No, little green men from Mars suck. they're really good at it too. Thats why I wanna go there. They don't charge for there way of life either!

That is a strawman fallacy and an appeal to emotion fallacy. It is both childish and uncalled for for you to take this tact. If you can't debate without throwing a little temper tantrum, then you are nothing more than a little boy pretending to be a man.

God doesn't trick anyone, but God did allow room for mankind to trick himself.

Many people don't believe humans are a result of evolution. Some of them are highly intelligent and trained scientists. The evidence isn't convincing to everyone, unless you are willing to fill in every blank with "God didn't do it". If you are willing to do that, then you are tricking yourself.

Oh no, children dying and starving and it's all God's fault.

Sorry, but you live here. Why is it God's responsibility to feed the children? God created the universe and gave us laws telling us to feed and care for the poor and needy. Until we are all doing everything we can to care for the sick, the orphans, the widows, the hungry, then we have no place in judging God. And without knowing how many people God blesses, you are even more poorly equipped to judge God. The truth is that God is often given the fault for our own failings. If humanity cared for it's own, then there wouldn't be any starving children. But here you sit blaming a God you don't believe in for a problem that you yourself could help remedy.

hmmmmmmmm, I think ( and when I pee stuff comes out of my penis ) therefore I am! "where I came from", is kinda a silly thing to get so upset about. unless your having trouble peeing!

So just because he created us he does not have to help us, your right but if my son is in trouble I help him.
I don't have to but I do.
And no I don't blame god because it would be silly for me to blame something that does not exist.
But, if this god was real he has already faild once had to kill everyone and start over.
HE killed every man woman and child for useing the free will HE gave them.

He created your parents before he created you. They help you, right? Or maybe your family? Or your friends? Or your girlfriend or your wife? Don't those people exist? God supplied you with a family, why do you need him to hold your hand. He did that for Adam and Adam did it for his own kids. Do you expect your grandfather to raise your kids? Then how can you think this line of reasoning is logical or reasonable?



Oh you rascal. You just have to try to get in your little jabs. You know what God did, but do you know why? Why is it "God failed" but then you clearly say that those people were using their "free will"? Doesn't that mean they CHOOSE to be the way they were? And if they choose to be that way, while their conscience warned them that it was wrong, how is it God's fault? Could you give me an insight into your thinking process? Tell me, would you keep giving money to someone who spent the money on drugs and prostitutes? Would you just keep dumping money into that bottomless pit or would you eventually cut that person off? God gives us our life and maintains that life. Why should God maintain the life of someone who chooses evil? Their hearts were turned to evil all of the time. They didn't once seen an old lady and help her across the street. According to the Bible, everyone was doing evil all of the time. Now if you try to reject that "Everyone was evil" you have proven yourself biased and arbitrary. Because there is no rational explanation for why one could reject God's reason for the flood as "ridiculous", but still insist that the flood happened. I know that is what passes for reasoning among those who are blinded by their own desire to destroy Christianity, but it's not reasonable or logical by any fair standard.

BE NICE! or I wil pray to the big ape in the sky to come down here and eat everyone!

I say the flood never happend, but if it did(like saying if thor realy did make thunder, it's hypothetical)then the reasoning is insane.
it becomes circular logic.
God knows everything so he knew ahead of time that his first experiment would go sour, yet he creates these people anyway with the foreknowlege he was going to kill them and they would all spend eternity burnning in hell.
And says he's a loving god.
And you say that that is reasonable and logical.
hmmmm

God knows everything that has, is or will happen. God doesn't have some magical power to know everything. God exists outside of time and God can observe everything happening in the universe. God knows everything, because he has seen everything. For God to know what would happen, that would mean it would have to happen. If God knew about the people's rebellion in Noah's day and moved to prevent it, it would mean God knew something which would never happen. Paradox.

agreed, that would be a paradox.
So what your saying is that god does not know the future. So there are things that god just does not know.
So how is he an ALL knowing god?

God, just like some people do not tell everything they know, or react to the things going on around them. I don't understand why any higher power would allow some to suffer and others to live in luxery who have never done a thing for the beterment of mankind. I don't even really care. I do know that ther is life after death only because I have been to the other side once. I will not even begin to try to relate that experiance to other people, cause they would not be able to understand it. I will however try to be nice to others when I choose to. It is my choice, and I do have the right to change my mind about what I believe in anytime I wish!

No, that's not what I'm saying.

We are trapped within time, God is outside of time. The universe began and ended in the same moment for God. His actions within the world were part of the creation process. Jesus is called the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", because the foundation of the world, the crucifixion of Jesus and the end of the world happened at the same moment for God, because God is not within time as we know it.

Imagine a car with all of the windows, except for the side ones, painted black. The car races along a straight track, so the occupants can only see what they are currently passing and must guess what is up ahead and dimly remember what they have already passed. That is what it is like to be a human stuck within the time stream. God is an outside observer. God is able to see what is behind, even with or ahead of the car equally.

ok I see where your comming from.

But what i'm saying is that god, instead of showing the people the error of their ways he decided to kill them and condemn them to hell.
But if god is infalible then it all went according to his plan.
So god knew before he even created them (or anyone for that matter)that they were going to go to hell.
So, god creates certain people for the sole purpose of being tortured for eternity.

They already knew the error of their ways, they had a conscience. They knew what they were doing was wrong. The Bible clearly says that their hearts were bent towards evil all the time. It was a choice. Besides, there is no mention of God sending prophets to the people in Noah's time, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The Old Testament is full of Prophets preaching to the Israelites and the Gentiles. It would actually be out of God's character for him to not send prophets to the people. But as good people got more and more rare, there would be fewer prophets. Until God only had Noah and charged him with building the Ark.



You are going off the tracks here...



No. If God KNEW that someone was going to rebel, then it is going to happen. If God KNEW that Soandso was going to rebel and prevented it, then God would KNOW a lie AND that would be a paradox. You have already agreed that it would be a paradox and therefore impossible.



2 Peter 3:9


You went off the tracks up there with "But if god is infalible then it all went according to his plan."

Mankind has free will. It doesn't matter how perfect God is or how powerful God is, it's impossible to give someone free will AND make them obey your will 100% of the time. Free will means that mankind chooses their own actions and are therefore guilty for their own sins. It was never God's plan for the flood to happen, but it was necessary due to the corruption of the world.

If you have children, you can plan for them to go to College, but they might have other plans. God's plan might have been for you to be a singer, but because you have free will you don't have to stay in line with God's plan for you.

I understand that, but if god knows the choices your going to make in your life before you are even born, then that is not realy free will. it is predestination.
If he is ALL knowing then he knows the choices you are going to make and therefor knows before you are even born if you will go to hell.

We choose death by not choosing Him. He doesn't kill us. He provided the ultimate sacrifice to conquer this death.

Yes. And He doesn't force us to do any different even tho He sees this. (Which makes me love Him more)

A free gift, no strings attached. The perfect one to keep in mind throughout the holiday season.

predestination http://www.answers.com/topic/predestination


I suppose if you use definition 3, then you are correct in a small way. Your life will unfold the way God knows due to your choices. But even then, definition 3 is straining the truth. God has no hand in anyone's choices in life, other than the fact that God tries to prod everyone towards him through their conscience.

But God's foreknowledge doesn't imply that you have no choices, quite the contrary, God only knows your choices because you will make them.

I think foreknowledge is a must more accurate word to describe God's prescience. God knows what you will do before you do it, BUT only because YOU will make those choices. Free will is not impinged in any way by God's knowledge.

realy? because he has killed thoughout the bible.
Do you want actual scripture? because I can show you god killing many many many times.
And ordering others to kill.

I bet everyone involved in those killings had a hard heart against God or were otherwise evil. So in essence, they didn't choose God. And since He could see they never would.. He was probably just taking them out of the way so that He could help those who DID choose Him.

ok so answer me this does god have the knowledge of wether we are going to go to hell or not before we are even born?
if not then how is he all knowing.
and if so then he creates people with the foreknolledge that they will go to hell.
and how is that not cruel?