'Eljay',

It would seem to me that you have missed the point of most of the posts that you address and to which you reply lately.

Transcripts from a courthouse are hardly 'gone with the wind' sourced. I can sense that you were attempting to mock my post, but please 'Eljay', 'gone with the wind'!?!?!?

As for missing the point alltogether, I choose not to humiliate you by explaining it.
I trust you have gotten the point, choose to ignore it, and privilege instead some 2 bit apologetic diversion.

P.S.: If you have genuinely missed the point of the post, I'll be glad to address it with you.

And I presume by your diatribe that you are an expert in ancient languages.

I love this line. You had a reasonable argument going until you blurted out this line. This is exactly what the entire christian faith does. This what is based on. Ignore the man behind the curtain. Don't use you powers of observation and logic just take our word that jesus lived and died and that there is a god. Don't investigate the bible just take someone elses word for it that it is accurate. I have studied the original languages, though I am far from an expert, there are many inaccuracies. Maybe not so much from one version to the next as they are written in their original languages, but many, many in their translations to modern languages.

This is SO TRUE!

The only reason that a Christian chooses to believe in the Bible is because they WANT it to be TRUE! That's why it's based on FAITH!

There is no rational reason to believe that it's true. Everything about the Bible is totally irrational.

A perfect all-powerful God is at war with a measly fallen angel who has no power or authority of his own other than what God GIVES HIM!

That's irrational

God created man in his own image, and then as an AFTERTHOUGHT he created woman from a rib of man?

That's irrational

Adam and Eve disobeyed God so God is going to hold countless billions of people throughout the generations responsible for having sinned against him.

That's irrational

All men are sinners, and there is NOTHING THEY CAN do on their own to correct their flaws, yet they are being HELD RESPONSIBLE by God for being in this predicament of HELPLESSNESS?

That's irrational

God is a male chuavinsist and insists that women should not speak out in public on important matters and they should be bought and sold in to Holy Matrimony?

That's irrational

For God so Hated the world that he flooded the entire Earth to rid it of sinners, but only after having some guy and his righteous family build a floating zoo to save breeding stock from the animal kingdom.

That's irrational

For God so Loved the world that he send his only begotten son to be cruficied for their sins to either appease his own lust for blood sacrifices, or to prove that that pathetic angel that he can indeed win a war against him.

That's irrational

The pathetic fallen angels KNOWS what God's plans are BEFORE God carries them out? That's what you must believe in order to sweep the fact that there were quite a few "Savior Stories" told in the Mediterranean region LONG BEFORE Jesus was ever born! And those stories contained the VERY SAME ELEMENTS, of being born of virgins, healing the sick, walking on water, turning water into wine, raising from the dead, etc, etc, etc.

To avoid recognizing that the Jesus Myth is just a repeat of those previoius mythologies, Christians MUST BELIEVE that Satan knows what God is going to do BEFORE God does it!

That's some SMART fallen angel!

That's irrational

You must believe that a God who first drowns out all of humanity for sinning, then turns around and sends his ownly begotten son to save it, and this God is supposed to be a stable dependable UNCHANGING God.

Yeah right.

That's irrational

Also, if Jesus existed prior to the flood "Before Abraham was I AM", then why wasn't he sent to save the people BEFORE the FLOOD?

That's irrational

I could go on and on and on. The Book of Job is irrational. It has Satan making a bet with God and God taking Satan up on the bet like as if God has something to PROVE to Satan!

That's irrational

And you believe all of this on unquestioned FAITH!

It can ONLY BE, because you WANT IT TO BE TRUE!

There is no rational reason beyond that.

Buy why?

Why are people so anxious to want to believe that God is a male chauvinists, who changes his mind about how he deals with humanities sin?

Why are people so anxious to beleive that they have all fallen from grace from their creator and that he had to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole to pay for their sins?

Why are people so desperate to believe in such horrible things?

Is is solely because the picture threatens eternal damnation to anyone who refuses to BELIEVE!

What kind of a God would use that as a standard to win his love?

That's irrational

Is is solely because people lust for the gift of eternal life that's being offered.

If that's true then they are lying when they say that the LOVE Christ. What they really LUST FOR is the free gift that he's offering.

In fact, I've heard many Christians say that if it came out that Jesus was not God they'd crucify him themselves! Why? Because that means that he has NOTHING TO OFFER THEM!

The only reason that Christians give Jesus the time of day is because he supposedly rose from the dead proving that resurrection is possible!

But the whole concept of 'resurrection' is absurd anyway!

People believe that we will all be 'resurrected' from our graves with our original phsyical bodies.

That's irrational

If there is a spirit world it's not going to have anything to do with being 'resurrected' in a physical body.

Besides, if with God all things are possible surely he'd give us all brand new bodies anyway.

Many Christians have told me that they can't wait to see Jesus when they get to heaven. They expect that he'll still be 30 years old, wearing a white robe & sandels, and have scars in the palms of his hand where spikes had been driving through during the crucifixion.

That's irrational

Even if Jesus did retain a physical body why should anyone think that he would still have scars? Have they no FAITH in his HEALING POWER?

The whole thing is totally irrational Eljay, and it's believed entirely on FAITH (which is just another way of saying that people believe it simply because they WANT to believe it an for no other reason)

Is't a WANT-Based belief.

Or a Faith-based belief if you prefer.

But there is nothing rational about it.

People believe it because they WANT it to be true.

Why? I have no clue. It's NOT a pretty picture of either mankind or God.

There is absolutely no rational reason to believe it, and there are a myriad of rational reasons to recognize that it's a totally made up mythology.

It's entirely a faith-based belief.

Want-based belief.

And I confess I don't want it. It's not a pretty picture. I'd rather atheism were true, but if I could have my wants I'd prefer pantheism.

(Shortened post)

Eljay wrote:




I am not "assuring" anything. It is just what I believe is true. It is well known that the Bible has been translated and transcribed in to many different languages with words having two or more meanings and that errors in some passages are crucial and can change the meaning drastically if interpretative incorrectly.

I think when you put your faith in the Bible you are also very obviously "taking the word of someone else as authority (on history and God) "-- not having any idea what their basing that authority on --" ..other than their desire to have people believe that the Bible is the "word of God" and is accurate and infallible.

As you stated:
"Wanting it to be so doesn't make it a reality."

You are the person who seems to want something to be so. I just want the truth, no matter what it is.

A religion based on "faith" and other people's authority (The Bible) is not proof enough for me in the first place, so I don't require proof that it is untrue. It has not proven itself to be true yet.

The first declaration you (and all fundamentalists) should ask themselves is why they believe that the Bible is the "word of God" and what authority told them this? The Bible? That is rather circular I think. God certainly did not tell you this unless you are claiming to speak to God directly.

And it was best said by Dr. House in the Episode "House vs. God" in the second season:
"No - you talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you - you're psychotic. "

If a book was a known history book and could be authenticated and sufficiently verified as such I would give that book a high ranking on my "convincing authority's" list.

But a book that claims to be or that people claim to be "The Word of God" must first define exactly who or what "God" is and then prove that God exists.

This is the bottom line why I think the Bible is discredited as anything that can claim to be the truth, even if some of the history in it seems accurate.

The Bible discredits itself by claiming to be "The Word of God" in the same way that David Icke discredits himself when he claims the existence of reptilian aliens simply because he cannot show any scientific proof of what he says.

So, I wonder why people who believe in God and the Bible are the first to laugh at me when I tell them that my belief in aliens is more logical.

Also the term "reptilian alien" is well defined and a I have a physical description of what they look like, and if I saw one I would know what I was seeing. Also my witnesses are still alive today and I have spoken directly to some of them who have been abducted!!

"God" is not well defined, there is no physical or other kind of definite or accepted and agreed upon descriptions of him and the witnesses are all dead who claim to have seen Jesus in the flesh.

Also, most people will tell you that nobody even knows what Jesus really looked like or what God might look like if they were to actually encounter these beings. So they (God and Jesus) could be and look like anything or everything.

So I choose to favor the explanation that makes more sense.

People mistook aliens for Gods long time ago.

Just to add to this, when you add up the number of other planets, solar systems, and galaxies out there. Statistics tells us that there will be other life-bearing planets out there.

This is so true!

There is absolutely no reason why I should believe that the Bible is the "word of God".

On the contrary, I can give a myriad of reasons why I feel that it can't possibly be the word of God. And in fact, I have given them time and time again on these very forums.

The idea that if someone doesn't believe in the Bible they are rejecting God is truly a ludicous idea.

In fact, the very idea that God would reject someone just because they don't believe that the Bible is the word of God it truly insane.

I've said it many times. The religion is a train-wreck. It started out supposedly being about a God who cared how people behave and it ended up being about a God who will cast anyone into hell simply because they don't believe that a particular book is the word of God.

I think the religion clearly deteriorated from something that was supposed to be about morals to nothing more than a bunch of authors claiming. "If you don't believe in OUR VERSION of God you'll be sent to HELL!"

Cleraly that's a human temper tantrum and has nothing to do with any God.

Why would anyone believe that the creator of this universe is as jealous and as immature as teenager on steroids and testosterone?

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that the divine creator of this universe should be as ignorant as the Bible makes God out to be.

I think the book is an insult to all that's divine.

It's an insult to both humanity and divinity.

There is absolultey no rational reason to believe that it represents the word of any divine being. It's just plain not divine. Period.

I don't believe that the an all-wise supreme being couldn't come up with a better solution to his problems than to have his son nailed to a pole to a pole to PAY for the sins of man.

That's LUDICOUS!

Who would have been PAID for those sins? God?

Does it thrill God to see his son slaughtered on a pole?

Was it done to APPEASE SATAN? Does God need to PROVE something to a fallen angel?

What PURPOSE would it serve?

It's insane!

If with God all things are possible, then God could have just forgiven man his sins simply becasue he WANTED to do that. The idea that God would NEED to have his "only begotten son" (how quaint) nailed to a pole before he could forgive man his sins is an utterly insane idea.

In order for me to believe that the Bible is the word of our creator I'd first need to believe that our creator is a lunatic!

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that the Bible is the word of any God. It appears to me to be nothing more than a fable made up by men to try to scare people into fearing the CHURCH.

Now THAT MAKES SENSE!

The idea that the book is actually the divine word of an all-wise all-powerful supreme being who at war with a pathetically powerless fallen angel makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

That's my conclusion.

It makes me want to throw up when people claim that this book is the "word of God". That's an insult to the very concept of God.

There is no reason to continue this argument. But it's been fun folks!

Just try to learn to love each other. That's all that is necessary for true redemption. .

From what I have read on this specific Forum here is what I can get. Just like Far Leftist and Far Right in politics there groups of people that are not set in there beliefs and are not going to in anyway what-so-ever going to change, and are ignorant to the view of the other side because quite frankly they don't care what the other side thinks because in their mind the know they are right and no one can tell them different. This bigotry causes hatred led slurs to be flow from one side two the next. I believe the side that comes out on top is the one that is going to be able to show those that are undecided in the middle that there side can hold a civil and responsible debate and prove there point with facts and reasoning that makes sense. Much like the last election turned out to be an almost landslide victory for Obama because he decided not to have his campaign ran not on hatred of the other guys but peace with in those who came to his side, I believe the people will choose what they want to believe in.

Damned lefists --er wait am I left or right? Better be safe -- damned rightists.

I am an above-ist. I watch down with pity.

The way I see there aren't really two sides. There is only one side. The proselytizers.

You have Christians versus "Non-Christians".

How many religions are mentioned in that sentence?

And the reason there are always arguments is because the Christians are always proselytizing their religion trying to claim that their doctrine is the word of God and trying to sell this idea to other people.

This would be like a Vacuum Cleaner salesman going door to do trying to sell tell eveyone that they need a vacuum cleaner. The people argue that they already have one, or that they are happy using their traditional broom.

The Vacuum Cleaner salesman demands that he can prove that his model of vacuum cleaner is better. So the argument begins.

The people who don't want the Vacuum Cleaner point out all the reasons why the product isn't all it's knocked up to be. The Vacuum Saleman gets upset that people are 'bashing' his product. But all they are really trying to do is explain why they aren't interested in buying it.

This truly is a perfect analogy, because the only reason the people argue against Christianity is because it's constantly being proselytized as the "word of God", so people try to explain why they don't feel that it is the 'word of God'.

If Christians would stop proseltyizing their religion the whole Christian versus "non-Christian" thing would disappear.

Because like I say, there's only ONE RELIGION in that sentence!

The constant relentless and endless claim of the Christians that the Bible is the "word of God" is the source of all this evil.

And that might apply to Judaism and Islam too to some extent because both of those religions are also based on the premise of a jealous God who supposedly said, "Thou shalt not have any other God's before me!"

But ironically the Christians are the worst using Jesus as their battering Ram. Reject Jesus and Jesus will have you sent to hell! You can't be a righteous person and not recognize that Jesus is God!

And the real irony of it all is that the Protestants are the most vehement proselytizers demanding that the Bible must be interpreted precisely how THEY SEE IT. The total irony in that is that Protestantism is actually based on the protest that no mortal man should be able to claim a correct interpretation of the "Holy Scriptures" yet the Protestants have evolved to become the most vehement about pushing their interpretations in the Name of Christ.

It's truly a religion gone askew.

It's the proselytizing that makes it so obnoxious. If there were some way to get them to stop proselytizing then the problem would go away and the religious world could finally live PEACE.

And I'm just speaking the truth here. Proselytizing it the problem. When they proselytize that Jesus is God and the Bible is the word of God, that's really no different than tell everyone else that their deities and doctrines are WRONG.

So by their very act of proseltyzing they are indeed 'bashing' eveyone else's beliefs. In fact, by proselytizing Jesus they are even 'bashing' Judaism and Islam. By denouning evolution they are 'bashing' Catholicism which has already accepted evolution.

So again it just those rebellious Protestants who protest against the whole rest of the world that's the root of the problem.

It's always "Christian versus Non-Christians", and the Christians who proselytize the loudest are those rebel Protestants. How often do we see a Catholic doing this. No Catholic would denounce evolution because their Pope has already accepted it.

It's just those rebel Protestants who demand that THEY SPEAK FOR GOD, even though that flies in the very face of what they originally protested about.

The world is truly a crazy place folks.

This is so true. The Christians that do this don't even realize that when they make these unproven claims that there way is the only 'right' way to find God, they are in a sense telling you that you are wrong. Then they pretend innocence and claim that they are bound with the obligation to 'spread the good news' to those poor lost souls who have not heard about Jesus and how to have salvation.

I bet you would have to be living in cave in some third world country to have not have heard about Jesus.

Let me be direct here. WE HAVE HEARD.

That's the bottom line right there.

There aren't spreading the word for Jesus sake when they are arguing with people who have actually been Christians and who have studied the religion extensively and concluded that it can't be from a divine source.

Like Voileazur had pointed out before, this kind of "argumentative proselytizing" is nothing more than using Jesus as the basis for an power ego trip.

That's all it can be at that point.

I meant to type "Inherit the Wind" - my bad. In the early hours I get rather dislexic.

Actually - I don't see the point of your post. I hardly think that the "Scopes Trial" deals with anything other than a Subjective opinion about evolution - as it did nothing to demonstrate or add to the facts of evolution that to this day cannot be demonstrated beyond the majority conjecture of scientists. Perhaps you've missed my point Voile. I don't find it any more legitimate of Christains to claim that the bible is supported by science - than I do evolutionists. In order to "believe" the science - one must have faith in the conjecture of the scientists. For instance.

The absolute claim that there was no flood is crucial to the suppositions of Evolution. While I cannot definitively claim - nor would I attempt to - that the biblical flood did occur, I think it's wishful thinking to claim with any certainty that it did not. You and I can stand at the precipice of the Grand Canyon and see the same thing. But we'd be talking ourselves in circles if we attempted to "explain" what the cause of it was. Our "belief" of what caused that grewat phenmina would be predicated on our world view and the faith that we have in it - and no "expert" or "scientist" is going to provide "evidence" to the contrary. All they are going to do is attempt to convince one that their presumption has validity because of extrapolation of "similar" occurances in which someone else has observed - and documented. A highly sceptical representation of the truth - as has been demonstrated to me numerous times on this thread as it relates to the authors of scripture. Eye witness acounts are UNRELIABLE. Period. It matters not what the particular account may be about - because - once again - belief in documentation falls into the catagory of WORLD VIEW. If one's faith is in the Judeo/Christain God - the biblical authors have no reason to be doubted. If your world view differs from that - the gospel writers must be incorrect.

So - just what exactly is the point you are trying to get me to see?

But it doesn't change the argument. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the number of times it has been posted that people just don't want the bible to be true. Check a few dozen of Abra's posts - he's not kept this a secret. And I don't understand what makes you think that someone who believes in the bible hasn't investigated it. I take exceptin to that presumption of yours - as I've spent over 30 years investigating the bible - both from the vantage point of pro, and con. I'd be quite surprised if you could say you've done the same. I have actually found that in my experience of discussing the bible with people - that the vast majority of people who think it is a myth, haven't even read it. And the number is an overwhelming majority. It is more of a rarety to meet someone who outright rejects the bible - that has even read just the entire New Testament.

How about you? Where do you fit in this picture? Have you read the entire New Testament? The whole bible?

That's an oxymoronic statement right there. The very fact that you've put FAITH in that picture is what prevents you from doubting it.



This is also a total farce. It's true that today AFTER all my studies and realizations I would not want the Bible to be true. Why should I? If you believe in what the Bible says it's about a God who cast countless INNOCENT people into an eternal hell fire. It's about a God who places BETS with a supposedly demonic angel where human souls are the poker chips! It's about a God who is mean to people who supposedly already love him and are already his LOYAL SERVANTS. To believe in the Bible you truly need to believe that God is so egoistically hung up on TESTING whether or not people LOVE HIM that's it can't be described as anything other than truly SICK.

Not to mention the FACT that according to the religion overall, God is supposed to already KNOW what's in our hearts and there is NOTHING we can hide from God!

Can't you see the oxymoronic situation here? A God who is supposed to KNOW what's in your heart and yet he doesn't TRUST anyone?

But this wasn't the REASON that I gave up on the Bible. Actually back when I rejected it I WANTED to believe it! I didn't think about all these gory details at that time. It was my intention to TEACH IT!

So you are way off base trying to portray me as a skeptic who never wanted to believe it. That's simply a completely fabrication on your part and you even KNOW IT. You've heard my history before, to try and portray me now as someone who never wanted the Bible to be true is downright deception and nothing short of dishonest.

Originally I wanted the Bible to be truth, moreover I BELIEVED it was true! But that was BEFORE I READ IT!

Yes, let's face it, it's NOT IMPORTANT to read the Bible to become a Christian. In fact MOST Christians have no clue what's even in the Bible. They just accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and go on their merry way. If they do read the Bible they DON'T QUESTION IT, then just say, "Well God must have his reasons, he knows best".

But I wanted to TEACH the Bible! Telling people "Well God must have his reasons" every time someone asks me to explain something did not cut it for me. Besides people are always saying that the Bible contains ANSWERS to every question. Welll, surely if that's true then it must contain answer to questions that people might normally ask.

The TRUTH it that it DOESN'T. That's the TRUTH.

No one can even tell you why God can't forgive people unless they've butchered an animals. IT DOESN'T SAY in the Bible why God is APPEASED by blood sacrifices. Now that's a question that should be explained.

I can explain it! It's because the authors weren't even being ORIGINAL when they made it up. It's no different than any other Mediterranean Mythologies.

Also, there's the issue of why the "Jesus Story" was told hundreds of years before Jesus was born in so MANY different forms. The people who WANT the Bible to be true are trying to claim that the Devil had people make up these stories so that modern generations would see this and think that it's just a plagiarized myth. But that would mean TWO THINGS. First, it implies that Satan knows what God is going to do BEFORE God does it, and secondly it implies that God never KNEW that Satan had done that since he never bothered mentioning in the Bible that those stories existed.

The only reason I take about not WANTING the Bible to be true is when people come at me from the point of view of pure FAITH. Why would anyone WANT the biblical story to be true?

Why would you WANT it to be true? The story claims that all of humanity fell from grace from our creator and that he had to have his son slaughtered just to save our totally UNWORTHY butts. Why would anyone WANT such a story to be true?

I think clearly any SANE person would be truly saddened if the Bible IS TRUE. There most certainly is nothing to 'Rejoice" about if it were true. If Jesus had to die on the Cross it's YOUR FAULT! That's what the Bible is saying!

Why would you want to that to be TRUE ON PURE FAITH? That's a faith issue, that you have never addressed in all the times that I've asked it?

Why do you WANT it to be true that you've failed your creator and he had to have his son brutally murdered and publicly humiliated to SAVE your butt?

Why would you WANT that to be true?

And would you be disappointed if you discovered that it wasn't true?

If you found out today in no uncertain terms that the Bible is entirely made up by man would you be disappointed? If so why? Do you like the idea that a God had to have his son butchered to pay for your sinful ways?

And if you don't like that picture then why believe it on PURE FAITH ALONE?

Why fight so hard to support such an ugly picture of not only man, but of God as well?

Surely you can see that MAJOR PROBLEM with the WHOLE PICTURE.

You supposedly have an ALL-PERFECT creator creating a PERFECT world and then sin miraculously comes into this picture from NOWHERE!

That's absurd already. If there was a perfect creator that created an imperfect universe he'd have no one to blame but himself. The idea that it's because he gave people FREE WILL just doesn't cut it. Giving people FREE WILL doesn't automatically create evil.

In fact, if God's heaven was supposed to be PERFECT then why did a fully their of God's angels not like it?

Clearly it must not have been PERFECT from their point of view. So now we're struck with a 'subjectively perfect' heaven that some people think is perfect and others do not. There can be no such things as ABSOLUTE PERFECTION if we have so many angels disagreeing that it's PERFECT.

The whole story is an oxymoronic story Eljay. Trying to discredit people who recognize this by trying to claim that it's just because they don't want it to be true is truly a dishonest tactic.

To the people who are interested in REASON I hold that the Bible and the Biblical God is UNREASONABLE. Therefore if we are to believe in the Bible we must believe that God is UNREASONABLE.

When reading the Bible all we need to do is ask ourselves the following two questions?

1. Would a truly all-wise, loving God have written or done the things the Bible claims?

2. Would men who are trying to put fear into their readers make this stuff up?

When I do that I find myself answering NO to the first question constantly, and YES to the second question all the time. So which question is more likely to be true based on REASON?

To the people who claim that we must have FAITH, I say the following:

Why would I want to have FAITH that our creator is at war with a measly fallen angel? Why would I want to have FAITH that all of mankind has fallen from grace from God? Why would I want to have FAITH that the only way to obtain the LOVE of this God is to believe that he had his son slaughtered on a pole to pay for my pathetic rebellious behavior? Why would I want to have FAITH that if I can't find the story believable this God will cast me into a pit of eternal damnation even though I'm actually a good person but just couldn't buy into this horror story?

Why would I want to have FAITH that God is UNREASONABLE?

Yes, you are right about that. Now that I look at this unreasonable book in GREAT DETAIL for over 40 years of LIFE, I've come to the final conclusion that I don't want it to be True. It's a horror story about a God who will send innocent people to hell just because they refuse to believe that God is an insane madman who's at war with a fallen angel, and keeps changing his mind about how he wants to deal with humanity (i.e. one moment he's flushing them away in a global flood, and the next moment he's having his son nailed to a pole so he can forgive them their sins).

Hey, as far as I'm concerned BOTH of those solutions to his problems are EQUALLY SICK!

This is a story about a supposedly FATHER IMAGE God who has failed MISERABLY as a father and now he's taking it all out on his children. If he were a human being he's be in jail on child abuse charges.

And you expect me to accept this story ON PURE FAITH when there is NO REASONABLE reason to believe it?

That's crazy. The story is as absurd as Greek Mythology if not more absurd. Yet you don't seem to have any problem at all chalking Zeus off as a lost cause.

Why do you cling to this absurd picture when it's basically proven itself to be anything but divine.

In general, I would say that belief in anything carries with it a certain amount of faith. Faith in ourselves for simply being able to reason out a path of logic that says "Sure, I can see that."

It is when the things that we observe start to contradict that flow of logic - that one loses their faith in it being a representation of "truth". Generally - one holds onto a belief system based on what they read, or hear. For example - every child in High School biology thinks that the world is 4.5 billion years old. Why is that? Because that is what the texts tell them, and the teachers reinforce it. It doesn't matter what the "truth" might be - their faith is in the honesty of the teachers and the editors of the texts.
What school kid would ever believe a teacher would lie to them? The same holds true for those who stand in the pulpets of religions. They blindly believe what the priest or pastor tells them because they have no expectation of deciet. How many Catholics take the decree's of the Pope as though they were coming directly from God?

I think that the idea of "fundamentalists" holds true for more than just those who hold fast to the literal interpretation of the bible. I'd say one of the worlds leading "Fundamentalists" is Richard Dawkins. How is he any different than the Jerry Falwells or Oral roberts' of the world. Their beliefs and methods parellel each other - it's just the world view that differes.

How is one's belief in Evolution any different than another's belief in the bible?

Well, I don't know about you but I asked questions and never took anything the teachers told me as truth just because they said so.

The FACT is that if you ask how they KNOW that the earth is 4.5 billion years old they will explain to you in great depth how they know that it's TRUE.

The scientific evidence is overwhelming. It comes not only from methods of dating ancient rocks, but it comes from the observations of how geological processes unfold on the Earth. It's also verified by astronomical observations of how solar systems form.

It's also verified by the processes of nuclear physics and how the sun works, and they clearly have that down pat beyond any shadow of a doubt.

You can rest assurded that the Earth is indeed 4.5 billion years old. And if you question it all you need to do is study all the difference sciences and see how they arrived at their conclusions.

In order to reject the evidence you'd basically have to denounce all of science and REASON. Either that or claim that God made the universe to purposefully decieve us. But then you'd be suggesting that God is decietful.

To claim that science is a mere faith-based method of inquiry is truly ludicuous Eljay. I can't believe that you could even suggest such a thing.

And this comes from someone who's trying to sell a truly absurd picture of a God that has NO PROOF of DIVINE CONNECTIONS WHATSOEVER?

You can believe in unseen angels with wings. Demons with pointy tails that are at war with God. A God who supposedly inspiried a male chuavinistic book both throughout the Old Testament and then again though Paul in the New Testament?

A God who supposedly had a son who DISAGREE with his previous teachings?

All this is based on what? A book that was written by Isaelites and was clearly focused on having God be on THEIR side in all their wars and rejecting all other nations as HEATHENS?

Oh please.

And you still have never even addressed the question of why you would even WANT to put your FAITH in such a crazy picture of a jealous God who hates non-believers and will cast them into hell and had to have his son butchered on a pole to pay for YOUR willfull disobedience toward him.

Surely since you are so vehement about placing faith in this story you could come up with a reason why a person should WANT it to be true?

Why should we want to believe that we are at odds with our creator and that he had to have his son slaughtered to pay for our WILLFUL disobedience of him?

I don't even feel that I've been WILLFULLY disobedient to God so the idea that he had to have his son nailed to a pole for MY SAKE makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me, much less be something that I'd WANT to believe on pure faith when the evidence against it being true is totally overwhelming.

Why should I WANT to have FAITH in this picture?

And if I don't WANT to have FAITH in it, then what other reason could their be to put my FAITH in it?

It's got to be a WANT-based religion. Unless you're just scared to death that it MIGHT be true and you're cowering down to the threat that if you don't put your FAITH in it you'll be eternally PUNISHED.

But that would just be to confess that you worship it out of FEAR and not FAITH at all.