Not from me

Yes, everyone dreams. We have all manifested or 'created' dreams with our minds. How our minds create three dimensional space is not yet understood. Why three dimensional and not more like a movie? Why and how are we placed inside of the dream instead of just watching it like an observer who watches a flat screen movie?

Yes I have had dreams that have continued for three or four nights in a row, which gives them what I call more "duration" and "stability." I even became very attached to the people in that dream who seemed like real people. When the dreams ended, I really did miss those people.

The similarities between the basic structure of our dreams created by our minds and this reality have many similarities.

1.) Creates three dimensional space, people, landscapes
2.) Puts us inside of this three dimensional space operating in a body.
3.) Has some duration. (Length of time)
4.) Can be somewhat manipulated and controlled ~if it is a lucid dream.
4.) Sounds and senses from the outside (your reality) are blocked.
5.) The five senses are possible within a dream that match the dream scape, not your true reality: Touch, taste, sight, sound, smell, emotions.

You dismiss it as "just a dream" but this dream reality has everything your current reality has only is less intense with a shorter duration.

You stated that you don't think I am correct. I would like to hear your reasoning.

What I am suggesting is that this reality is a dream-like structure and is projected in a similar way by the collective Universal Mind...or a larger more encompassing kind of mind in the same manner that our individual mind projects our three dimensional dreams.

You don't think I am correct but where is the flaw in my logic? Why do you think I am not correct in this suggestion?

If my idea is totally flawed, then do you have a more logical and more scientific explanation to the nature of this reality?

Anyone?

JB

Look, you might as well write a book and make some money.

What you are suggesting is way beyond what our current physics can explore. You have no hope of making any kind of testable hypothesis with your level of education and math skills, me either, neither can 99.9% of physicists.

So challenging people to prove you wrong or come up with a better theory is silly to the nth degree.

The best theory is that we are biological that this biology is built on the standard model of particle physics, and that making theories that do not add to our knowledge, or make predictions as to observations that can prove your hypothesis does nothing to advance our knowledge.

This is why Max Tegmark gets(politely)made fun of by the physics community, not because he isn't smart or good at his job, but because at this point this kind of reasoning is still sci-fi.

Let Ed Witten keep at M theory for a few more decades and who knows. If we can explain the fundamentals of particle physics merge that with QM, then we might be on the right track to really talk about how reality is shaped from the bottom up.

________________

Im not criticizing your ideas, just putting it into perspective.

Not me personally, but this line of thinking is what drives scientists to explore the quantum soup for answers to the nature of the structure of matter, space and time.



Not at all because what I seek are ideas that challenge the imagination. "Imagination rules the world."



I disagree and have to laugh. Imagination, curiosity, idea, theory, speculation are the leading edge and reason for science.

If nobody cared or wanted to know, there would be no science. An idea leads a scientist down a new path of discovery.

Particle physics still has not been ironed out. Quantum physics has touched the bottom of form and function of the universe and people are still scratching their heads.

If a person reads my ideas and rejects them I want to hear why and what they have come up with that is so different or correct. Perhaps they have traveled too far down one path of thinking and they can't back up and look at things a little differently. Perhaps they are stuck in a rut looking a particle physics and biology to consider something else.

If I could cause one of my own personal dreams to have more duration and integrity and to become as stable as this reality, I am sure I would find a bunch of people in there who were trying to figure out the nature of that reality by looking at the light and sound reflections that everyone is seeing (per our agreements.)




Never heard of him. ..But how often in this reality have we eventually found that Sci Fi has become scientific fact?



This is what I think will happen soon. Sooner than you think actually.

________________



I know. I am not claiming them to be fact or provable. I am drawing an outline of my current considerations.

What I am looking for are new ideas or alternate concepts and models of reality that make sense within this framework.

Anyone can say I am wrong, or crazy, or unrealistic, or delusional. I could be. But I say to them, do you have any better all inclusive theories?



JB

Bad, bad, bad philosophers! <rubbing their noses in it> I thought you were houstrained! See how you made Bushi have to come in and clean up the mess. Now you just git outside and don't come back in until you can control yourselves! Bad philosophers!

I dont know if this is relevant, maybe to Tribo. I think one possible explanation for why we dont normally find it an easy process to remember our dreams is because they purposely drop back into the subconscious.

A reason for this would be if they didnt and they mixed, then say you had a dream about ice skating but you had never been ice skating in your entire life prior. If someone then asked you if you had ever gone ice skating, you would answer yes.


I dont know if that is true but it sounds like a possible theory. I might be off on the exact details however.

Reality......which one?

Whose reality?

Observer....awareness...reality...illusion...dreaming....

Says who?

And why?

Science has it's place in finding labels, conditions, explanations, theories and all sorts of blah blah blah...

From the science of the outer universe to the science of the inner universe....

A simple thing for all and any to do....who is looking out from inside your skull? Who is looking out from those holes in the bone called eye sockets?

And while you were doing that....who was watching you..(observing you) look out of those eye sockets?

I am so lost in attempting to understand and assimilate this whole desire to conquer and to OWN everything utilising labels and terms...

Language has it's place, for expressing and sharing sensation with others....but sometimes I find it over-rated.

Dreams.... from electric synapses randomly firing to the great whoo doo guru unknown, complete with ghosty hooo hooo sounds and the rattling of chains.


Quite frankly why do you all give a flippin' toss anyway?

Superiority is an illusion... and ego is the great strangle weed of this experience.



***************************************

Ahhhh!! I feel better! Amazing what a good foot stomp will do for one.

Sounds like as good a working hypothesis as any, and better than most I've heard.

Jeannie's view is that there is no qualitative difference between the waking reality and the dreaming reality. Only quantitative ones. So if one did in fact "ice skate" while dreaming but never did while awake, then the only way to reconcile the two is to postulate that one simply forgot how to ice skate, just as one (mostly) forgets anything else having to do with dreams.

Works for me.

Well we know that people will often relegate memories of trauma to the subconscious mind. That is why hypnosis can be extremely effective in "unleashing" these repressed memories. Whether or not something took place in reality or it was merely a dream state can become quite gray however. Also, sometimes a trauma will be "changed" and re-adapted by the brain. Perhaps someone saw a parent or a loved one brutally murdered (example only) so in order to keep that memory at bay they will change it to being a fear of alligators coming into the house or something equally as strange or absurd.

Just a note on the use of hypnotism.

I wouldn't recommend hypnotism as a tool to unleash repressed memories. It is possible to implant false memories using hypnosis. And the fact that neither the sunconscious mind, nor hypnosis, is much more reliable than alchemy, indicates that there is no way to determine whether an allegedly repressed memory was really a "true" memory, or one that was unknowingly implanted by the hypnosis itself.

Yes I would agree Sky and there have been many cases where people have been wrongly accused of crimes (sometimes decades after the fact) and abuse due to supposed "repressed memories" being unlocked. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt and fully reviewed. The same can apply to lie detectors and that is why they are currently non admissible in the course of criminal trial. Some people can actually beat them and borderline personality disorder in particular has been known to be quite capable and effective in accomplishing this.

Hello Skyhook,

During the time when Peggy Flemming was winning the Olympics with her ice skating skills, I spent an entire night ice skating just like her. It was the most amazing dream I ever had in my life. It was as if I were her ...in my dreams.

The odd part of this particular dream is that I was not that interested in ice skating, or the Olympics. I had no reason to be having such a dream. I had never skated in my life, even with roller skates. But it was a wonderful dream experience.

One would wonder where I got the knowledge to skate that well in the dream but it was as if the information was just there.

Because of this dream, I took up roller skating. We did not have any ice skating facilities in our town. Now one might think that having done this as good as Peggy Flemming in my dreams I might be able to do it in this reality.

Nope. It was in my head, and I knew what I wanted to do, but I had to coordinate my mind with my body which had never done it before.

I practiced for a few months and I was just beginning to feel confident, skating backwards etc. when the ice skating rink closed. I never skated again.

Now I am too old. I don't want to break my hip. But I still wish I could do it and dream of getting a pair of roller blades and sailing down the sidewalk.

But my town does not have good sidewalks...

But I still feel that desire inside of me to skate like Peggy Flemming because of that dream.

JB

hi G, sorry been gone most of the day and then Tryk or Trt'r's - not many this year though only about 25, so lotssssssssss of candy left over - hahahaha

what a shame - [says the candyholic]


As i sit here calmly eating a mini - dark chocolate milky way with smooth nougat and caramel canter yummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


I have read your insightful response, and pondered upon your statements and meanings contained therein. I have decided that i will, in turn, respond to them one by one over the next several years as i come to a fuller understanding of those things you so wonderfully express here within your concepts posted.


First will be start with this:

JeannieBean/gloria/Jackie,and other alter-ego's all say::



"""Yes, everyone dreams. We have all manifested or 'created' dreams with our minds. How our minds create three dimensional space is not yet understood.

""Why three dimensional and not more like a movie?""

Why and how are we placed inside of the dream instead of just watching it like an observer who watches a flat screen movie?"""



I must say that many of my dreams were like movies where i participated back and forth as an observer in some parts and the player in others. And at times all as the watcher and not the player. not recently though. so in that sense i must disagree with you. for some reason i find myself able to manipulate my dreams very easily and always know for the biggest part that "it is a dream" not reality as when awake. i have heard others say or tell me that it's OK to have dreams of falling as long as you wake up before you hit the ground - not!!!!!!

i have hit the ground, maneuvered so i would land on my feet[without any damage], and smashed my face head first into the cement with not so much as an ounce of pain or discomfort, In fact i got very use to not dieing in my dreams and did things that others say means f you do dream it you'll die. so its not true for me.

Other times as i stated i have felt pain only to wake up because my arm or leg was asleep or i had my face buried in a pillow and wasn't breathing well, or some other discomfort. I have eaten and smoked and drank tasting what i was eating, i have woken up within a dream that i was dreaming while still asleep[which is quite weird]what i call a double-dream - i have flown, went way under water without scuba many times where i was able to breath water and even teach others how to do it. i have swam in the air by running and jumping up and then moving my arms like in swimming, that re-occurred a lot when i was younger. I have been to other planets, solar systems, galaxies, and have known many life forms that i created in my dreams, but never have i dreamed of being someone who had another life before this one as in things you and others state. And that's why i don't believe in reincarnation as many do - as acitive as my imagination is to me it seems if such a thing was going on i would have had some inclination of it existing if nowhere else but in my dreams, but its never been - "i have always been me" in some shape or form and have never been called or named anything else but me. anyway, as to dreams not being like movies your wrong - they most certainly can be and are. i hope you enjoyed my answer as much as i did your questions, i will think on the next and get back to you sometime in the future my lady - have an nice evening -hachacha

No really, not making fun or saying your wasting your time, I love your ideas, I just think you could do something productive with it.

WRITE THE DAM BOOK ALREADY!

and put some grumpy physics student in there while your at it.

I can't remember any dream where I was watching it as a flat screen movie. I was always in the middle of a three dimensional environment.

I have flown in the air, swam under the water, played the part of other characters (not Gloria Jean but some other character.)

My lucid dreams are in full color with lots of detail down to twigs of grass and grains of sand. I usually just look with amazement at the dream world I created and wonder how I did that.

JB

you didn't / don't.

If my personal dreams are not manifested from my mind, then from where did they come?

oooops!!! sorry,

i thought i was responding to "JACKIE"

(I know this was addressed to JB and Tribo’s dialog, but I’m going to hijack my thread back. )

The problem with that is “science” cannot, by its very definition, determine the nature of “free will”. The very basis of determinism is that there is no such thing as “free will”.

You have said that to be valuable to science, a proposition must be falsifiable. But is the fundamental postulate of science (determinism) falsifiable itself? Is there any way to test whether or not an effect is not the result of a prior cause?

So you’re absolutely right. None of these philosophical propositions can ever be either proved or disproved by science. The very idea of trying to use science to support a philosophy is like trying to use color theory to support art. It’s backwards. Color theory is a subset of art.

So I say – from the philosophical viewpoint – if reality is not created by agreement, then show me something real, which no one has ever agreed with.


“Best” is a highly relative term. Personally, I think your “we are biology” theory is the worst theory because it denies the very concepts of “personal identity” and “free will”.


May I name the grumpy physics student Chivalry William Group? )

Boy I sure wish I could write a book. I'm just not the book-writing type. It takes me hours just to compose forum posts sometimes. Writing a book would take centuries.