Bull crap creative. I don't seek proof nor have I ever asked for proof from you because -I know you cannot provide it.

Neither do I claim to have proof of anything --like you do. But it is YOU who made the claim that you could "disprove" my statement. So I'm still waiting and will forever be waiting.

This is what you said Creative:



You have made the statement that you can and have provided proof. You have decided that it is true. So be it. You have spoken and you have decided.



a.)Evident to you, but not to me.

b.)Have you sifted through yours lately?

You also said:

The believed "falsehood" of which you speak may be your own ideas about what is real and that this is the true reality.

The truth may be that it is a dream-like holographic projection of the mind (a universal mind) and not the true reality at all.

It could be an enhanced dream. Quantum physics indicates that everything in this world is vibration. It is a world of light and sound.

But I don't seek to deny (for others) that this which has been manifested is "not real" or should be disregarded as "just a dream."

Only that reality may not be what you think it is, but you can declare it to be "real" if you choose. That is your choice, your right and your will.

I can agree with you that we have been equipped with the ability to sense pain and pleasure and to see and feel the illusion of spacetime to such an extreme point that we certainly are compelled to believe it is all very real.

It certainly seems real and if a manifesting observer (you) wants to declare with all certainty that it is all "real" then I can not argue with that declaration because that is your right to do so.

You have the right and the will, Creative, to declare this world to be the ultimate reality and to be "real" with all the certainty you can muster.

You have decided it is. That is your conclusion, and this is your reality. You can give good examples for your conclusions. You can pinch yourself and give yourself pain to prove it to yourself that this is not a dream and that this is all very real.

But I am not convinced by pleasure and pain, that this is the ultimate reality or that the structure of reality is what you think it is, nor is it as stable as you think it is.

It certainly feels very real, and it is a marvelous illusion! A work of art. A fantastic manifestation of the mind with fascinating detail. But I doubt that it is the ultimate reality. But that's just me. I have the right to doubt your declaration of truth.

JB

P.S.

Scientists will have to discover a way to measure the basic building blocks of matter by locating and measuring an actual particle if they are to convince me that this reality is not a holographic projection of light and made up of pure vibrations and frequencies.

Yes he is. If he were truly deciding the pain was not real to him, then he would not feel the pain.

Have you ever been in a really terrible accident? Many accident victims in real bad accidents are removed from their bodies and they never do feel any of the pain. They wake up in the hospital sometimes, with no memory of the accident or the pain.

Once the worst of the pain is over, they regain their ability (or choice) to feel pain. Recovering is often more painful than the accident itself.

The reason for pain is for information. Your body is telling you that something is wrong.

JB

I seek the ultimate reality and to know the true nature or structure of this we call "reality."

I don't seek to deny (for others) or convince others that this world is "not real" or should be disregarded as "just a dream."

The individual observer decides what is real... to them. That is his right and his will to do so.

It was manifested for a purpose to be and experience things and life and pleasure and pain. It is a marvelous miracle of manifestation of that consciousness from which it comes. It is a wonder and an amazing work of the creative Prime source.

We made it as real as possible. We stabilized it as much as we could. We gave it duration and integrity. We convinced ourselves it is real. We continue to create this reality with our collective thoughts.

All because we want to exist. I want to exist. I do exist. What would be the point of existence without things and others? What would be the point of only being self aware in a pool of no-thing?

To be or not to be. That is what it is all about.

But mankind (maybe even scientists) will discover the true structure of this reality and when that happens, he will have the power to alter it any way he pleases. (This may not be a good thing, if this technology arrives before spirutual enlightenment does.)

JB

Spiritual pantheism is entirely based on the that life is but a dream.

I think Creative is just having a nervous breakdown because he can't handle the fact that universe is not the Classical Newtonian picture.

So almost like a child taking a temper tantrum he's screaming, "No no no! It can't be true! It can't be true! It's all Bull****! I won't hear of it! I won't!"

Then then he just covers his ears and eyes and hopes all this quantum ghostly stuff will just go away.

This is a normal reaction for just about everyone who begins to exam quantum physics.

Richard Feynman once had this to say:

"I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics. Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, "But how can it be like that?" because you will go "down the drain" into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that."

Creative wants to go back to Classical Newtonian Physics with a nice well-defined universe.

This debate serves as a perfect example of where Classic Newtonian Physics and Philosophy can't agree. They aren't even on the same page.

Only quantum physics can bridge this gap. It has reached the bottom of the fabric of the universe, but nobody understands it.

Nice try...

JB...

Blah... blah... blah...

Just because you cannot understand, does not mean that proof is not or has not been had.

You lie, and by the way...

Are you really making a claim, or is that not real?



Reality is independent of observation.

There is no substance behind what you say, and no reason to believe that it is true.

That which constitutes a true assertion is had by reason.



James...

Do not kid yourself into believing that you have an accurate assessment of who I am, or what bothers me...

Blah blah blah? Well now that is really scientific .



You are the one who does not understand. The point I am making is that the "individual observer" decides what is real and what is not real.

You, as an individual, have decided that this reality is "real." Perhaps you have decided that this is the ultimate reality. Good for you. It only serves as a perfect example (and proof) of what I just said.

The individual observer decides what is real and what is not real.

Your "proof" is good enough for some, and good enough for you perhaps. It is just a story about a hypothetical boy who got poked with a stick and felt pain.

That is not proof that this reality is real. Sorry.



That is for you to decide. You are the observer and you have the right to decide what is real.




I'm not sure your above statement is what we are talking about.

My statement is that "the individual observer decides what is real." People also decide what they think is true or false. Individuals also decide what they will believe.

Anyone can disagree with them if they want.

I may (if I want) decide to reject your declaration of what you think is real or reality, or I may (if I want) agree with what you declare is real or reality.

It is completely my right to decide what I declare is real.

It does not matter who agrees or disagrees. Everyone in the entire world can disagree with me, but it is still my right to decide and believe what is reality and what is real or not real.



These declarations are your opinions and you certainly have a right to them. These are your beliefs and your reality. You have a right to them.

JB


Does an “observer” require a physical body in order to observe and manifest?



So is the brain merely part of that which the observer has chosen to manifest? If the observer has complete control over all subjective reality, why would it care if the body felt pain? Why would it care if the body is destroyed? In fact why would an observer allow it’s own personal physical manifestation to be controlled by physiological or psychological malfunction.

You have already explained that the brain and body function mechanically, and that mind is something separate, so if the body functions in error, who caused the error and why would you want to maintain a life in that body?

Furthermore, what purpose is a protection mechanism, like pain, if one has control over what they manifest?



If observer (mind) manifested a physical dream state and then deceived itself into believing it was reality by denying it, why would you seek to find what you hide from yourself? Sounds rather like two personalities at war. But if one holds the truth, why is it hidden and why are the two in the same manifestation of the physical form of YOU?



What purpose do you have of money JB? Why bother working for money when you can simply manifest what ever you choose. In fact, now that you know so much about the workings of this particular dream of yours, why not simply choose to let this body go and come back filthy rich. Surely you can experience FAR MORE as a rich person than as a working class person.

You see, your beliefs about what you think is reality, rarely coincide with the beliefs you say you maintain. You are not a profit, you are not a scientist, you are not rich, you feel pain.

You read what others say, but you alone decide the validity of what you’ve read. There is a very circular thought pattern because if you had knowledge, in the first place, you would not need to read to find out what you were seeking.

But you do read, and then you create a science fictional version of what you WANT to believe. This is great, if you are content, but you can’t dangle your creative science fictional theories in front of others and tell them that just because YOU think a certain way about YOUR reality means that everyone’s reality is just like yours.

This is also circular thinking. For if we do all manifest our subjective realities, they are ours and what you see of them is not the truth, it is only what YOU see.

The closest I can get to explaining this pattern to you, is to tell you to look at the fundamentalist Christians, who use the Bible to support the Bible. You are doing the same thing.



“The truth may be…. And not the true reality at all.” What does that mean. What is true, what is reality? Is it the same or different from individual to individual?



“Quantum physics indicates that everything in this world is vibration. It is a world of light and sound.” What does that have to do, exactly, with an “observer”(mind) that creates a body for the purpose of experimentation, but then does not put in place fail-safes?



But you have done so several times by indicating that EVERYONE has the ability to deny their pain. That pain is a symptom of body and has nothing to do with the observer (mind). You have also done the same thing on many other threads. Declaring that EVERYONE can heal the ills of the physical body, they simply choose not to.

Maybe in your reality this is true FOR YOU, but you cannot make it true for others, UNLESS you are saying each individual you have ever come in contact with is purely an invention (manifestation) or your mind creating its own reality. Is that what you do, invent people to interact with?

JB – in your reality you are all knowing, all powerful, in complete control of YOU. But from my point of view you are just another fundamentalist, declaring to others the truth of THEIR reality based on YOUR own beliefs. Proving the Bible with the Bible.

With all due respect Michael I'll kid myself into believing anything I want, just like you do.

Red asked:



No.

But to function within a physical environment the observer needs a physical body.

The observer will manifest or evolve into a body that is compatible and functional with the environment it is entering.

The environment may have been previously manifested by other observers as it may be an agreed upon reality. Creatures will develop sensory organs in order to interpret and function within their environment. That is called evolution.

This is certainly confusing. First we’re in a holographic world created by the vibrations of quantum physics and now we have evolved in a physical world that was created by other observers.

Let me ask you a few questions – can these observers – perceive other observers when not in physical form?

Whatever your answer is, how do you know it?

How does evolution fit into this theory? If a manifestation of self is conceived by an observer, why is it necessary for that manifestation to evolve to FIT into some pre-existent physical realm?

Again, whatever your answer is, how do you know it?

Red wrote:



I have never declared that I am "all knowing" or "all powerful" or in "complete control" of anything to include myself even in my own personal reality.

I believe that the potential for that exists, and there may be some spiritual beings who have reached some of these heights, but I have never claimed that I have reached that potential or that everyone else has the ability to do these things, only that the potential is there for them to do these things.

I may have, in the past declared my reality as "truth," but I realize now, that it is my own truth and that every individual decides what is true and what is real for them and I have no right to argue with them about what they decide is their truth or their reality.

But I think I still have the right to express what I believe. You can agree or disagree. That is your right and will to do.

If you and everyone else think I am trying to force my beliefs on you, then I would suggest that you could just stop reading my posts.

To call me "just another fundamentalist, declaring to others the truth of THEIR reality" is just not true.

I declare my truth, and my reality, not theirs. If you are not awake enough to realize that, then wake up. People always will decide for themselves what they believe is real and what is not.

I do not know the answers to these questions, and I am not sure what premise you are even coming from. (I am not "all knowing" as you seem to think I think I am.)

This reality is made up of vibrations and frequencies. The sensory organs are manifested (or designed or evolved) in order to interpret these vibrations.

Sound, sight, taste, vision, touch, are all vibrations. What we perceive of this mass of vibrations in this world depends completely on our sensory organs that we have manifested.

A squid at the bottom of the ocean perceives reality completely different than we do. A snail does too. Each and every creature on this earth perceives reality according to its developed sensory organs. These sensory organs are for the sole purpose of interpreting vibrations and frequencies which include light and sound etc.

Red wrote:



Money itself represents an energy exchange. All interactions between entities, people, animals, objects involve an energy exchange.

Personally, I have no need of money itself, but rather than bartering for everything, money is a convenience. You can't eat money, but you can exchange it for food.

If you are suggesting that I have ever claimed that I can just think of something and like magic it appears out of thin air on the spot, then you have not read much of anything I have written or any of the books I have recommended, and you do not understand the law of attraction.

-The observer is not the "mind."
-The observer is, at its core, a unit of awareness.

The statement above refers to what this reality is actually made of, which is vibrations. Vibrations translate into light and sound and matter and energy.

This "stuff" is what is used to manifest "things."

These "things" are manifested within (the universal) mind.

The universal mind is the manifestation of consciousness or awareness ~~ which is the observer.

Disclaimer: These are all my personal opinions and are not meant to represent anyone else's truth or reality.

(Does that work for you?)

(You will have to explain what you mean by the fail-safe question. What are you talking about? Can you give an example?)

The universe is evolving toward the Omega Point.

So Mirror, please describe the omega point.

i think what she means JB, is that connection of the brain 's pain acknowledgement are letting us know when doing something like sticking our hand into a fire it sends a signal to the brain which tells us to respond by moving our hand out of the fire -[fail-safe] - meaning an automatic response not dependent on your theories.

Now you don’t believe you control your fate? You don’t believe you can manifest a healing in your own body. You don’t believe you can deny your pain? Why then do you tell OTHERS that you believe a 5 year old “decides” to get hit by a car or to have an illness of any kind when YOU are not capable of controlling these things in your own life?



Here we go again. Supporting the Bible with the Bible. You think – but you have no proof. You believe but you can’t say why?



You have as much right as any other Bible thumping, fundamentalist, to state what you believe. And people will continue to read it and will continue to ask for your “proof”. So be prepared to suffer their thorny questions and their ever present requests for your proof for such beliefs. .



You don’t know the answers? Where did you get the information that supports your beliefs to begin with? Did you make them up, pick and choose from other theories only that which fits without seeking any validity at all? Then you tell people this is what you believe and get angry when they question you and you have no answers. What’s that about?



You sound awful sure of that – when even the science behind your pick & choose concepts is not as clear as you are. The Bible is a matter of interpretation as well. Why is your belief different?



What you believe and what you claim are rarely in sync. In fact what you believe seems to change depending on the focus of the conversation. You do have a tendency to make every living creature seem a rather ridiculous and stupid affair, while the mind or “observer” at the helm in just in it for the kicks.

But the kicks seem to be masochistic or even sadomasochistic considering the suffering that is inflicted by merely having a physical manifestation. There is no other purpose I can fathom for a mental creature to seek out a physical form such as ours, for what knowledge could possibly be gained by knowing physical pain, when such pain holds no value to a non-physical creature?



So in your reality you never said that a 5 year old makes a decision to feel pain?
You are right, people will decide for themselves what to believe. They can believe in the Bible, in magic, in spiritual forces, in the duality of mind and body or that thinking outside the box means they are excused from limitations. Sometimes outside the box is just the space outside the old box and inside the new one.

In your reality YOU are awake, in mine you are dreaming.


The disclaimer:
These are my opinions only, as I tell every Bible thumper, I cannot begin to disprove all your claims, I have not even read your bible or the laws of attraction.