Belief is faith, not fact.
Beliefs and faith only exist when FACTS do not apply. A simple and straight forward paradox that some humans have been dealing with for a long time. However, like most things, some humans refuse or simply ignore the fundamental paradox.

Those whom ingnore the FAITH/FACT paradox, insist on confusing and deceiving, rather than honoring the fundamental truth of the FAITH/FACT paradox.

More specifically, one whom believes in ‘bible inerrancy’ personally cannot logically and rationally expect to actually have ‘bible inerrancy’ to turn out to be true in real life. It is a BELIEF.
It is not founded in FACTS.
It is not founded in the dimension of verifiable reality.

It strictly belongs to the FACTLESS, UNPROVABLE, AND UN DEFINABLE domain of our reality as humans.

That domain is referred to as the SUPERNATURAL!!!

You see!!! SUPERNATURAL!!!

Supra: BEYOND nature, BEYOND what is verifiable, BEYOND what is testable, BEYOND SCIENCE!!!

To invest one’s life in thinking-up desperate schemes to link one’s faith and beliefs to a NATURAL REALITY, as opposed to the SUPERNATURAL REALITY to which beliefs and faith belong, is committing oneself to a project of deceit.

To confuse oneself in believing that the words in a book, on which one bases his faith and beliefs, could actually mutate to a smokey concept of

… FAITH MUTATING INTO believed-REAL BIBLE-INERRANCY’, to
… ITSELF MUTATING INTO believed-REAL CREATIONISTIC PREMISE FOR EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE,
… ITSELF MUTATING INTO believed-REAL INTELLIGENT DESIGN
… AND INTELLIGENT DESIGN ABOUT TO MUTATE DUE TO ITS ANNOUNCED EXTINCTION,

IS THE PROOF RIGHT THERE OF THE THOERY OF EVOLUTION!!!

But to call any part of a belief, or part of your faith, however you might disguise it into a form of reality for yourself, to call any of that REAL, or PART OF THE NATURAL, or SCIENTIFIC, IS NOTHING OTHER THAN DECEITFUL.

The debate that some have been holding, which has been opposing Evolution and Creationism is dead. There no sane debate that can be held without respecting critical thinking, and rational thought. Committing such an obvious crime in rational or critical tought, as the one that confuses FAITH AND FATS, is in itself enough to declare 'Evo-Crea' a NON-DEBATE.

The real debate, and there is one, deals with decomposition, or facing the breaking down of the profound deceit of ‘creationism’, and its bible-inerrant ‘common ancestors’.

It squarely begs the need to address the havoc that is caused, in all of humanity’s history, when humans have delusionally deceived themselves and others, by confusing their personal FAITH with FACT!!!

I strongly invite you to visit this extraordinary link which was provided by ‘Lynann’ and ‘Bushidobillyclub’ in related threads: ‘http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

It goes a long way in clarifying the FAITH/FACT confusion and deceit.

Also, catch anything 'Ken Miller'. A renowned Cell Biologist, a devout Christian, and an expert spokesperson for the scientific community in the ‘creationism’ debacle.

Let me pour you a fine cognac and one for myself also and salute to (facts and faith) and that there will be a possible solution between the two that finds peace amongst the human race

My beliefs give me the right to decieve.

Courvoisier!!! My favorite!

Thanks 'Smiless', and here's to a simultaneous LUCID in FACT, and GRACEFULL in FAITH human race.

I invite you to catch anything 'Ken Miller', and highly recommend your might start by visiting this extraordinary link which was provided by ‘Lynann’ and ‘Bushidobillyclub’ in related threads: ‘http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

The contents of that link alone could pave the foundation of a 'rapprochement' between the two camps by powerfully putting things in perspective.

I thank you dearly for the link as I will look at it. I am currently reading a book from Richard Dawkin's called "The Ancestory's Tale. It is a great read and will share my insight on it one day once I have completed the book.

May there always be a full glass of Courvesier in your glass available

Well then, you're obviously not one of us, and must be a SUPERNATURAL entity!!!

... but then again, if you are a supernatural entity, what need do you have of beliefs, and why would want to use them to deceive?!?!?!

Out, out, woush woush, out of here fake human and false entity!!!

I couldn't agree with you more on this issue of faith.

So why this non-sense that Evolution (macro "porked" onto micro) is scientific, factual and obsevable?

Here, let's take the Big Bang. We know the universe is expanding. Obsevable fact thanks to Mr Hubble. But beyond that?... They say life evolved from the materials in a star. Do you believe they have broken down a star in the laboratory!!! Where does this fit on our "Faith-o-meter"?

Dating Method's. Do you realize that to have any accuracy in dating that it must be under a controlled unchanging environment. Therefore - one MUST preune the FLOOD did NOT occur. How does one prove that? Where does "Dating fit on the "faith-o-meter" scale.

Human's and Apes evolved from a "common ancester".
Sure. Where is the "Evolutionary Eve" with the DNA to support this claim?

Voile - I equate this on the "Faith-o-meter" with the Resurrection. The evidence for both balance the scale of truth.

And don't send me to a U-tube presentation by an evolutionary biologist attempting to demonstrate to me that evolution is true. He'd be an idiot if the video were demonstrating it was false, else I doubt he's be an evolutionary biologist any more. I would prefer you check out the U-tube presentations from Answers from Genesis and refute them. I'd be more apt to find that believable than a Pro-evolution film by an evolutionist.

Evolution affects and deals with the natural dimension of our lives.

We have little option but to deal, debate head-on and remain lucid with the natural dimension of our lives.

To confuse that as you do by, shoving aside the Ken Miller tube dealing with the natural issue in a natural perspective, and shoving me right over to visit a 'Answer from Genesis' instead, which belongs to the religious-faith supernatural side of the equation, is exactly the insane hook I'm addressing here.

You and I have no options dealing with the natural dimensions of our existence. Try not breathing for more than 3-4 minutes!!!

On the other hand, you and I have total freedom and unlimited personal options to believe or not believe, in our personal belief of personal choice, without any consequences on our ethical, or natural, or even supernatural existence.

You believe in Genesis 'et all', and that is a right and freedom you have, which I respect.

I do not share that belief with you. And yet someone else might, and it still wouldn't have any bearing on evolution. I happen to believe in something that is totally incompatible with genesis, or the bible. But I have no intention of convincing you of my beliefs. And while I respect your right to believe in Genesis, I have a real problem when you travestize that belief into a false-fact, which then profoundly interferes with OUR NATURAL DIMENSION.

It's belief on pure faith.
... Not extrapolation,
... not factual extension: 'if when pregnant women give birth, whether or not men might feel pregnant, they will not give birth,
... not verifiable association: if you were in fact 'somewhere' at a specific time, you weren't elsewhere at that exact same time.

Believing or not in Genesis in the exact manner that YOU do 'ELJAY', will not have any impact on our natural world, and even less so on the theory of evolution.

As a matter of FACT, let's assume for a moment that you win!!!
That you are right right, and win total 'consensus of belief' in Genesis right now, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE believes just like you 'eljay',

'... ARE TELLING ME THIS WILL CHANGE AN IOTA ABOUT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION!?!?!?'

Let's get real 'eljay', FAITH is to be graceful and respected. When one tries to transform FAITH into FACT, it is a formidable REDUCTION act, touching everyone, and doing a great disservice to FAITH itself. I am very sincere with 'Eljay' and would hope that you could reciprocate.

Evolution need not be the life long battle of any christian.

As a matter of fact, all christians should give up 'battling'!!!

It is squarely against everything that Jesus taught.

You've truly got to be joking with this one Eljay.

If you believe that the overwhelming evidence for evolution is on the same level with the absolute total lack of any evidence for the Resurrection then you are truly clueless.

There is absolutely no evidence for the Resurrection whatsoever. None. Zip. Zilch.

The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, in fossil records, in geological records, in astromical observations, in physics, in chemsitry and in biology.

All the sciences have hard physical evidence that all point to the same conclusion.

You say:



This is truly naive and shows an overwhelming ignorance of science.

Have they broken down stars in the lab? For all intents and purposes YES THEY HAVE!

We have harnessed the power of the stars in controlled reactions called Nuclear Power Plants. We have Nuclear powered submarines, and of course we're all familiar with the A-bomb, and the H-bomb.

I'd say that scientists have the physics of stars down pat. They have our sun figured out beyond your wildest imagination. I could tell you a story about that but it would be a waste of time typing it in because you aren't interested in truth.

All you want to do is try to claim that it makes just as much sense to beleive that some divine being had himself nailed to a pole just so he could rise from the dead and show everyone the power of his magic.

In all honesty Eljay that's a truly absurd story to begin with. The idea that a God who would play such ignorant games with decent human beings is truly a disgusting thought. Such a being would hardly be divine.

Just stop and think about what the implication of such a God would be.

Here you have a God who is supposedly all-knowing and can do anything and what does he choose to do? PLAY GUESSING GAMES!

That doesn't even make any sense. Yet you would like to believe it in the face of ZERO evidence!

Why anyone would choose to believe such an absurd story of a God based on ZERO evidence is beyond me.

voileazur well said indeed!




________________
This far into your post and already you are making parallels that do not hold to any sense of logic.

Is the big bang theory about evolution?

Is evolution theory about the big bang?

Does one say ANYTHING about the other?

No.

Does something not being observable make it not scientific?

No.

More dishonesty even if with yourself.

HERE IS A FACT FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!


THERE IS NOT NOT NOT

ONE SINGLE TEENY WEENY TINY

SHRED OF EVIDENCE

THAT PROVES OR SUPPORTS,


ANY SPECIES IN EXISTENCE

AS HAVING

EVER EVER EVER

TRANSCENDED ITS BOUNDARIES...

AND

BECOMING ANOTHER WHOLE DIFFERENT SPECIES!!!!!!!

NEVER HAPPENED.......NEVER WILL!!!!!


THAT'S FACT FOR YOU, VOIL!!!!!!!


AND BTW....ALL THESE WEBSITES MENTIONED ON HERE...

AND I MEAN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF
THEM......

STILL DO NOT PROVE MACROEVOLUTION TO BE TRUE....

BUT ALL OF THEM SHOW

ONLY ONLY ONY MICROEVOLUTION TAKING PLACE WITHIN A SPECIES !!!!

MICRO.......NOT MACRO!!!!

WHICH WE BIBLE BELIEVERS(PEOPLE OF FAITH) HAVE BEEN AGREEING WITH ALL ALONG.


BUT THERE ARE NO FACTS WHATSOEVER...

AND I MEAN NONE....NADA...

TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM THAT MACROEVOLUTION IS TRUE!!!


AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

THERE WILL NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER

BE ANY FACTS FOUND....

TO SUPPORT AND PROVE MACROEVOLUTION TO BE TRUE !!!


CAUSE GOD SAID,

" EVERYTHING ... REPRODUCES ...

AFTER ..IT'S.. OWN.. KIND" !!!!

ONLY!!!!


NOW.....

IF EVOLUTIONISTS WOULD JUST COME TO THEIR SENSES.....

AND PAY ATTENTION FOR ONCE....

TO WHAT GOD'S WORD HAS TO SAY ,

THEN THEY COULD

APPLY THE WORD TO THEIR RESEARCH.....


AND FINALLY FIND

SOME LONG SOUGHT AFTER ANSWERS FOR ONCE ....

REAL ANSWERS....THAT HAS BEEN PASSING THEM BY UP TO NOW!!!

NOW WOULDN'T THAT BE ONE HECK OF A GRAND MIRACLE IN ITSELF....

IF EVOLUTIONISTS WOULD FINALLY START DOING THAT?!!!!

MorningSong,

Creationism was the theory 2000 years ago because people didn't know then what we know now. They merely found an explanation for things they couldn't understand otherwise.
But now it is OUTDATED
Perhaps you should try to educate yourself about it instead of just reading what you want to see and then run with it whether it is true or not.

You are trying to spread a blatant lie.
It might be your truth, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Invisible..no one will believe ...or is even ABLE to believe .....EXCEPT the Holy Spirit DRAW him.

Meaning..I can't make NO one believe.
Not my job.


What I was trying to suggest in my earlier post here , is this :

When it comes to all these great minds looking for answers ,
as to man's origin....

why not look into the bible ALSO...

and at least read the bible as a history book...even if one doesn't yet believe.


Point being....If evolutionists want answers...check out ALL sources of info out there.

Wouldn't that be the LOGICAL APPROACH?

Logic would say.....hmmm.... here's a bible......

a book that's been around and has lasted a long time.....

hmmm....maybe there is something in that book.....

so....

lets check it out and see what it has to say!!!

That's called LOGICAL THINKING!!!


I mean.....not only is the bible the divinely inspired Word of God

(which no one has to believe if one doesn't want to...
cause no one is forcing anyone to believe)....

the bible ALSO contains within its pages,

a rich LEGACY that tells us ALSO about MAN'S PAST...MAN'S ORIGIN!!!!


I mean.....

Why CHECK OUT and believe everything else out there....

BUT........

NEGLECT and REJECT what is contained in the WORD of GOD !!!

So again....the Point I'm trying to get across is.....

Check out the BIBLE also....

Cause....

The Bible is also a HISTORY BOOK!!!

Morningsong,

Presenting the 2000+ year old 'book' as NEWS is pretty funny, I have to admit.

Unfortunately, the 'book' is EVERYTHING BUT NEWS!!!

If anything, it has been overmediatized for the past 2000 years.

Devout christians whom know and respect the 'book' every bit as much as you Morningsong, and distinguish FAITH (beliefs) and FACTS (science) powerfully, counter argue every single point, including the infamous macro, micro delusion from the creationist camp!!!

Creationists have nothing to add. Nothing to counteract with.

There is no such argument as the Micro vs Macro evolution, that could be ever demonstrated and supported by the creationists. Your camp of experts have failed to make their point. THE POINT IS DEAD.

Asking for 'missing proof' will never end for those whom do not consider the already overwhelming proof on the table.

Here is an analogy Ken Miller, a devout chistian, and renowned cell biologist offers:

'... you Morningsong, would try and trace back your ancestors. Based on the kind of 'proof' you are asking Morningsong, I bet you anything you will not get past the 4th or 5th level of ancestry, if that.

The fact that you do not find EVIDENCE for every single one of your relative ancestors, will never, ever, amount to the conclusion that you have no ancestry.

It simply means you haven't got evidence for every single ancestor that you do HAVE!!!

The kind of proof for which you are asking, points to nothing other than a negative argumentation.

People whom do not distinguish FACT and FAITH, start into the exploratory conversation with a dogmatic conclusion in hand, no substance whatsoever, and their sole purpose becomes to destroy the other point of view by raising doubt, and spreading confusion around the issue.

Think Morningsong!!!

Let's paint your dream picture here:

'... You succeed in convincing the whole world, that evolution (micro, macro, whatever) is WRONG and NULL!!!

CONGRATULATIONS Morningsong, you won!!!

You have singlehandedly DEBUNKED and negatively argued (a first in the history of humanity) THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.

But Morningsong, after collecting your Nobel for humanitarian heroism, the whole process wouldn't have gotten you an inch closer to 'PROVING', THE 'AS OF NOW', TOTALLY UNSUBSTANTIATED NOTION OF CREATIONISM.

There exists today, NO BASIS WHATSOEVER FOR THE CREATIONISTS CLAIM !!!

Negating the one to death, does not by default install your fantasy of choice as FACT. That is profound deceit.

Your being lead down the yellow brick road on that one Morningsong.

The western world is fully aware of the bible, and it clear that it serves absolutely no purpose in the domain of FACT, just as science serves no purpose in the domain of FAITH.

There is lots of evidence for macro evolution.

You just choose to not read it, or fail to understand it. It has all been presented before. It is in fact presented in that nova series.

It is incredible damming evidence if one was at trial, which was exactly what happened.

Look you can stick your head in the sand, but if we where trying to prove a murder, and that murder was macro evolution, macro evolution would be in jail NOW.

Your really showing yourself for the fool in saying there is no evidence, not one single teeny tiny shred, becuase there is a whole lot more then that.

Imagine FAITH and FACT as you would two different languages.

Nothing wrong with either language.

Speaking chinese with other people whom speak chinese, is as effective as doing so in english.

Sometimes, when one has no knowledge of chinese, but is interested in visiting China, learning the language, or using the services of an interpreter are options, such that 'understanding' can take place.

Now, imagine someone, whom only speaks english, barges in on China, and would get all upset ad complain that Chinese people are all wrong, and must learn a manner of speaking such that they can be understood.

In this FAITH - FACT thread, FAITH barges in on science (totally uninvited), and imposes its faith based code or language, and is shocked to find that it is asked to 'speak' science, if it wishes to 'attack' science (they don't mind being 'attacked'. Just do it in science talk). In the end, insisting to 'speak' FAITH in a context of FACT, only 'creates' confusion.

Let's all get real. Incompatible 'languages', or perspectives, as is the case here, will NEVER foster greater understanding.

You're absolutely right MorningSong the Bible is indeed a HISTORY BOOK!

It's wrong of you to assume that people are ignoring the Bible.

I have indeed turned to the Bible for answers. The FACT is that the Bible contains NO REASONABLE ANSWERS, NOR does it even contain CONSISTENT answers!

After having turned to the Bible for answers, these are my conclusions FROM HAVING READ THE BIBLE:

1. The God of Abraham never existed.

Why? Because the stories that depict his behavior are truly ABSURD.

Moreover, it's CRYSTAL CLEAR to me that those stories were written by a culture that was attempting to use a God as an excuse for the murdering of anyone who disagreed with them.

Just label your enemy a "Heathen" or a "Witch" and murder them in the NAME OF GOD!

I don't see any reason to believe that the creator of this unviverse would have sided with such a male chauvinistic bigoted society. It's simply ungodly and there is nothing divine about it whatsoever.

Also, the stories of creation conflict with physical reality.

But that's a minor detail in comparison with the blatant immorality of the biblical stories.

2. Jesus could not have been the son of the God of Abraham (even if that God had been real!)

Jesus totally denounced the teachings of the God of Abraham and instead taught the phiolosophy of Buddhism!

Why would God have his only begotten son teach the moral philosophy of a pagan religion that denounces his own teachings?

Clearly Jesus could not possible have been the Son of the God of Abraham.

2. Finally, the God of Abraham would have been a total mental case to teaching people to stone blasphemists to death, and then send his son into that mob and instruct his son to blaspheme his previous teachings.

In order to believe the Bible you MUST BELIEVE that God is a total lunatic who has absolutely NO WISDOM or even common sense AT ALL.

~~~

So yes, MorningSong, I've certainly given the Bible a shot, and the Bible has proven to me beyond any shadow of a doubt that it is the made up lies of mortal men.

Jesus too was a mortal man, but may not have actually lied. I suppose that depends on several things.

1. How much you can trust the authors of the New Testament to have quoted him correctly without adding their own demagogurey.

2. Whether or not you would consider it to be a lie for a pantheist to claim that they and the "Father of all creation" are one in the same.

3. Whether or not you actually beleive that Jesus taught, 'Ye are Gods' as the Bible claims.

4. Whether or not you can understand that when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM", is a valid pantheistic view that MOST CERTAINLY is NOT a claim to be the son of the God of Abraham. On the contrary it more of a pantheistic statement saying that before that ficticious God was even created by the minds of men "I AM" because the true nature of what we truly are is eternal MorningSong. That's the pantheisic view and belief.

~~~

So I've turned to the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK and see it as nothing more than a lame attempt of a male chauvinistic bigoted society trying to justify their horrid behavior by claiming that God told them to murder their enemies and be male chuavinistic toward their women.

Yes indeed, I totally accept the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK without a doubt, and it wasn't written or inspired by any God. IT was the work of bigoted male chauvinistic MEN.

As soon as anyone starts waffling on about rights, my whiskers start twitching...

Faith, facts, beliefs, rights....

Mythical whims, created by humankind to elevate themselves above something else...


Death has a habit of levelling everyone... the rest is so much guff created for nothing more than whimsy.

It is believed to be Lucy. You can not magically pull viable DNA from skeletal remains that are thought to be 3.2 million yeas old. That would have been the transition right there. There are a number of traits in the A afarensis skeleton which strongly reflect bipedalism. In overall anatomy, the pelvis is far more human-like than ape-like. The iliac blades are short and wide. Fossils indicate bipedalism around 5 to 8 million years ago, in the same general period where genetic studies suggest the lineage of chimpanzees and humans diverged. It adds up, Eljay. You can’t make unrealistic demands like harvesting DNA from bones this ancient.

Why is it that you expect these paleontologists and researchers in this field to jump through flaming hoops when all you require is faith and you keep raising the bar each time they show a little more credible evidence.

Well put.