGIONS, and it even tries to make out atheist to be bad people who are rejecting God.

It's just an accusatory religion.

In fact, the Protestants denounce the Catholics and vice versa. Protestant demonination denounce other protestant denominations. It's just Christians denouncing Christians all the way around. Not to mention the hostilities of the Jews and Mulsims tossed in, which is basically the SAME RELIGION actually.

Clearly if the whole world were converted to "Christianity" that'd just be the beginning of the real "Holy Wars" because this is a religion that is constantly arguing over the interpretation of it's very own extremely ambigious doctrine.

I just don't see where it has any positive value for humanity.

Not to mention that after you get past all the Jesus stuff you end up with the Battle of Armageddon. It's just negative right to the very end, and isn't conducive to viewing the planet we live on as a long-term home.

On the contrary it has 'worldy things' as being the realm of Satan.

The religion basically DENOUNCED CREATION as being the EVIL realm of Satan.

Whatever happened to "In the Beginning God saw what it was good"?

Poor nature is now the domain of Satan.

It's a religion that rejects the Earth as the realm of Satan.

That's determental to humanity, IMHO.

Humans rejecting MotherShip Earth.

How is that positive?

Sin cut us OFF from God.

Jesus is the BRIDGE that CONNECTS US BACK With God.

That says it all..

As I said before it is a given that there are going to be the extreme views on both side that are going to say no matter what the other side is wrong. And personally if some one past the same thing over and over again like they do on these forums it is not going to make it true. Saying I am some what inferior in some way because I don't believe what you do is not going to change my mind. Give me factual evidence that I can see, smell, taste, touch then it will have an effect on me. I believe that most people in the middle who are undecided on this issue would also do the same.

It was the Pope who ordered that the Bible be studied to refute Darwin when his published Origin of the Species. This resulted in the Catholic Modernist movement, as well as, masses of Cathokic theologians leaving the Church because they found the Bible full of contradictions and untruths. Most of the Bible critism quoted on this thread comes directly from the research of faith-based people trying to prove the book to be G-d's word and finally having to re-evaluate their faith.

Edited for brevity

Anyway - my point is - I don't find the idea that man "let's down God by commiting "sin"" - or what-ever one wants to call it. Falling short of doing what is right is how I think about it. It's just a fact of life. Everyone does it.

I would certainly agree with that. But at the same time I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where God ever commanded anyone to be perfect or claiming that imperfection was a sin. Especially not of the magnitude to warrant such a catastrophic sacrifice as having his son brutally murdered to pay for our "failings".


I don't have much use for "religion" myself. I have spent enough of my life involved in one way or another with a variety of them - from Catholicism to Buddism, and find them all wanting. Especially when it comes down to what I call "Oral Tradition" - or also known as "Majority consenses" as far as interpretation.

As to "God" expecting perfection... The biblical mandate coes from Jesus in Matthew 5: 48. It is part of the Sermon on the mount where he discusses "Love for Enemies". To paraphrase the chapter, he asks what purpose is it to only love those who love you, as even the pagens do that. Then we get:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect".

Can't get any plainer than that, and it isn't said as a suggestion. Sure - you say, no one is perfect. And the response to that is "Exactly". But this - taken by itself isn't a true representation of the point that Jesus is trying to make. Contextually - Jesus is constantly rebuking the disciples for not seeking guidance from God, and relying on their own understanding. It is a constant theme throughout the Old Testament, and Jesus is just driving the point home. He knows that the disciples are incapable of being perfect - because their tendency is not to seek God. Yet - it is still his directive, because to be in God's absolute will, is to be perfect as He is. At least that is pretty much understood as a central idea of scripture.



While I am pretty much aware of the numerous "contradictions" that you have, especially about the Old Testament, I tend to think of these as "conflicts", as opposed to "contradictions" - because a contradiction would be something that is stated contrary to the actual event, whereas "conflict" is more like going against the anticipated event. In other words, it is not a contradiction to establish corporal punishment in Leviticus, and then state "Love thy neighbor as thyself". It may establish a conflict - but it's not a contradiction. At least that's how I term it. Perhaps this is where we digress greatly. I'm not unaware of the conflict of a vengeful and wrathful God - but I don't see it as a contradiction to an omnicient and all powerful God. It is approaching the issue from two different perspectives that I don't equivicate.

Also - I don't see the idea of the trinity as that simplistic. Though I don't feel I could explain it adequately, I can certainly comprehend it.

I hope you don't find offense in this - but I consider the Pope just another guy, and don't consider Him to be any more knowledgable about Christainity than any other "believer" on this site. I would tend to think that He is more misinformed about Historic Christainity than most laypeople who have read the bible and studied it for themselves - because he is mired down in having to justify Catholic tradition through pretext - since a lot of it is contrary to context.

So any mandate from the Catholic church concerning Evolution is irrelivant to me. And again - I do not see the Catholic church's support of evolution or an old earth as representative af anything "Christian". There's no authority there.

If God was all-wise, God would know how to solve the problem.

Cleary God is not all-wise. That's pretty obvious.

The wrong assumption is that God is external. If you keep looking to the clouds for God you'll never find the answers. All you'll find is water vapor.

If you want to find God you must look within.

You got part of it right. If mankind is going to remedy anything it's going need to come from the choices that mankind makes. Period.

The sooner we face that truth the better off we'll be.

As long as we keep praying to the clouds and pointing fingers at each other calling each other sinners we'll never achieve anything.

Actually - I'm not about pointing fingers and calling someone else a sinner - I'm not their judge, nor their keeper.

In terms of God having solved the problem - He has. Jesus is the solution according to the bible. (Not meant to proselytize, just following through on the point)

As far as finding God within - what is the criteria for determining what is God - and what is not? One of the difficulties I have with Eastern based religion that I've discussed at length with those who practice them. From New Age to the Extreme Cultists - which I have never had problems finding in my days in the Cafe's of Harvard Square and the Haight/Ashbury. In those days - I was studying those religions. I never found the answer to that question myself, and most of the friends I discussed it with, felt that this was the quest.

Anyway.

We're a tad off topic - so, I still await some of the questions I ask in sincerity about just why "Evolution" (and I'm not talking about observable mutations within a species - you get the point) is science? To me - it fits all of the criteria of a philosophy, or "religion" if you will, rather than a verifyable, demonstratable scientific theory.

OK!

So, the Pope and catholicism are not representative of christianity.
Protetantism isn't representative of christianity.
Science, the scientific community, all tangible manifestations from scientific research, has absolutely no authority when it comes to holding the scientific theory of evolution, HAS PIECE AND PARCEL OF SCIENCE!!!

Hold on here! All you've been saying for the longest time 'Eljay', is YOU know better.

Since YOU have been deceived by catholicism, the pope and all 1,3 billion catholics around the world are not really christians.

Since the scientific theory of 'evolution' contradicts or conflicts, depending on your delicate pick of words 'Eljay', with YOUR world view, or beliefs, or faith, or truth seeking experiment, 'evolution' becomes, as declared by YOU, a 'religion'.

YOU request proof!
YOU request that the world addresses YOUR capricious and insatiable PERSONAL FAITH BASED CONVICTIONS!

YOU are convinced about YOUR own convictions, beliefs, experiences. That is good for YOU 'Eljay'! And believe when I say that I am glad that YOU are confortable with YOUR own convictions. But you'll need to acknowledge that YOU are a religion of ONE 'Eljay'.

With the humility that I trust you might be able to muster, you'll have to realize that YOUR religion of ONE is supported by nothing other than YOUR personal experiences of ONE, which have no more credibility than the credibility it has for YOU, and have little to no importance above and beyond the personal experiences and convictions of anyoneONE else's.

The chrisitian world doesn't care much that you do not find it representative of christianity, and the scientific community, as well as the world at large, doesn't care much that you are convinced that 'evolution' is a reilgion. The world will go on without your convictions, and you have the absoulute privilege to hold on to them as you wish.

To make the EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM that

... the pope and 1,3 billion christians are not representative of christianity,

and,

... that the scientific rality of the theory of evolution is nothing more than a 'religion',

requires EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE, which YOU dear Eljay, with all your personal 'apologetic' studies, and personal biblical word pilgrimages, will never be in a position to establish.

The profound lack of crediblity, confusion, conflict, contradictions, mixed perspectives, EXTREME subjectivity, and just being ONE whom has faith which is founded on NO EVIDENCE, just like everyone else, should convince you to regroup, declare yourself whole and happy in your personal convictions, and leave these insane and unwinnable arguments alone, for the benefit of exchanges that might have a REAL chance of making a difference.

That was the point of my 'scope trial' post earlier:
'... How otherwise smart and articulate people whom could make a difference in the world, can come across as rather ingnorant and disingeneuous when hypnotized and posessed by dogma, which as a result, would throws them compulsively in endlessly waging 'LOST BATTLES'!!!...'

It really doesn't matter what you do personally. Christianity is a finger-pointing religion that denounces anyone who doesn't accept that the Bible is the word of God. And that's the bottom line. What you do personally is a moot point. The Bible is the book that claims that God hates heathens. If you disagree with that, then you disagree with the Biblical God. Period.



Clearly no problems have been solved by that. The world is apparently just as evil as it is today as it's ever been. The real TRUTH is that mankind is not the source of sin. The world was dog-eat-dog and filled with disease and death long before mankind ever came onto the scene. Jesus clearly did not solve anything. In fact, more atrocities have been carried out in Jesus name than in any other religion. So where you get the idea that Jesus solved any problems is beyond me. There's just no evidence for that at all.



Well, clearly you seem to be equating God with GOOD and anything that is 'Evil' is not God. So just look inside and try to find GOOD and you'll find God.

This is going by your own standards since you seem to equate GOOD with God and Evil with something other than God. I'm only going by what you seem to be obcessed with.



Well, you can't go by what any one particular group has to say. After all, you denounce Catholics as not being "Christians". I'm sure there are many Christian 'organizations' and churches that you'd disagree with. So just becasue you found a bunch of kooks who claim to be practicing Eastern based religions doesn't mean a thing. In fact this is a huge problem with religions in general. Any hardcore fundamentalist can stand up and claim to speak for Jesus holding a Bible in his hand and claiming that it denoucnes Gays, Evolution, "heathens" (or non-believers) and a host of other horrible things. So is that Christianity?

Clearly you have a huge problem if you're going to just use some religious group to be representative of a religion. You denounce that Catholics for Christ's sake! That's extremely arrogant of a protestant to do since Protestantism was based on the idea that no many can speak for God, yet you're claiming that Catholisim isn't representative of Jesus. Isn't that nothing more than claiming to be a self-appointed Pope who speaks for what is and isn't from Jesus?

I think your whole approach to religion is self-destructive.



As far as I'm concerned it's incorrect to call it a 'theory'. That's old hat. Sure there is a theory of evolution, but today we no longer need the theory because we have evidence. Today we can actually speak about the evidence of evolution. No theory required.

We still call Realtivity a 'Theory' too, but time dilation has been proven to occur in our universe, and atomic power plants, (not to meantion the bomb) have proven E=mc^2 too. Yet we still call it a 'theory'.

Well, it's the same way with evolution. The evidence is in. The facts are crystal clear that evolution occurred on this planet over billions of years. To continue to claim that it's "just a theory" is to ignore the facts.

That's an old cliché that simply isn't valid any longer. It's an utterly weak argument that is no longer applicable. The evidence is in and it's overwhelming. Life evolved on planet Earth. That's a fact. Reject it until you're blue in the face, but claiming that it's "Just a Theory" is truly outdated. Wake up and look at the EVIDENCE!

This is true.

I have no problem with your beliefs Eljay other than to say that I personally don't accept them.

You MAIN PREMISE appears to be that science is nothing more than faith-based conjecture.

I totally disagree with your premise, so I guess we're dead in the water at that point.

Also, when it comes to religion you're confusing because you speak of Jesus and the Bible but denounce Catholicism as not being "Christian".

You probably disagree with a lot of protestant fundamentalists as well, in fact you have indicated that you don't agree with much of what they have to say either.

So in-short, I have no idea what your 'religion' is all about. You'd have to write the King Eljay's version of the Bible and have it published so people can see your point of view.

Otherwise we're back to square one with just yet another individual Paper Pope trying to claim that his personal interpretation of scriptures represents TRUE Christianity.

But if that's true then our souls depend on seeking out Eljay's wisdom rather than the wisdom of the Holy Bible. Because we might MISINTERPRET IT! God forbid!

This is the problem with Protestantism. Everyone thinks that they are the only person in the world to hold the correct interpretation of the Bible.

You're just another example of how it can't possibly work as a WORLD RELIGION.

According to you all of Catholicism would need to convert to Eljay-ism in order to be saved by Christ. This is just another example of Christianity versus Christianity.

It's a religion that can't even get along with itself.

and as the Earth spins a full circle in 24 hours and around the sun in 365 days we contemplate what could have been or what could happen, yet we don't think of how we should be with one another.

Let us for the sake of any religion, life, or good will remember those who have sacrificed freedoms, so we can now have them as a people, to allow us to practice what we deem to be peaceful for our souls.

Let us appreciate the ability to love, cry, smile, think, argue, disaprove, agree, walk, talk, feel, smell, taste, and see as a gift to us.

May we encourage the importance of peace and show our children that it is the only solution for the survival of mankind.

The many people who spend time here on mingle2 are primarily lonely who seek somekind of attention. We should appreciate that each individual contributes in some way to make us feel important even if it is for just a second. Be thankful and greatful each and everyday.

This will be my last post here on Mingle2 for a different path has called me in a new direction and I thank everyone who has contributed in answering or replying to the many questions I have posted since I have joined.

May you live a prosperous, peaceful and loving life and most important of all "never give up!"

and as a gift I offer this song


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmcN7y7lRFM&feature=related

Sorry to see you go smiless. I've enjoyed your insightful and inspirational posts.

May you find peace and happiness in your life and continue to spread it to those around you.

Hate to see you go, realy.

And great song.

I dont really think there are two sides, with two extremes.

There are simply those that do not understand evolution.